Who played 9ball... before Texas Express rules was the norm?

[lfigueroa]

On a video he made in 1980 he says he got tired, not sore feet. Still, the "Man" himself said he didn't miss.

I believe we've been over this a few times.

Yes, he said that on the video, perhaps in a print interview also. But, the version in his autobiography is generally considered the accurate account --- he missed. Who knows why he said what he said on the video but we do know that Willie suffered from Alzheimer's in his later years.

Lou Figueroa

 

[sjm]

I grew up with the "shootout" version of nine ball and didn't care for it. Texas Express brought more defense, more two way shots, and a greater penalty for position poorly played. More importantly, Texas Express has more pace.

May the "shootout" version of nine ball rest in peace.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

I grew up with the "shootout" version of nine ball and didn't care for it. Texas Express brought more defense, more two way shots, and a greater penalty for position poorly played. More importantly, Texas Express has more pace.

May the "shootout" version of nine ball rest in peace.

There is also another way to look at being "Penalized" How many times has a guy missed a shot and got lucky and hooked you or played a poor safety and lucked into a safe against you? Or playing on one of those crooked tables and loose whitey due to a bad roll. Roll out at least gives you a alternative to bad rolls... Loosing a hill hill match to win a tournament to a guy who gets lucky on one shot in the set ruins 9 ball...

 

[8ballEinstein]

I remember when most head to head. match ups were using the "shootout" rules even as one-foul BIH was the norm for pool tournamnets. Back then, I remember calling it "Vegas rules" before the term Texas Express came along.

 

[Saturated Fats]

Before the one-foul-ball-in-hand rules came out (TE rules), 9 ball was played where you could "roll out" on any shot, rather than just the first shot after the break. Your opponent could take the shot as is, or give it back to the shooter (whence he would have to make a legal hit, or it would be ball in hand anywhere). Any money balls would be spotted back up, if they went down early, until they were pocketed in turn. Other illegally pocketed balls typically would not be spotted up, unless it was the ball before the money.

What he said, but I don't think we spotted money balls if they went down early unless it was a ring game and we agreed to pay for money balls pocketed more than once. This was the sixties in Northern California.

 

[jackpot]

We played spot the ball before the any money ball, on a scratch. And also spot
the ball before a money ball on a bad hit by the one giving the spot. in other
words if I was giving some one the seven I could not just shoot the 8 in as a roll
out, turning the seven spot into the 8. No foul it's a roll out but 8 would spot.
All balls behind the line go down but money ball and ball before money ball,
on a scratch. If both were behind the line only ball before. We also played ahead
sets. Everyone seems to think this would take forever but there was not as much
of a luck factor and the best player or the match up man always won. And it wasn't
like we had anything else we had or wanted to do anyway.
jack

 

[sjm]

There is also another way to look at being "Penalized" How many times has a guy missed a shot and got lucky and hooked you or played a poor safety and lucked into a safe against you? Or playing on one of those crooked tables and loose whitey due to a bad roll. Roll out at least gives you a alternative to bad rolls... Loosing a hill hill match to win a tournament to a guy who gets lucky on one shot in the set ruins 9 ball...

Playing well in any sport means no more than winning your share and succeeding your share of the time. Good shots are usually, but not always, rewarded, and the same is true of opponents' errors.

Hitting the ball hard in baseball guarantees nothing, nor does making a good pitch, but both will, in the long run, give you greater success. Some of your good attempts will meet with failure and some of your poor ones will meet with success, and so it is for your opponents.

In golf, landing your drive in the rough works sometimes and sometimes you skull the ball onto the green near the hole. Sometimes you hit a tree and your ball ends up in the fairway with a perfect lie, while other times you hit the ball perfectly and end up in a divot with a poor lie. Poor shots will sometimes win the hole, but in the long-run, executing shots well is what will get you the results. Some of your good attempts will meet with failure and some of your poor ones will meet with success, and so it is for your opponents.

In football, a perfectly thrown pass will sometimes deflect off a player and be intercepted, and other times a poorly thrown ball will be caught. A poorly kicked line drive punt will sometimes go for 90 yards, while a good one may be returned for a touchdown. Some of your good attempts will meet with failure and some of your poor ones will meet with success, and so it is for your opponents.

Part of the fascination of these sports is the luck factor, the unexpected result in which the conventional logic does not hold. These sports make no attempt to eliminate some of these random ebbs and flows because they realize that it's part of what make the sport fun to watch. Watching the best cope with the ebbs and flows in performance and luck is, to me, what I most love about sports.

Pool is no different from these other sports in that god performance is rewarded over the long haul, but not necessarily in the present. For all the screaming about luck, the same guys win most of the tournaments despite the fact that "slop counts" in nearly all events, and in every big event. Those who execute well over the long haul are the ones racking up the major titles.

The cost of allowing a push out on any shot is eliminating pool's most interesting shot, the two way shot. It's a steep price to pay for unnecessary elimination of some of the things that make pool truly fascinating.

 

[garczar]

One-foul was invented for ONE reason: speed-up tournaments. Do you gamble? If so try playing two-shot and then some one-foul and see which one allows you more control over your $$$.

 

[Pushout]

As far as a two way shot being "interesting", I call BS! If you're good enough to make the shot, call it. If you miss allow you opponent to give it back to you if or give up ball in hand. I couldn't begin to tell you how many shots I've seen, at all levels, result in a hook that the uninitiated thought was two way but in reality was just a miss, sometimes by a diamond or more.
At the very least, remove the so-called two way shot from the game and improve the game enormously!

 

[RCLane]

After reading this first page of the this thread. I like Certain things about both systems. However, the old way makes it a game of more skills than just what's good for TV an Commercial Breaks

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk

 

[Colonel]

As far as a two way shot being "interesting", I call BS! If you're good enough to make the shot, call it. If you miss allow you opponent to give it back to you if or give up ball in hand. I couldn't begin to tell you how many shots I've seen, at all levels, result in a hook that the uninitiated thought was two way but in reality was just a miss, sometimes by a diamond or more.

At the very least, remove the so-called two way shot from the game and improve the game enormously!

So let me get this straight. You're shooting to make the ball and get shape on the next ball. You jaw the ball, have perfect shape on the next ball but you missed jawing the ball. Your opponent can't see the ball you jawed from where the cueball lies. You think he should have the right to give it back to you? Ummmmm, no, this doesn't make the game better.

 

[dabarbr]

I just went through this whole thread. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that there were two ways to play push out nine ball.
Most popular was ball in hand after any two fouls. He pushes out and you now have the option to shoot or give it back. Either way who ever shoots must satisfy their turn with a legal hit, if not, then it's ball in hand for the next player.

The second way to play push out was to play two fouls by the same person then it would be ball in hand.
In this version if you pushed out your opponent now has the option to give it back to you, or take the shot himself. However since he is not on a foul he can re-push if he wanted to. If he in turn pushes out then In that case both of you are on one foul and now he has the option to give it back to you or take the shot himself. Whoever shoots must now make a legal shot since you're both on one foul.

Playing the second way, two fouls by the same person, changed the dynamics of the game. The superior shot maker looses a good bit of their edge.
They push to their strength which is shot making, you then re-push and try to force them into playing a safe. Beat many top players playing like this.

 

[Pushout]

So let me get this straight. You're shooting to make the ball and get shape on the next ball. You jaw the ball, have perfect shape on the next ball but you missed jawing the ball. Your opponent can't see the ball you jawed from where the cueball lies. You think he should have the right to give it back to you? Ummmmm, no, this doesn't make the game better.

I disagree. What you just described is the very definition of the two way shot. Again, this is on a called shot.

 

[Colonel]

I disagree. Again, this is on a called shot.

Ok, but 9 ball, played as intended & established isn't a call shot game. Now granted over the last 15 years or so a million people have tinkered with the format of this game when they should just leave it alone and play something else versus trying to change the game into something it isn't or wasn't intended to be. Look where that's led it.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

Playing well in any sport means no more than winning your share and succeeding your share of the time. Good shots are usually, but not always, rewarded, and the same is true of opponents' errors.

Hitting the ball hard in baseball guarantees nothing, nor does making a good pitch, but both will, in the long run, give you greater success. Some of your good attempts will meet with failure and some of your poor ones will meet with success, and so it is for your opponents.

In golf, landing your drive in the rough works sometimes and sometimes you skull the ball onto the green near the hole. Sometimes you hit a tree and your ball ends up in the fairway with a perfect lie, while other times you hit the ball perfectly and end up in a divot with a poor lie. Poor shots will sometimes win the hole, but in the long-run, executing shots well is what will get you the results. Some of your good attempts will meet with failure and some of your poor ones will meet with success, and so it is for your opponents.

In football, a perfectly thrown pass will sometimes deflect off a player and be intercepted, and other times a poorly thrown ball will be caught. A poorly kicked line drive punt will sometimes go for 90 yards, while a good one may be returned for a touchdown. Some of your good attempts will meet with failure and some of your poor ones will meet with success, and so it is for your opponents.

Part of the fascination of these sports is the luck factor, the unexpected result in which the conventional logic does not hold. These sports make no attempt to eliminate some of these random ebbs and flows because they realize that it's part of what make the sport fun to watch. Watching the best cope with the ebbs and flows in performance and luck is, to me, what I most love about sports.

Pool is no different from these other sports in that god performance is rewarded over the long haul, but not necessarily in the present. For all the screaming about luck, the same guys win most of the tournaments despite the fact that "slop counts" in nearly all events, and in every big event. Those who execute well over the long haul are the ones racking up the major titles.

The cost of allowing a push out on any shot is eliminating pool's most interesting shot, the two way shot. It's a steep price to pay for unnecessary elimination of some of the things that make pool truly fascinating.

Yes, but changing 9 ball to TE they didn't attempt to eliminate luck, they increased it. Taking 2 shot out eliminated a subtle strategy in the game that they replaced with blind luck. I guess folks who prefer to watch more of a luck type game would much prefer they play with the Cyclops cue ball on the TV tables instead of the using the measle. That way at any random time you might get a skid costing you the match... Now that's entertainment...

 

[Teacherman]

Playing well in any sport means no more than winning your share and succeeding your share of the time. Good shots are usually, but not always, rewarded, and the same is true of opponents' errors.

Hitting the ball hard in baseball guarantees nothing, nor does making a good pitch, but both will, in the long run, give you greater success. Some of your good attempts will meet with failure and some of your poor ones will meet with success, and so it is for your opponents.

In golf, landing your drive in the rough works sometimes and sometimes you skull the ball onto the green near the hole. Sometimes you hit a tree and your ball ends up in the fairway with a perfect lie, while other times you hit the ball perfectly and end up in a divot with a poor lie. Poor shots will sometimes win the hole, but in the long-run, executing shots well is what will get you the results. Some of your good attempts will meet with failure and some of your poor ones will meet with success, and so it is for your opponents.

In football, a perfectly thrown pass will sometimes deflect off a player and be intercepted, and other times a poorly thrown ball will be caught. A poorly kicked line drive punt will sometimes go for 90 yards, while a good one may be returned for a touchdown. Some of your good attempts will meet with failure and some of your poor ones will meet with success, and so it is for your opponents.

Part of the fascination of these sports is the luck factor, the unexpected result in which the conventional logic does not hold. These sports make no attempt to eliminate some of these random ebbs and flows because they realize that it's part of what make the sport fun to watch. Watching the best cope with the ebbs and flows in performance and luck is, to me, what I most love about sports.

Pool is no different from these other sports in that god performance is rewarded over the long haul, but not necessarily in the present. For all the screaming about luck, the same guys win most of the tournaments despite the fact that "slop counts" in nearly all events, and in every big event. Those who execute well over the long haul are the ones racking up the major titles.

The cost of allowing a push out on any shot is eliminating pool's most interesting shot, the two way shot. It's a steep price to pay for unnecessary elimination of some of the things that make pool truly fascinating.

Yes luck exists in all sports. HOWEVER.....pool is the only game where one may not get to play (set gets run out on you). And while that doesn't happen all that often, what does happen is one player gets more chances than the other.

In golf, both get to swing their club. One player is not in the other's way....whether intentional or by accident.

In bowling, both get to roll their ball. One player is not in the other's way.

A simple 'allow roll out when a player lucks into a hook'....versus when he calls it....would go a long way to helping the game. Two way shots would still be allowed....you simply call it.

 

[dabarbr]

Yes, but changing 9 ball to TE they didn't attempt to eliminate luck, they increased it. Taking 2 shot out eliminated a subtle strategy in the game that they replaced with blind luck. I guess folks who prefer to watch more of a luck type game would much prefer they play with the Cyclops cue ball on the TV tables instead of the using the measle. That way at any random time you might get a skid costing you the match... Now that's entertainment...

For a fair amount of years after TE became the game of choice the top players still preferred to play shoot out when playing for the big $$ because of the luck factor in TE.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

For a fair amount of years after TE became the game of choice the top players still preferred to play shoot out when playing for the big $$ because of the luck factor in TE.

You bet, we recently staked Buddy against a good young player playing 2 shot. Even though he won he regretted allowing a jump cue too.

 

[Pushout]

Ok, but 9 ball, played as intended & established isn't a call shot game. Now granted over the last 15 years or so a million people have tinkered with the format of this game when they should just leave it alone and play something else versus trying to change the game into something it isn't or wasn't intended to be. Look where that's led it.

Call shot/safety eliminates the luck factor of the two way shot. If you shoot and hook me....that IF is what makes the two way shot a luck shot. Grady played call shot in one of his tournaments and Tony Robles's tour plays that way now, I believe. Granted, a lot of people don't like this because, like push out, it makes the game more difficult but, some people think, more fair.

 

[sjm]

A simple 'allow roll out when a player lucks into a hook'....versus when he calls it....would go a long way to helping the game. Two way shots would still be allowed....you simply call it.

I think you are on to something here. My solution is to allow roll-out on the shot the player faces at the beginning of his/her turn unless a safety was called on the previous shot.

This would solve the "unlucky hook" and the "too small a penalty for hooking yourself" problems as you could not roll out if you hook yourself on a made shot.

It would be a start.