Who You Got? Mike Sigel or Nick Varner

[sjm]

I once asked Pat Fleming who he thought the better all-around player was, Mike Sigel or Nick Varner, and without hesitation he said Nick Varner.

No doubt, this poll is too close to call if it's about all-around, but it is not. The fringe games, which tend to have a small and regional reach, are not where true greatness is defined.

This year, 2024, is a good example. There were two events that offered an all-around title. They were the Derby City Classic in January and the Predator Challenge of Champions in November. At the Derby, Filler outdistanced Gorst to win Master of the Table and he did so again at the Predator Challenge of Champions, beating Fedor in the final.

Still, excellence in the 9ball era is measured by 9ball titles, and Fedor's haul this year clearly exceeds that of Josh. Fedor, not Josh, is the player of the year in 2024 by virtue of his brilliance at 9ball, today's primary discipline. It's not and never has been about performance in all-around events. One's performance in 9ball, the game's major discipline, is the only reasonable measuring stick.

 

[BasementDweller]

”more clutch”? How do you figure that?

Just my opinion based on watching them both play A LOT. It took Efren a while to get comfortable in the U.S. tourney environment. He seemed to thrive AFTER his original opponents retired or faded. As it's just my intuitive sense, I could be wrong.

 

[sjm]

Just my opinion based on watching them both play A LOT. It took Efren a while to get comfortable in the U.S. tourney environment. He seemed to thrive AFTER his original opponents retired or faded. As it's just my intuitive sense, I could be wrong.

Don't agree here. Efren was always great, but I don't recall Efren ever reaching the #1 ranking in the PBT, the most elite 9ball tour of the 1990s. He won some titles, but always won far fewer titles than guys like Archer, Earl, and Parica, probably the three most elite 9ballers of the 1990s.

Of course, Efren is probably the GOAT in both 8ball and one pocket, so his legend is secure. In addition, many have suggested that he is also the best ever at 15-ball rotation. Nice resume.

 

[BasementDweller]

Don't agree here. Efren was always great, but I don't recall Efren ever reaching the #1 ranking in the PBT, the most elite 9ball tour of the 1990s. He won some titles, but always won far fewer titles than guys like Archer, Earl, and Parica, probably the three most elite 9ballers of the 1990s.

Of course, Efren is probably the GOAT in both 8ball and one pocket, so his legend is secure. In addition, many have suggested that he is also the best ever at 15-ball rotation. Nice resume.

I don't think we are disagreeing, maybe I was just being a little charitable toward Efren. My point was Efren just kept playing while the original cast of characters like Sigel, Varner, Hall, Rempe, Parica, and a few others retired or faded as their prime playing days were behind them. A lot of Efren's greatness lies in his longevity. There were other players that he struggled with after this first group moved on and he likely had a losing record against in 9 Ball. One of them was Ralph Souquet, along with Archer and Strickland who you already mentioned. I'd bet money Souquet ended up ahead of him in the win column.

 

[8intheside]

No doubt, this poll is too close to call if it's about all-around, but it is not. The fringe games, which tend to have a small and regional reach, are not where true greatness is defined.

This year, 2024, is a good example. There were two events that offered an all-around title. They were the Derby City Classic in January and the Predator Challenge of Champions in November. At the Derby, Filler outdistanced Gorst to win Master of the Table and he did so again at the Predator Challenge of Champions, beating Fedor in the final.

Still, excellence in the 9ball era is measured by 9ball titles, and Fedor's haul this year clearly exceeds that of Josh. Fedor, not Josh, is the player of the year in 2024 by virtue of his brilliance at 9ball, today's primary discipline. It's not and never has been about performance in all-around events. One's performance in 9ball, the game's major discipline, is the only reasonable measuring stick.

I think true greatness should be measured by showing mastery of all pool disciplines.

 

[sjm]

I think true greatness should be measured by showing mastery of all pool disciplines.

Yup, you are certainly entitled to feel that way, but why should a pro spend much time on straight pool when there are just a couple of important straight pool events a year. Same thing with 8ball. Unless you are American, same thing with banks and one pocket.

I think I'm probably influenced by both the billiards media and the BCA Hall of Fame.

The billiards media stresses accomplishments in the discipline of the day which, up to about 1983 was straight pool and has been 9ball ever since.

The BCA Hall of Fame, similarly, focuses hall of fame blurbs on the dominant discipline of the days in which the inductees participated.

As one who attends most BCA Hall of Fame dinners, I assure you that little is ever said about the fringe games when the players are introduced or when they address the gathering. Should I care a lot about a player's 8ball speed when there is one 8ball major each year and about 25 9ball majors.

Another problem is that some of the fringe games are played in very few places. Bank pool is very rarely played outside of Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio and a couple of other states. In New York City, it is virtually never played. In Europe and Asia, few people even know that the game exists. It is only in America that all-around competitions exist. Johnston City and the Derby City Classic are the two prime examples.

Thanks for sharing your view here. There is certainly room for debate on this point.

 

[8intheside]

Yup, you are certainly entitled to feel that way, but why should a pro spend much time on straight pool when there are just a couple of important straight pool events a year. Same thing with 8ball. Unless you are American, same thing with banks and one pocket.

I think I'm probably influenced by both the billiards media and the BCA Hall of Fame.

The billiards media stresses accomplishments in the discipline of the day which, up to about 1983 was straight pool and has been 9ball ever since.

The BCA Hall of Fame, similarly, focuses hall of fame blurbs on the dominant discipline of the days in which the inductees participated.

As one who attends most BCA Hall of Fame dinners, I assure you that little is ever said about the fringe games when the players are introduced or when they address the gathering. Should I care a lot about a player's 8ball speed when there is one 8ball major each year and about 25 9ball majors.

Another problem is that some of the fringe games are played in very few places. Bank pool is very rarely played outside of Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio and a couple of other states. In New York City, it is virtually never player. In Europe and Asia, few people even know that the game exists.
It is only in America that all-around competitions exist. Johnston City and the Derby City Classic are the two prime examples.

Thanks for sharing your view here. There is certainly room for debate on this point.

I definitely respect your opinion, but let’s take Efren for example. I don’t think he would have achieved “GOAT“ status without excelling in all pool disciplines. I can see how someone can be given the title of best 9 ball or 8 ball player, but to be called the best ever, one had to excel in all games. Just my opinion.

 

[gregcantrall]

Same thing with 8ball

Well there is one 8 ball exception. Few and far between for sure. Did everyone get paid in this event?
The IPT World Open Eight-ball Championship was an eight-ball pool tournament held between 3–9 September 2006 at the Grand Sierra Resort in Reno, Nevada, by the International Pool Tour. It was the third and last event of the tour It was the richest event in the history of cue sports. The total purse was $3M where $500K was offered to the winner.

 

[sjm]

I definitely respect your opinion, but let’s take Efren for example. I don’t think he would have achieved “GOAT“ status without excelling in all pool disciplines. I can see how someone can be given the title of best 9 ball or 8 ball player, but to be called the best ever, one had to excel in all games. Just my opinion.

Good point, but Efren's GOAT status is, at least in part, due to how he seemed to change how we thought about almost every game he played. He is called "The Magician" because he so often introduced us to shots and methods none of us had ever seen or imagined before and, therefore, seemed magical.

I feel that he is the best ever 8ball player and the best ever one pocket player, and in Asia he is considered the best ever 15-ball rotation player.

That said, I'm always putting Sigel, Mosconi and Greenleaf with him in the GOAT conversation. For me, however, Efren's groundbreaking style and legendary imagination at the table put him a small notch above the other three.

To sum, Efren's influence on the game is, to me, as important as his play when it is time to name the GOAT. We may never see another player that has as much influence on the game.

 

[sjm]

Well there is one 8 ball exception. Few and far between for sure. Did everyone get paid in this event?
The IPT World Open Eight-ball Championship was an eight-ball pool tournament held between 3–9 September 2006 at the Grand Sierra Resort in Reno, Nevada, by the International Pool Tour. It was the third and last event of the tour It was the richest event in the history of cue sports. The total purse was $3M where $500K was offered to the winner.

Yes, 8ball had its chance in 2006 to become the game's primary discipline, but the IPT crumbled quickly by paying out prize money that was irreconcilable with revenues.

 

[gregcantrall]

Yes, 8ball had its chance in 2006 to become the game's primary discipline, but the IPT crumbled quickly by paying out prize money that was irreconcilable with revenues.

I wasn't sure if they actually paid before folding up. It's a shame. Just now watching the Snooker championship in Riyadh. Quite a contrast; money in snooker vs pool.

 

[sjm]

I wasn't sure if they actually paid before folding up. It's a shame. Just now watching the Snooker championship in Riyadh. Quite a contrast; money in snooker vs pool.

I believe the IPT paid most, if not all, of the moneys due.

 

[BasementDweller]

One other thing about Efren...

I really don't think he cared as much about winning as most other great players did. He clearly played for the love of the game. Misses and losses seemed to roll right off his back. His positive attitude probably played a large part in his longevity, as the game never burned him out. The flip side is, he may not have had quite the same period of dominance that some other great players had. He is among a very select few in all of sports who have reached the pinnacle with such a carefree attitude. I really can't think of too many.

 

[8intheside]

One other thing about Efren...

I really don't think he cared as much about winning as most other great players did. He clearly played for the love of the game. Misses and losses seemed to roll right off his back. His positive attitude probably played a large part in his longevity, as the game never burned him out. The flip side is, he may not have had quite the same period of dominance that some other great players had. He is among a very select few in all of sports who have reached the pinnacle with such a carefree attitude. I really can't think of too many.

I believe he absolutely wanted to win, but most filipinos have a great attitude win or lose

 

[BasementDweller]

I believe he absolutely wanted to win, but most filipinos have a great attitude win or lose

Wanting to win and it being an all consuming passion isn't the same thing. I agree most Filipinos do have great attitudes. Some are a bit more fierce than others though. Orcullo comes to mind. He never let's off the gas.

 

[sjm]

One other thing about Efren...

I really don't think he cared as much about winning as most other great players did. He clearly played for the love of the game.

Much truth in this. I wonder if anybody ever played pool with more joy. Perhaps Jeanette Lee had a similar love affair with pool.

A story I've always liked about Efren was told to me twenty-five years ago by former US Open 9ball champion Mike LeBron. Efren often played at Mike's poolroom in the Burlington/Bristol area of Pennsylvania. According to Mike, when Efren pulled into the parking lot of the poolroom, he would screw his cue together as he walked from his parking space to the poolroom's entrance. He just couldn't wait to play!

Legendary player Johnny Ervolino once said of Efren that "he looked at a pool table and saw things that no player before him had ever seen. The possibilities Efren saw on a pool table were always a great source of joy for him.

 

[bbb]

One other thing about Efren...

I really don't think he cared as much about winning as most other great players did. He clearly played for the love of the game. Misses and losses seemed to roll right off his back. His positive attitude probably played a large part in his longevity, as the game never burned him out. The flip side is, he may not have had quite the same period of dominance that some other great players had. He is among a very select few in all of sports who have reached the pinnacle with such a carefree attitude. I really can't think of too many.

I believe he absolutely wanted to win, but most filipinos have a great attitude win or lose

the guy came from dirt poor beginnings
if he didnt win he didnt eat...coundnt support his family
if he would write a book on how he thinks during a match and why he laughs and scratches his head when he misses
we would understand the mind of a champion and how they deal with adversity
jmho
icbw

 

[ribdoner]

i think NV had a higher ceiling

MS was a top shelf player for a longer period

tough call, i voted NV based on his ceiling

 

[BasementDweller]

Nick is pulling ahead.

60 - 40

Better call all Mike's fans and get them to vote.

There's a lot riding on this. I haven't shared all the behind the scenes goings-on but I've heard all those who cast a vote will be placed in a raffle, with the winner getting 50 percent off a AZ Billiards Silver Membership!

You heard it here first folks. Get your vote in.

 

[8intheside]

Good point, but Efren's GOAT status is, at least in part, due to how he seemed to change how we thought about almost every game he played. He is called "The Magician" because he so often introduced us to shots and methods none of us had ever seen or imagined before and, therefore, seemed magical.

I feel that he is the best ever 8ball player and the best ever one pocket player, and in Asia he is considered the best ever 15-ball rotation player.

That said, I'm always putting Sigel, Mosconi and Greenleaf with him in the GOAT conversation. For me, however, Efren's groundbreaking style and legendary imagination at the table put him a small notch above the other three.

To sum, Efren's influence on the game is, to me, as important as his play when it is time to name the GOAT. We may never see another player that has as much influence on the game.

I appreciate your knowledge and information. As for me I’m putting shane up,there as a close second to reyes in goat starus