Wow, I didn't know that customs put everyone's bills of lading on the net. That seems like a little to much information.
Can I have the website? I'd like to check on my competitor's stock levels.
Unreal.
Who's Making Palmer Cues Now
- Thread starter DolphinNoSharks
- Start date
Wow, I didn't know that customs put everyone's bills of lading on the net. That seems like a little to much information.
Can I have the website? I'd like to check on my competitor's stock levels.
Unreal.
Would anyone be willing to send a Chinese made cue from Kao Kao and any American made cue to an independent lab for testing?
Neither cue will marked as to country of origin. The only criteria will be that they are similar in deisgn and number of inlays. After the reviewers bring back the report on the quality comparision, inlcluding cutting the cues in half to inspect the internal construction, the price tags of both cues will be revealed.
I don't really want to start another Buy American war and I am sure that this statement above will set some people off but frankly the cues from China these days, especially the ones from Kao Kao are great. I work with this factory and am there every week. Their facility is atate of the art and their construction practices are also state of the art.
If you transported their facility to Wisconsin then they would get an award for how well their factory runs.
I can't speak for all cue makers in China but I can stand up for this one. I have been here three years and seen them invest millions into bringing their production in line with the best in the world.
I know that some "Palmer" brand cues come from Kao Kao. I don't know that they all do.
On top of being a great producer of cues Kao Kao also puts a lot of money into pool through sponsorship deals with it's customers who put the cash in and Kao Kao provides cues to the customers to cover their part.
As well Kao Kao is taking a more direct role in sponsorships in China and around the world.
So please folks stop with the knocking.
(and yes I know that in the past 40 years cues from Taiwan/China have gone from awful to decent to pretty good)
Neither cue will marked as to country of origin. The only criteria will be that they are similar in deisgn and number of inlays. After the reviewers bring back the report on the quality comparision, inlcluding cutting the cues in half to inspect the internal construction, the price tags of both cues will be revealed.
I don't really want to start another Buy American war and I am sure that this statement above will set some people off but frankly the cues from China these days, especially the ones from Kao Kao are great. I work with this factory and am there every week. Their facility is atate of the art and their construction practices are also state of the art.
If you transported their facility to Wisconsin then they would get an award for how well their factory runs.
I can't speak for all cue makers in China but I can stand up for this one. I have been here three years and seen them invest millions into bringing their production in line with the best in the world.
I know that some "Palmer" brand cues come from Kao Kao. I don't know that they all do.
On top of being a great producer of cues Kao Kao also puts a lot of money into pool through sponsorship deals with it's customers who put the cash in and Kao Kao provides cues to the customers to cover their part.
As well Kao Kao is taking a more direct role in sponsorships in China and around the world.
So please folks stop with the knocking.
(and yes I know that in the past 40 years cues from Taiwan/China have gone from awful to decent to pretty good)
I'm all for a well-made product, no matter where it comes from. Well said, John. I think the stigma against the Taiwan/Chinese pool cue market will take a long time to reverse, just because the quality of the product was so poor for so long that it's immediately the first thing people think of.
If they moved their factory to Wisconsin it would be closed immediately. For OSHA regulatory infractions as well as DEP/EPA regulatory infractions. That and the fact they would have to pay US wages, which would probably be the deal breaker.
So please, stop with the Chinese are up to date BS and global economy BS
http://www.china-labour.org.hk/en/node/100206
Just to be clear 1750 yuan is around 260.00 a MONTH...
But John we get it, you think the Chinese SKILLSET is better than it was. Clearly it is, no doubt. But there is a reason people like yourself have taken manufacturing over to China, and it's NOT for the skillset. That is perfectly fine, and I, and everyone here get's it. But let's call it for what it really is. Don't think we are all blind, we all know how the world works.
If Kao Kao had to pay US wages, they wouldn't have the money to put back into pool. If Nike had to do the same, we wouldn't get Tiger Woods on commercials, we'd be getting Pee Wee Herman.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=9949
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec07/china_11-20.html
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2006/06/7039.ars
JV
Last edited:
I knew I could count on you. The fact is that you know nothing of the Kao Kao factory though.
If you want to come to the factory I will give you the tour. I live in Xiamen China. Call me from the airport and I will have you in the factory in one hour. That way you know that we didn't clean up or hide anything.
If you want to be REALLY sure then get in a taxi and tell them to take you to Jiao Mei (that's Jow May) - I can have my wife send you the instructions to get to the factory gate in Chinese. So that when you show up you can see exactly what the conditions are as well as the production procedures.
Bring your camera. I know that you are 100% fair and honest and will report honestly on how the cues are made as well as the conditions that the people who work in the factory live and work under.
Anyone from this forum is invited. I will personally prove to you that the Kao Kao Cue Factory produces great cues in a state of the art facility and that the people who work there are treated great, have full medical, dental, social security, etc...
I don't want to debate globalization or macroeconomics or trade issues or human rights because we can both trade news stories all day.
This is about one factory that makes pool cues. I am here and you aren't but the door is always open for you.
Now you are welcome to do the just the quality comparison if you like. You can come to Sterling's warehouse and bring the cue that is to be sent to the lab and you can pick any cue from our shelves as our sample. You don't get to inspect it and we don't get to inspect yours. You stand there while both cues are put in the Fedex box and shipped to the lab.
Then we will just wait for their results and see how we did.
Hey I am just pointing out facts within the trade issues. Cues are cues, Like I said I believe that the only direction China could go is up in regards to having better machinery, and better procedures for assembly. Your cases prove it, and so do some of the better cues coming out of China. But I am not ready to toss out US made products or toss them under the bus.
You opened the door with your hypothetical move of a Chinese factory to Wisconsin.
http://extras.sltrib.com/china/printstory1.htm
http://www.scaryreality.com/all/China_solidifies_dominance_in_furniture_making.html
But again, lets call it what it is. I am just going to be the first to start with the anti-globalization talk BEFORE you start with how well all YOUR new countrymen are treated.
JV (---love the cases, however world globalization is absolutely a joke
All this BS from the guy who has admitted on this forum he hire illegals in his construction business.
Lots of product are made in China that Sell for Big Bucks like COACH Purses. If you took out the parts out of what you drive that were made out of the U.S.A. your Ride would not Run. Harley Davidson Motorcycles are assembled in the U.S.A. with part from all over the world.
So why don't you reply to JB CASES question:
"Would anyone be willing to send a Chinese made cue from Kao Kao and any American made cue to an independent lab for testing?
Neither cue will marked as to country of origin. The only criteria will be that they are similar in deisgn and number of inlays. After the reviewers bring back the report on the quality comparision, inlcluding cutting the cues in half to inspect the internal construction, the price tags of both cues will be revealed.
I don't really want to start another Buy American war and I am sure that this statement above will set some people off but frankly the cues from China these days, especially the ones from Kao Kao are great. I work with this factory and am there every week. Their facility is atate of the art and their construction practices are also state of the art.
If you transported their facility to Wisconsin then they would get an award for how well their factory runs.
I can't speak for all cue makers in China but I can stand up for this one. I have been here three years and seen them invest millions into bringing their production in line with the best in the world.
I know that some "Palmer" brand cues come from Kao Kao. I don't know that they all do.
On top of being a great producer of cues Kao Kao also puts a lot of money into pool through sponsorship deals with it's customers who put the cash in and Kao Kao provides cues to the customers to cover their part.
As well Kao Kao is taking a more direct role in sponsorships in China and around the world.
So please folks stop with the knocking.
(and yes I know that in the past 40 years cues from Taiwan/China have gone from awful to decent to pretty good)"
Well Joe,
Like I said, the door is open if you want to actually see things with your own eyes rather than rely on generalizations based on isolated examples.
Like I said the Kao Kao factory could be tranplanted to Wisconsin and it would be just fine, of course complying with all regulations. If you don't believe it then come and see for yourself.
The door is always open for you.
Like I said, the door is open if you want to actually see things with your own eyes rather than rely on generalizations based on isolated examples.
Like I said the Kao Kao factory could be tranplanted to Wisconsin and it would be just fine, of course complying with all regulations. If you don't believe it then come and see for yourself.
The door is always open for you.
I once met up with a guy in the Portland, OR area to discuss his desire to manufacture his own line of coin-operated pool tables. In talking with him, it was clear he was sold on American made...and wanted to make that clear to anyone that might be interested in buying his newly designed (RKC) coin-operated pool tables....and that they were AMERICAN MADE
After spending some time in his shop looking around at what he'd already built for home style pool tables and listening
to him talk about how he feels about how all the American manufacturing is being sent overseas and what a shame for ALL Americans....I decided to pass on his offer to help him design that ALL American coin-operated pool table. When he asked why.....I simply explained that he was a hipocrite....because I didn't see one American made power tool in his shopIt's not the made in China, Japan, Korea....or any where else that sells a product that is manufactured out of country....it's the BUYER! For the most part..."IMO"....American made....just means over priced...because American workers think paycheck first....customers second
so they invite competition to come in through the front door and undercut them in price....Walmart is a VERY good example of that....because if they don't look at business that way....they won't be in business. BUYERS....controll EVERYTHING sold....not the SELLERS!
SIMONIS cloth is NOT American made....so what AMERICAN made cloth is there that is better than SIMONIS....that's just an example of what I'm talking about.
Here's another one. The USA has some of the best Slate quarries in the world right here on American soil, problem is....the cost of American labor makes it to expensive to mine the slate....because it would have to be sold at 4 times the cost of Brazilian slate in order to cover the cost of the mining.............think about it
"Buyers rule....sellers compete"
Glen
Glen
You made a very good point. Buyers want bang for the buck, and if they determine a product's quality is to their liking, then they buy that product.
Examples, cars (Toyota, Nisson, Mazda, Hyundai's rise lately, Kia coming up), look at Seiko watches - you started out could buiy them for under $20, and now you pay a price for them. Electronics - Japan's rise in Electronics.
Our standard of living in the U.S. and unions has driven wages up where American companies can not be competitive in a global market. Many jobs in the U.S. are overpaid, for example, i.e., deburrers in the aircraft industry making $16 an hour when it is no more than an $8 an hour job at tops. I mean the job takes little education and training.
People just want the most and best for their money they have, and they don't really give a hoot where is made.
You made a very good point. Buyers want bang for the buck, and if they determine a product's quality is to their liking, then they buy that product.
Examples, cars (Toyota, Nisson, Mazda, Hyundai's rise lately, Kia coming up), look at Seiko watches - you started out could buiy them for under $20, and now you pay a price for them. Electronics - Japan's rise in Electronics.
Our standard of living in the U.S. and unions has driven wages up where American companies can not be competitive in a global market. Many jobs in the U.S. are overpaid, for example, i.e., deburrers in the aircraft industry making $16 an hour when it is no more than an $8 an hour job at tops. I mean the job takes little education and training.
People just want the most and best for their money they have, and they don't really give a hoot where is made.
Did Eugene ever get permission from Arnold?
Made in Taiwan circa 1997
Circa 1999
They also sold slate, foosball tables -aka Dick's Sporting Goods-,& I believe they also imported tires.
Sometime around the year 2000 they transfered the pool cue portion of that business to the current owner.
He continued to purchase from them for a while.
When the quality of that product dropped off.
early made in China 2001
Other factories got better.
The current importer of Palmer Cues began to use KaoKao as his supplier.
He imported those with no logo for a few years.
They were dubbed "Palmer Prototypes" He sold them wholesale and at the national tournaments.
That is what I have for sale.:thumbup:Hand selected
He has now just this past year started having a PALMER logo
He no longer does wholesale business but he still does the tournaments.
Here is one of the latest editions.
I have been selling and playing with the Palmer import product for 15 years.
I played with some originals back in the day. As always whether back in the 60's or now they are a great cue for the money. :thumbup:
To add to this information the original Palmer Industies of Taiwan were the manufacturers of the Black triangle and Blue moon logo cues.
Made in Taiwan circa 1997Circa 1999They also sold slate, foosball tables -aka Dick's Sporting Goods-,& I believe they also imported tires.
Sometime around the year 2000 they transfered the pool cue portion of that business to the current owner.
He continued to purchase from them for a while.
When the quality of that product dropped off.
early made in China 2001Other factories got better.
The current importer of Palmer Cues began to use KaoKao as his supplier.
He imported those with no logo for a few years.
They were dubbed "Palmer Prototypes" He sold them wholesale and at the national tournaments.
That is what I have for sale.:thumbup:Hand selected
He has now just this past year started having a PALMER logo
He no longer does wholesale business but he still does the tournaments.
Here is one of the latest editions.
I have been selling and playing with the Palmer import product for 15 years.
I played with some originals back in the day. As always whether back in the 60's or now they are a great cue for the money. :thumbup:
That's pretty much a general statement though....which table manufactures is more important than table manufactures in general. Everyone that produces slates....sells them to someone...or they'd be out of the slate selling business
....but does Palmer sell slates to Brunswick....Diamond...or Olhausen....that's the question. Small table manufactures are all over the place....but by themselves can't afford to purchase container loads of slate....so they buy from some one else that is willing to sell less then container loads of slates....like Palmer, there's always a need for someone like that in this business. Glen
That tuxedo-esque cue at the bottom of your post is actually kind of nice.
There was a connection between Palmer Industries circa mid 90's and Brunswick.That's pretty much a general statement though....which table manufactures is more important than table manufactures in general. Everyone that produces slates....sells them to someone...or they'd be out of the slate selling business
Glen
Whether it continues I do not know.
I was told that Peter Chun bought the Palmer Cue name to have a foothold in America.
I heard he was at one time also the largest Brunswick distributor in China.
Who was getting slate from who I really don't know.
To add to this information the original Palmer Industies of Taiwan were the manufacturers of the Black triangle and Blue moon logo cues.
View attachment 140673Made in Taiwan circa 1997
View attachment 140674Circa 1999
They also sold slate, foosball tables -aka Dick's Sporting Goods-,& I believe they also imported tires.
Sometime around the year 2000 they transfered the pool cue portion of that business to the current owner.
He continued to purchase from them for a while.
When the quality of that product dropped off.
View attachment 140675early made in China 2001
Other factories got better.
The current importer of Palmer Cues began to use KaoKao as his supplier.
He imported those with no logo for a few years.
They were dubbed "Palmer Prototypes" He sold them wholesale and at the national tournaments.
That is what I have for sale.:thumbup:Hand selected
He has now just this past year started having a PALMER logo
He no longer does wholesale business but he still does the tournaments.
Here is one of the latest editions.
View attachment 140682
View attachment 140683
I have been selling and playing with the Palmer import product for 15 years.
I played with some originals back in the day. As always whether back in the 60's or now they are a great cue for the money. :thumbup:
Great info, thanks Rack em.
Take care,
Chris
Hey why don't you learn to READ. I am not questioning the quality of the cue, just the statement that if they moved to Wisconsin they would win some kind of award and Johns dream of a global economy.
Hey FTR I would hire illegal Chinese if they were on the corner to. That's not what I am arguing.
JV (---go back to Mexico with you buddies and buy some prozac
We you are like a Two Sided Coin, and I think people are understanding you more each time you type away. What good for America, and what is good for you Personally!