anybody know?
Why 60mm slate on carom tables?
- Thread starter smashmouth
- Start date
i would guess that it gives a more stable condition as far as temp. and less prone to warp over time
it just seems to me that you're way past the law of diminishing returns at 60mm
of course I also don't see a need for heating systems either
world championship pool/snooker tables/tournaments have neither
of course I also don't see a need for heating systems either
world championship pool/snooker tables/tournaments have neither
OK here's my reason why even though I'll get torched.
Speaking of 1,2&3Cushion games, they're more sensitive to the accuracy of the table. We don't want any outside influence (in a perfect world) to interfere with the angles the ball takes off a rail. With lighter equipment there's much more vibration Everywhere, on the bed and off the rails.
If you play the game, try it on a Gold Crown vs any European table. You will find the Gold Crown to be a short angle table plus rather unpredictable comparing it to the systems. IMO this is due not only to the slate weight but the weight and comparatively flimsy anchoring of the rails. I'll bet my one long rail is close if not heavier than 2 Gold Crown rails and its a old T-Rail Brunswick. And by the way I can hear the ball hit the rail and rumble as it travels the 1-1/2"+ thick bed. Euro tables are silent.
The other thing we get with heavier equipment is greater distance which is also due in part to the lack of vibration.
You can't compare the requirements of these games with pool and snooker. Pool balls are 25% lighter and snooker even lighter than pool balls, plus the shots are 95% shooting a OB to a pocket with the CB traveling usually no more than 2 or maybe 3 rails at most. Bank shots are 98% one rail and almost any table will be accurate within the 4-1/2" - 5" pocket target with a 1 rail bank.
As far as heat goes it helps when there's a high humidity issue. When I played pool everyday it seemed during a rainy day the rails were faster and the bed slower. With heat that variable is eliminated and we can get better speed control from one table to another. Pool and snooker should have the heat option. Does heat make a table faster? I think not much, maybe a little.
As a side bar. Why not just adjust my game to the short angles? Well this is true, but a short angled table simply takes away so many shots. They just aren't on the table.
We shouldn't have to play this game like golf where one course is tough and another is not so much. Tables should be reasonably close from one to another particularly within brands if not across brands.
Sorry mechanics. Couldn't hold back any longer.
Speaking of 1,2&3Cushion games, they're more sensitive to the accuracy of the table. We don't want any outside influence (in a perfect world) to interfere with the angles the ball takes off a rail. With lighter equipment there's much more vibration Everywhere, on the bed and off the rails.
If you play the game, try it on a Gold Crown vs any European table. You will find the Gold Crown to be a short angle table plus rather unpredictable comparing it to the systems. IMO this is due not only to the slate weight but the weight and comparatively flimsy anchoring of the rails. I'll bet my one long rail is close if not heavier than 2 Gold Crown rails and its a old T-Rail Brunswick. And by the way I can hear the ball hit the rail and rumble as it travels the 1-1/2"+ thick bed. Euro tables are silent.
The other thing we get with heavier equipment is greater distance which is also due in part to the lack of vibration.
You can't compare the requirements of these games with pool and snooker. Pool balls are 25% lighter and snooker even lighter than pool balls, plus the shots are 95% shooting a OB to a pocket with the CB traveling usually no more than 2 or maybe 3 rails at most. Bank shots are 98% one rail and almost any table will be accurate within the 4-1/2" - 5" pocket target with a 1 rail bank.
As far as heat goes it helps when there's a high humidity issue. When I played pool everyday it seemed during a rainy day the rails were faster and the bed slower. With heat that variable is eliminated and we can get better speed control from one table to another. Pool and snooker should have the heat option. Does heat make a table faster? I think not much, maybe a little.
As a side bar. Why not just adjust my game to the short angles? Well this is true, but a short angled table simply takes away so many shots. They just aren't on the table.
We shouldn't have to play this game like golf where one course is tough and another is not so much. Tables should be reasonably close from one to another particularly within brands if not across brands.
Sorry mechanics. Couldn't hold back any longer.
A table's overall construction can make a huge difference in playability and accuracy. But the slate thickness, not so much.
Granted, it needs to be a minimum thickness (about 1") to effectively thwart the warp, but again, it has more to do with the table itself. (a poorly supported slate of any thickness will eventually warp)
So, other than being harder to warp, I do not believe that a 60mm slate would be any better than a properly framed 1" slate.
Some even claim that thicker slates are prone to certain issues moreso than their thinner counterparts. For example, a thicker slate can certainly hold more moisture and will shrink and expand to a greater degree. This can actually bow and warp whole rails, depending again, on the individual table.
To me, table construction outweighs slate thickness.
Granted, it needs to be a minimum thickness (about 1") to effectively thwart the warp, but again, it has more to do with the table itself. (a poorly supported slate of any thickness will eventually warp)
So, other than being harder to warp, I do not believe that a 60mm slate would be any better than a properly framed 1" slate.
Some even claim that thicker slates are prone to certain issues moreso than their thinner counterparts. For example, a thicker slate can certainly hold more moisture and will shrink and expand to a greater degree. This can actually bow and warp whole rails, depending again, on the individual table.
To me, table construction outweighs slate thickness.
Mr. Bond that's interesting. My thoughts are and not to argue since I really don't know. Moisture Content: I'd agree that if you could wring out the water in both 1" and 3" slates you'd get more water out of the 3". But the percent of water should be the same???? Maybe this is the reason the thicker slates are heated. Rather than what I've thought. Europe and Asia generally don't have the quality HVAC systems we enjoy here in the USA so they added heat to help get rid of moisture.
I still wonder about your statement that a well supported slate is just as good whether thin or thick. I agree that support is essential. My old table has 8 wooden 2X6 boards (6 quadrants). Today's modern tables use Steel I-Beams, I assume they're inspected for straightness. I admit I'm not sure if there's cross members or not on these tables. I'm also assuming that if my theory of vibration is a factor. A thin slate sitting on steel is more prone to sympathetic harmonics than a thick slate. Slate in generally is dead harmonically I think, but going thinner? I think we get transfer.
My question to you is if 1" is good enough, what would you think of 1/4" or 1/2" given absolute perfect support. I always look at extremes to help with answers to my weird thoughts. Yes perfection is expensive, but other than that what?
Its all conjecture on my part and interested in this.
I still wonder about your statement that a well supported slate is just as good whether thin or thick. I agree that support is essential. My old table has 8 wooden 2X6 boards (6 quadrants). Today's modern tables use Steel I-Beams, I assume they're inspected for straightness. I admit I'm not sure if there's cross members or not on these tables. I'm also assuming that if my theory of vibration is a factor. A thin slate sitting on steel is more prone to sympathetic harmonics than a thick slate. Slate in generally is dead harmonically I think, but going thinner? I think we get transfer.
My question to you is if 1" is good enough, what would you think of 1/4" or 1/2" given absolute perfect support. I always look at extremes to help with answers to my weird thoughts. Yes perfection is expensive, but other than that what?
Its all conjecture on my part and interested in this.
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Like causing hernias.
would be interesting to see how a 1" slate plays on an otherwise identical table
I still maintain no discernable difference
I still maintain no discernable difference
jason777r
Registered
The thicker slate does reduce vibration which causes more ball travel. Also, a ball will jump alot easier with thicker slates. That's one reason, besides cost, regular pocket tables are good with 1 to 1.5 inch slates. Balls would be bouncing too much in games like 9ball. I talked to Diamond about their carom table project and they are going to have to use thicker a slate for it to be considered "playable". This is just information I've been told by a couple guys.
Jason
Jason
Thicker slates are better for minimizing surface variations. (ie easier level)
However, the manner of vibration that causes ball travel cannot be reduced with a thicker slate alone. Table construction is key.
Think about it. Solid matter transfers energy very efficiently.
another way to look at it - ever stood on a large concrete bridge or overpass as a semi went by, and felt the whole bridge bounce?
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as for the "noise" of play on various tables, that depends heavily on many things...
the accoustics of the floor/room, the cloth, the cushions, what the rails are made of, how the slate is mounted to the frame, the ball return construction, etc etc...and believe or not, a thicker/larger slate actually has the potential to create more noise.
the source of the noise, of course, is the ball impacting against various surfaces (and actually rolling across the table). the slate (and the table itself) acts as a sounding board or 'speaker' - that carries and amplifies the impact vibrations. the 'more solid' a table is in its construction, the easier it is for the vibrations (and sound) to be dispersed through a table and out into the room.
can noise be prevented or reduced? yes, to a certain extent it can.
(although you obviously cant do anything about ball-hitting-ball noise)
but a thicker slate wont help much, if at all, and may even make it worse.
the accoustics of the floor/room, the cloth, the cushions, what the rails are made of, how the slate is mounted to the frame, the ball return construction, etc etc...and believe or not, a thicker/larger slate actually has the potential to create more noise.
the source of the noise, of course, is the ball impacting against various surfaces (and actually rolling across the table). the slate (and the table itself) acts as a sounding board or 'speaker' - that carries and amplifies the impact vibrations. the 'more solid' a table is in its construction, the easier it is for the vibrations (and sound) to be dispersed through a table and out into the room.
can noise be prevented or reduced? yes, to a certain extent it can.
(although you obviously cant do anything about ball-hitting-ball noise)
but a thicker slate wont help much, if at all, and may even make it worse.