Why are great players ignored by public?

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
I read this SHORT article this morning and it struck me as being appropriate to pool and the problems of Joe Public not really understanding what s/he is seeing when watching the great players.

Comments?

Can mediocrity appreciate greatness?
Classically Liberal
by CLS

"Often it is lamented that greatness is dead. We are told that people yearn
for it, wish to see it before them, dream of it. But is greatness something
that most people can appreicate? Or is greatness something recognized only
by the few? What would you do if you found greatness before your eyes? I
ask because it is not self-evident. Perhaps you would appreciate it, admire
it and bless that moment where you were allowed to see it, to experience
it. And then again perhaps you would simply walk on by oblivious to its
existence. On an early, chilly Friday morning the rushing commuters at the
L'Enfant Plaza metro station, in Washington DC, were scurrying to work. As
they came up the escalator they could hear the music of a violin wafting,
echoing through the halls, bouncing and reviberating with an unusual
richness. It would be almost impossible to ignore the notes dancing about
their ears. But ignore them they did." (04/11/07)

http://tinyurl.com/2hffy2

Jeff Livingston
 
Appreciation! Appreciation! Appreciation!

I know what you are talking about here. How many players Truly know what it takes and feels like to draw the ball 5 rails??? How many have the experience and insight within them to truly comprehend the act of having just exucuted the precisest suregery on the table??? Overall, there are Only a few compared to the Very Many who know the feel of being able to execute On Demand a shot that requires expertise and presision with No Room For Error!!!

Appreciation, True Knowing, Insight, Really Knowing what that took and What that Feels Like...How Difficult of an obsticle that player just Overcame...

PERFECTION is something great...
Seeing it is something great...
Knowing it is something great...
Executing it is the greatest of all...
Executing it ON DEMAND is Priceless!!!

Thanks again,


Mr. J. :-)
 
I remember a bunch of times being in the company of greatness....

>13 years old at the Philly Flyers hockey camp. The team I played on was GREAT, we won our Championships.....watching what the pros did on the ice was insane, and put me in a stupor.

>at 18 I started learning the Plumbing trade, my teacher was an old school craftsman, the best I've ever seen, and the reason I am in business today.

>about 15 years ago I got to work in a great pool room and was consistently in awe watching Andy Toth run 100's daily or play 80 no count.

>sitting in front of my computer a couple years ago watching Efren's final matches at the Derby City Classic.......incredible!

Gerry
 
I think most people who have ever played the game can appreciate what they see the pros do.

Granted sometimes people may see a player fail to run out for whatever reason, or have a bad day dismiss them as not being that good. Or perhaps they may not be able to understand that pros aren't running out straight pool or 8 ball racks haphazardly.

Most of the people I know who have clicked on pool match have come away impressed and with a smile on their face. There are some that watch the wrong match and think the players aren't actually that good, but they aren't the majority (I don't think anyways).

I know that I have managed to create addicts out of most of the people at work through healthy dosages of snooker from youtube and pool from propoolvideo.com.
 
Slowhand said:
Nobody is born with infinite wisdom, appreciation for greatness is an acquired taste.

Just look at some of the crappy music that teenagers listen to, it takes a while before they learn and some never do.

All I can say is show your support for those you see that display their greatness, because if it weren't for the fans then they wouldn't have a venue for their performances. It's up to us in the know, because God knows that the clueless don't care if what you appreciate lives or dies.

Perhaps if you did what you profess, you might find a way to appreciate music that is diffierent from what you currently like. My parents felt the same way about Beatles, Stones, etc. in the 60s, and now I realize how narrow minded they were, thinking I should like what they thought was proper. They didn't care much for my playing pool either. Perhaps an open mind to everything in life, and respect for even the young generation's taste, will leave them with more positive ideas about appreciating the things in their life. Hopefully one of them is pool.
 
Posters here complain about is the lack of wide-spread recognition by the public of superior billiards players.

Just because someone has mastered a particular discipline, recognition does not necessarily follow. Who is the world's best speed walker? best caber tosser?:D

I saw The Flying Scotsman this week, a movie about a Graeme Obree who fought depression, won two cycling world championships, and twice set the record for the greatest distance covered in one hour on a bicycle, on a bike he built himself from an odd collection of scrap, including parts from a washing machine. And he fought the cycling bureaucrats who tried to declare his bike illegal. I've been riding a bike since I was four years old and liked the movie. But how many pool players will see it or appreciate Obree's accomplishments?
 
I think the premise of the thread is true. In most areas of achievement, a complete appreciation for the skills of an expert is limited to those who have, through either experience of study, made themselves capable of such appreciation. Still, I think that other factors affect whether the skills of an expert will be appreciated.

An underqualified judge of a performance or achievement will be very greatly influenced by things that are peripheral to a performance. The violinist experiment is fascinating, and shows that the setting and mood of a moment can greatly affect how we react to things. Still, it's a case of misdirection, for our preconceived notion of the train station instrumentalist is that they are financially stricken and scraping for money. "If they were really good, they wouldn't be playing here," will be a thought crossing the minds of many listeners. The expert trapped in a seedy environment is less likely to have their skills properly appreciated.
 
sjm said:
I think the premise of the thread is true. In most areas of achievement, a complete appreciation for the skills of an expert is limited to those who have, through either experience of study, made themselves capable of such appreciation. Still, I think that other factors affect whether the skills of an expert will be appreciated.

An underqualified judge of a performance or achievement will be very greatly influenced by things that are peripheral to a performance. The violinist experiment is fascinating, and shows that the setting and mood of a moment can greatly affect how we react to things. Still, it's a case of misdirection, for our preconceived notion of the train station instrumentalist is that they are financially stricken and scraping for money. "If they were really good, they wouldn't be playing here," will be a thought crossing the minds of many listeners. The expert trapped in a seedy environment is less likely to have their skills properly appreciated.

I think some type of conscious thought is getting in the way of appreciating the greatness of, in this case, the violin music. The author of the aritcle commented on how many of the small children stopped and listened, so much so that their parents had to pull them away from it. I've seen little kids look at a pool game with the same fascination.

Perhaps our appreciation of greatness was always present in our selves but became muted by constant exposure, by well-meaning people, to being forced to "appreciate" any and all performances, good or bad. "Nice try," may be a stupid comment when the try wasn't REALLY nice, but just a try.

Make sense?

Jeff Livingston
 
RayDM said:
how many people even know who this guy is playing. It all depends on your ponit of view. If I was walking through a crowded place and this guy was playing, I wouldn't pay any attention either, but if a pool match was going on or he was a harmonica player, then I would stop.

I don't think that it is a situation of someone being ignored, but of the people caring about the subject matter.

I agree totally. I've probably ignored greatness all the time. If I was walking by a marbles game, I may not be able to recognize excellence in the shooters even if they were world class. The same with abstract art and many other disciplines. Why? Because I don't give a hoot.

Now if there was a game of pool, snooker or caroms going on, I'm sure I could pick out brilliance in no time at all.

Same with the equipment. How many of us could hear the difference in tonality of a Stadivarius versus a standard violin? Certainly not me. But I could tell the difference in the playing quality of a pool table, even from a distance watching other players. Our experience leads us to appreciate certain things, much like having an acquired taste.
 
sjm said:
The expert trapped in a seedy environment is less likely to have their skills properly appreciated.

This is a good point. Probably explains a lot about why pool is underappreciated by the general sports fan.
 
I never understand curling, or why people would watch it. But my friends who have learned and played curling are very interested in watching it on TV. I suppose it is because they could appreciate the skill involved, while I can't.

Then, I see people wathcing football, basketball, and baseball. Most of these people do not play themselves, but they still enjoy the game and appreciate a great shot when they see one. Somehow, they have acquired the appreciation without actual participation.

I think pool is like curling--the market is so small because only those who have actually played the game would appreciate watching it.

The more popular sports, whereas the famous players can make millions or billions, are enjoyed by the general public, mostly those who are not actual participate of the sports.

In the more popular sports, I also notice a clear distinction of "team identification." Most fans would support one team, or one player with a large amount of passion. The fans would wear the jersey, buy the pictures, and display the logo proudly in public.

Whereas in minority sports, the fans do not usually displayed such support in public.

For example, I cannot name one great curling player or curling team; but I know Tiger Woods, and the Lakers.
 
Pool Only Dreams Of Being As Big As Curling

X Breaker said:
I never understand curling, or why people would watch it. But my friends who have learned and played curling are very interested in watching it on TV. I suppose it is because they could appreciate the skill involved, while I can't.

I think pool is like curling--the market is so small because only those who have actually played the game would appreciate watching it.

A sample or curling news

April 5, 2007 Curling has gone big time in Canada. Many people still think it's a bizarre semi-sport with just a few fans. But this week at Rexall Place in Edmonton, the World Men's Curling Championships is setting record attendance levels. And last month, more than 1.2 million viewers tuned in to the CBC for the final of the Brier, the Canadian men's national championships.

But although it was invented in Scotland and has grown to become a global curiosity, curling is still very much a Canadian game. Heck, the Brier's title sponsor is Tim Horton's.

"The viewership, for instance, on TSN or even CBC, is as good or better than any NHL hockey game that's on there. It's only the NHL playoffs that can outdraw curling.

2006 Olympics

Three guesses as to which Olympic sport Italians are tuning in to watch on television in record numbers.

Downhill skiing? Figure skating? Ice hockey?

Nope. Would you believe curling?

According to viewing figures, Italy's upset victory over the United States in men's curling last week was watched by almost five million Italians on television, outdrawing hockey and figure skating.

In Canada lucrative prize money is up for grabs at many bonspiels – for example:

Asham Women's Curling Tour:
GRAND SLAM:Wayden Transportation Ladies Classic, Abbotsford, BC(Nov 17-20)

Prize Money--$60,000, 1st-$16,000, 2nd-$12,000, 3-4th-$8,000, 5-8th-$4,000
 
Canadian Curling Prize Money Better Than Pool?

2006/2007 Season to March 28
MEN
1. Martin (Edmonton, Alberta) $144,000.00
2. Howard, G (Coldwater, Ontario) $111,661.00
3. Ferbey (Edmonton, Alberta) $105,563.00
4. Burtnyk (Winnipeg, Manitoba) $75,924.00
5. Koe, K (Edmonton, Alberta) $71,000.00
6. Simmons (Davidson, Saskatchewan) $51,400.00
7. Gushue (St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador) $38,000.00
8. Johnson, M (Edmonton, Alberta) $37,600.00
9. Stoughton (Winnipeg, Manitoba) $33,650.00
10. Walchuk (Edmonton, Alberta) $31,600.00
11. Jordison (Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan) $30,000.00
12. Middaugh, W (Toronto, Ontario) $28,500.00
13. Korte (Saskatoon, Saskatchewan) $25,000.00
14. Desjardins (Chicoutimi, Quebec) $24,600.00
15. Base, J (Oakville, Ontario) $24,500.00
16. Charette (Boucherville, Quebec) $24,500.00
17. King (Edmonton, Alberta) $23,500.00
18. Peters (Winnipeg, Manitoba) $18,100.00
19. Cochrane (Ottawa, Ontario) $18,000.00
20. Adams, S (Halifax, Nova Scotia) $17,500.00

WOMEN
1. Jones, J (Winnipeg, Manitoba) $44,048.00
2. Anderson (Delisle, Saskatchewan) $39,200.00
3. Bernard (Calgary, Alberta) $29,800.00
4. Kleibrink (Calgary, Alberta) $29,500.00
5. King, C (Edmonton, Alberta) $24,001.00
6. Lawton (Regina, Saskatchewan) $22,800.00
7. Scott (Kelowna, British Columbia) $22,093.00
8. Norberg (Sweden) $20,312.00
9. Middaugh, S (Coldwater, Ontario) $18,500.00
10. Webster (Grande Prairie, Alberta) $17,500.00
11. Bryden (Calgary, Alberta) $15,800.00
12. Porritt (Winnipeg, Manitoba) $15,800.00
13. Santos (Edmonton, Alberta) $15,700.00
14. Law (New Westminster, British Columbia) $11,400.00
15. Wang (China) $10,600.00
16. Madonia (Mississauga, Ontario) $10,000.00
17. Lindner (St. Catharines, Ontario) $9,900.00
18. Rankin (Calgary, Alberta) $9,300.00
19. Mallett (New Westminster, British Columbia) $8,000.00
20. Sanders (Victoria, British Columbia) $8,000.00
 
Deadon said:
Perhaps if you did what you profess, you might find a way to appreciate music that is diffierent from what you currently like. My parents felt the same way about Beatles, Stones, etc. in the 60s, and now I realize how narrow minded they were, thinking I should like what they thought was proper. They didn't care much for my playing pool either. Perhaps an open mind to everything in life, and respect for even the young generation's taste, will leave them with more positive ideas about appreciating the things in their life. Hopefully one of them is pool.

Thank you...I was going to say something but you beat me to it. REP to you sir.

I was slightly offended by that comment. That "crappy music" we listen to is an expression of our generation. Just like every generation has had before ours. I guess Slowhand is just too simple minded to appreciate anything other than his classic rock. I'm sorry, but a lot of that music is pretty bad too. At least I'm able to appreciate the greatness of Rush, Led Zeppelin, and Tom Petty, as well as 2Pac, Bone Thugs-n-Harmony, The Strokes, Muse, Tool, and yes, even Eminem. Get off your soap box, open your mind and you might learn a thing or two from the ignorant teenagers.
 
It looks too easy

A couple of months ago I was watching a match on TV. Allison Fisher made a terrific shot and was almost straight-in on the next ball. I said something out loud like 'Whoa!' just as the 22 yr. old daughter walked by. She stopped and looked at the screen (which now shows the almost straight-in shot) and with a frown said, "It isn't hard". Confused, I just looked at her. She said, "It's just angles. It isn't hard. I've done it!". When I tried to explain that you've got to get the cue ball in position for the next shot, she gave me the standard 'You don't get it' look and walked away.

I know that her only personal experience is on a barbox with friends just knocking the balls around. Everyone taking a turn and lots of laughter. It's fun and easy. Nothing wrong with that. On TV she has only seen professionals play and the pros make it look easy.

There's the problem. If it looks so easy on TV it must really BE easy. Witness the current popularity of Texas Holdem Poker! Whether it's curling or the violin, those who do it well make it look easy.
 
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I have a buddy, who when I comment on how good of a player someone is, says, "I'm not afraid of him," as if I'm making a comparison, when I'm just commenting on the skill of someone.

It doesn't matter who I'm talking about, he makes the same self-centered comment EVERYTIME! He changes the subject from the good player to himself...EVERYTIME! It's always about HIM, not others.

So, the point I'm making is that maybe some are so concerned with their own abilities, that appreciating others' abilities lends itself to making their own abilities (or lack thereof) seem weak and insignificant. So, to keep their own delusions of grandeur intact, they ignore better players.

That's what I'm thinking, anyway. fwiw

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
I think some type of conscious thought is getting in the way of appreciating the greatness of, in this case, the violin music. The author of the aritcle commented on how many of the small children stopped and listened....Make sense?

It makes a lot of sense, Jeff. I believe that children are far less likely to be swayed by the environmental variables and biases that sometimes make adults unable to judge performances objectively. Using your example, an adult looks at a train station instrumentalist and sees somebody down on their luck and scraping to make financial ends meet, but the child sees no more than a person playing an instrument, and is able to focus entirely on the music.

In simplest terms, it's tough to take the train station instrumentalist seriously because of the enviornment in which they perform and the circumstances under which they perform.
 
Had this experiment been done with Paul McCartney or Paul Simon playing guitar the results may have been quite different. Had this experiment been performed in Toronto where buskers must audition before getting a license to play in the subway the results may have been a little different. Had the guy been playing a Yamaha violin the results would not be any different, so the value of the instrument is a red herring. To extrapolate this experiment to all appreciation of greatness is a bit of a stretch, but in general the appreciation of greatness is not universal, nor should it be expected (which is the sense I get from this article and thread).

Dave
 
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