Why Bother With Pool On TV?

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I'm sure I'm missing something here or have wrong info?but here we go anyway. I have read that it cost the WPBA about $20,000 or more to tape each WPBA Classic show for ESPN. The show only draws .03 and has very few advertisers. The WPBA must be losing big money putting these matches on TV then. My question is my bother? Is it done for the few like Jeanette Lee that reap from it? Who owns the production company taping this? Also no one really cares to watch pool on TV in its present form. People watching ANY sport/game on TV want to know what the purse and winner's share is. The WPBA thinks this should remain a mystery. Take pool off TV and give the wasted money into the purses. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
I'm sure I'm missing something here or have wrong info?but here we go anyway. I have read that it cost the WPBA about $20,000 or more to tape each WPBA Classic show for ESPN. The show only draws .03 and has very few advertisers. The WPBA must be losing big money putting these matches on TV then. My question is my bother? Is it done for the few like Jeanette Lee that reap from it? Who owns the production company taping this? Also no one really cares to watch pool on TV in its present form. People watching ANY sport/game on TV want to know what the purse and winner's share is. The WPBA thinks this should remain a mystery. Take pool off TV and give the wasted money into the purses. Johnnyt
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Johnny, my educated guess puts that number at $40,000 or more.

$40K is low budget. $60K is nice and $100K + is Jam-Up.

Pocket cams, overhead cams and floating cams seriously add to the production costs along with voice talent, illustrators and overlays.

Mj
 
Johnnyt said:
I'm sure I'm missing something here or have wrong info?but here we go anyway. I have read that it cost the WPBA about $20,000 or more to tape each WPBA Classic show for ESPN. The show only draws .03 and has very few advertisers. The WPBA must be losing big money putting these matches on TV then. My question is my bother? Is it done for the few like Jeanette Lee that reap from it? Who owns the production company taping this? Also no one really cares to watch pool on TV in its present form. People watching ANY sport/game on TV want to know what the purse and winner's share is. The WPBA thinks this should remain a mystery. Take pool off TV and give the wasted money into the purses. Johnnyt
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Well as far as the $$ goes, Im not sure I agree with you. I have seen newcomers take a keen interest in a match when they are told they are watching "the best players in the World" only to totally abandon it after asking "How much do they make?" and finding out. Advertising first prize of 12.5k cant be a good thing IMHO.

I must admit the WPBA strategy of building the game hasn't worked well yet but just imagine the total lack of interest if they were never on TV. The Casinos certainly wouldnt pay the 40K or whatever the fee is to get the tournament. They need to know that their name will be mentioned on TV over and over for the next 15 years or so.

D
 
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MikeJanis said:
Johnny, my educated guess puts that number at $40,000 or more.

$40K is low budget. $60K is nice and $100K + is Jam-Up.

Pocket cams, overhead cams and floating cams seriously add to the production costs along with voice talent, illustrators and overlays.

Mj
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Thank you Mike. I had heard two numbers 20k and 30k for it and took the lesser. Wow 40k a pop. That's over $300,000 more that could be added to the purses and having 50% of the women earning some kind of a living instead of losing money for most tournaments. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
I'm sure I'm missing something here or have wrong info?but here we go anyway. I have read that it cost the WPBA about $20,000 or more to tape each WPBA Classic show for ESPN. The show only draws .03 and has very few advertisers. The WPBA must be losing big money putting these matches on TV then. My question is my bother? Is it done for the few like Jeanette Lee that reap from it? Who owns the production company taping this? Also no one really cares to watch pool on TV in its present form. People watching ANY sport/game on TV want to know what the purse and winner's share is. The WPBA thinks this should remain a mystery. Take pool off TV and give the wasted money into the purses. Johnnyt
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Don't forget that they resell that package globally.

Are your basing your viewing averages nationally for the US ?

If they produce and package the event themselves (bringing in a TV production company as a sub-contractor) so in-house as so to speak, they can sell it to whom ever they like, retaining image rights, distribution rights and ability for DVD sales. They can even repackage that show in different continents with different program sponsors (slide ad before and after the show / advert breaks. ESPN also has franchises world-wide too, like ESPN Star in Asia; that act independently of each other that provide a vehicle for them to do this.

It's not just about a few people watching a late night broadcast in some states in America. The world is a little bigger than that.

.
 
Ste said:
Don't forget that they resell that package globally.

Are your basing your viewing averages nationally for the US ?

If they produce and package the event themselves (bringing in a TV production company as a sub-contractor) so in-house as so to speak, they can sell it to whom ever they like, retaining image rights, distribution rights and ability for DVD sales. They can even repackage that show in different continents with different program sponsors (slide ad before and after the show / advert breaks. ESPN also has franchises world-wide too, like ESPN Star in Asia; that act independently of each other that provide a vehicle for them to do this.

It's not just about a few people watching a late night broadcast in some states in America. The world is a little bigger than that.

.
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I don't think their selling too many packages outside the US. Bottom line...is TV making a profit for them or is it costing them big bucks with no ROI? Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
I don't think their selling too many packages outside the US. Bottom line...is TV making a profit for them or is it costing them big bucks with no ROI? Johnnyt
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I don't know the answer to that one.

But I do know its sold (event specific) in the UK to Sky and Eurosport, Premiere in Germany and to ESPNStar in Asia. When you look at the footprint those broadcasters have - they be getting more than the production costs back - even if its just through tailored advertising per region sales/broadcasts.

It is of course possible that - they could be doing all this and just not negotiating contracts very well.
.
 
Johnnyt said:
I don't think their selling too many packages outside the US. Bottom line...is TV making a profit for them or is it costing them big bucks with no ROI? Johnnyt
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Doing biz with ESPN is brutal at best, they didnt pay a friend of mine who was a boxing promoter, we had 10 shows/year at the Orleanes(will replace the Riv someday) they were paying him $50,000/show 3-4 times/year the other shows went into Centeral and South America on ESPN Depotes their market down south, Anyways they wernt paying Nick on some technical thing they never paid him everything they owed around a million they accrued over a 4 year period, Nick still kept the show going for years before and after, In the end he was letting ESPN come in for free because he could charge others(advertizers) more because of ESPN's presence. In the end Nick got screwed bad by ESPN ~$1M..that show is gone after 9 years, it was great, I worked with the ring card girls most of the time.

the bottom line is ESPN isnt losing $$$ on any show they produce or in the boxing thing they just had a camera crew there(not our normal guys) and their name(ESPN). Believe me those guy's aint helping anyone, if they werent banking big $$$ they wouldnt be there. They are in the business of making $$$$, sports is just their content not their passion. thats the harsh reality.
 
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Fatboy said:
Doing biz with ESPN is brutal at best, they didnt pay a friend of mine who was a boxing promoter, we had 10 shows/year at the Orleanes(will replace the Riv someday) they were paying him $50,000/show 3-4 times/year the other shows went into Centeral and South America on ESPN Depotes their market down south, Anyways they wernt paying Nick on some technical thing they never paid him everything they owed around a million they accrued over a 4 year period, Nick still kept the show going for years before and after, In the end he was letting ESPN come in for free because he could charge others(advertizers) more because of ESPN's presence. In the end Nick got screwed bad by ESPN ~$1M..that show is gone after 9 years, it was great, I worked with the ring card girls most of the time.

the bottom line is ESPN isnt losing $$$ on any show they produce or in the boxing thing they just had a camera crew there(not our normal guys) and their name(ESPN). Believe me those guy's aint helping anyone, if they werent banking big $$$ they wouldnt be there. They are in the business of making $$$$, sports is just their content not their passion. thats the harsh reality.
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Very true FB - and you know that for a majority of their content people pay them to broadcast it instead of them buying the content.

Ya don't get rich by writing checks.
.
 
Well most of you on here already are over my head on how TV deals work. I'll just step back. Johnnyt
 
I think that sponsors might be paying at least half of the cost and the other half comes from the tour,I doubt they foot the whole bill or would be able to do that.Its sad that pool isn't being shown on tv,when was the last time pool was shown live on tv?I think TAR,myself and the IPT will be the only way to see pool regularly until we got more people putting something together in their area.I hope that one day the streams are of very high quality where the major tournaments will all be streamed free via the net as its cheaper to do.When the fans start watching in larger numbers the pool stream providers can get better sponsors and do more events and also have the money for equipment and expenses. Numbers equal sponsors which equals better equipment and more broadcast so the fans,sponsors and the sport will benefit,it all goes hand in hand. :smile:
 
Johnnyt said:
I don't think their selling too many packages outside the US. Bottom line...is TV making a profit for them or is it costing them big bucks with no ROI? Johnnyt
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Johnny,as you know, the WPBA events have been consistently on TV for many years. Clearly, they are making a profit by selling the ad time minutes that they retain (ESPN sells what the WPBA doesn't sell).

It is those ad sales that funds the prize money and other significant operating costs that they must pay. If they were not selling ad time for more than their costs, they would have folded the tour long ago.

Actually, for a tape delay "time filler" for ESPN's daily schedule, the WPBA programs pull decent enough rating and share numbers to sell ad time for a fair amount of money.

Regards,
Jim
 
Ste said:
Don't forget that they resell that package globally.

Are your basing your viewing averages nationally for the US ?

If they produce and package the event themselves (bringing in a TV production company as a sub-contractor) so in-house as so to speak, they can sell it to whom ever they like, retaining image rights, distribution rights and ability for DVD sales. They can even repackage that show in different continents with different program sponsors (slide ad before and after the show / advert breaks. ESPN also has franchises world-wide too, like ESPN Star in Asia; that act independently of each other that provide a vehicle for them to do this.

It's not just about a few people watching a late night broadcast in some states in America. The world is a little bigger than that.
.
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Sorry, I have to debunk that story. In billiards when you produce an event for ESPN you get no release value. In fact, they do not even pay you. They take it for free and allow you to have X amount of commercials on the 1st or 2nd viewing (sometimes more but rarely) and that's all you get and you have to sell the ads. After that specified # of airings with your commercials it all becomes theirs and they turn it into "Classic Pool" and now they own 100% of the rights including the commercials. Also, because this programming was "Given To Them" the product is theirs and you may not sell it in any other market.

Additional problems withg ESPN is that they have a list of companies that you may not ask to become sponsors of the event or even buy commercials. These are TOP Major Companies in the US and World and if you do an ESPN event you can not get their $$$.

Mj
 
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MikeJanis said:
Sorry, I have to debunk that story. In billiards when you produce an event for ESPN you get no release value. In fact, they do not even pay you. They take it for free and allow you to have X amount of commercials on the 1st or 2nd viewing (sometimes more but rarely) and that's all you get and you have to sell the ads. After that specified # of airings with your commercials it all becomes theirs and they turn it into "Classic Pool" and now they own 100% of the rights including the commercials. Also, because this programming was "Given To Them" the product is theirs and you may not sell it in any other market.

Mj
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Hi Mike,

I already mentioned that in a response to Fatboys post.

Some content they pay for & a lot of it they don't.

.
 
Ste said:
Hi Mike,

I already mentioned that in a response to Fatboys post.

Some content they pay for & a lot of it they don't.

.
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Also see edited addition/:

Additional problems withg ESPN is that they have a list of companies that you may not ask to become sponsors of the event or even buy commercials. These are TOP Major Companies in the US and World and if you do an ESPN event you can not get their $$$.


This has also been one of the MAJOR problems with getting BIG sponsors in our sport. They want TV and we can not give it to them.
 
MikeJanis said:
Also see edited addition/:

Additional problems withg ESPN is that they have a list of companies that you may not ask to become sponsors of the event or even buy commercials. These are TOP Major Companies in the US and World and if you do an ESPN event you can not get their $$$.


This has also been one of the MAJOR problems with getting BIG sponsors in our sport. They want TV and we can not give it to them.
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Do you have "Restriction of Trade" laws in the US - or how are you dissuaded from approaching these companies by ESPN ?

.
 
Ste said:
Do you have "Restriction of Trade" laws in the US - or how are you dissuaded from approaching these companies by ESPN ?

.
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I ain't to savvy on those laws.

ESPN puts it to you like this. Bend Over and take our rules. Not even a kiss.

They simply give you a list stating that they agree to air your show when you give it to them and produced by these accepted companies to these minimum standards and oh, here is a list of companies you may not have as sponsors/advertisers. ( 80 pages later ) . Take it or leave it. Your signature goes here stating you agree.
 
Tv

Wow, 20-40k to televise a tournament and it airs sixs months later, no wonder there's no money in pool. Air the Derby City Classic and the US open live, and then see how that works for ya. Now we got action, you think they would figure that out by now.
 
chipperd said:
Wow, 20-40k to televise a tournament and it airs sixs months later, no wonder there's no money in pool. Air the Derby City Classic and the US open live, and then see how that works for ya. Now we got action, you think they would figure that out by now.
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Ummm, great idea.

They did that with the US Open on PPV back in 02.

It didnt work so good due to time constraints so they put the players (Alex and Soquet) on something like a 10sec shot clock. It looked comical watching the players run around the table and was a disgrace to those players.

However, I do commend them (US Open) for doing it. They just need to tweak the time frame a little better. other than the time problem it was a great idea.

Mj
 
MikeJanis said:
I ain't to savvy on those laws.

ESPN puts it to you like this. Bend Over and take our rules. Not even a kiss.

They simply give you a list stating that they agree to air your show when you give it to them and produced by these accepted companies to these minimum standards and oh, here is a list of companies you may not have as sponsors/advertisers. ( 80 pages later ) . Take it or leave it. Your signature goes here stating you agree.
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Ouch.

Strange - Is it because nobody has had a combination of a strong enough product & chutzpah to drop a rabid (not rabbi) lawyer on these guys ?

I would have though that in a place like America, that would have been done already. Especially knowing that if the product was strong enough - they would still broadcast on ESPN after they settle out of court or take the broadcast elsewhere.

.
 
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