Why can’t I just get better?

Willowbrook Wolfy said:
A lot of good info here to read through. Nobody caught the question/answer. Moving the balls where you want them is just as important as shape. In a simple sense it’s Like taking a combo shot to the hanger over just the hanging ball. Or caroming off 2 balls for shape instead of going around them. You can be good with one, but not great without the other.
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Now if that's the kind of information you were looking for then, why, disguise it asking about other facets?
Here's a reading assignment for ya. Obtain a copy of " The Eight Ball Bible " by R Givens. Utilize it for all it's
worth then report back. See ya in about 2 years.

hank
 
TheBasics said:
Now if that's the kind of information you were looking for then, why, disguise it asking about other facets?
Here's a reading assignment for ya. Obtain a copy of " The Eight Ball Bible " by R Givens. Utilize it for all it's
worth then report back. See ya in about 2 years.

hank
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No I was more along the lines of complaining a bit and trying to let others know sometimes you have to get worse to get better. That was the point of why can’t I just get better. Plus with all the knowledge that’s been given on here it could improve a lot of peoples games. Mine included. I really have been having trouble getting out focusing on just one ball lately though. That’s a true statement. I normally don’t play that way. But at the same time should be able to run out in that manner. I wanted to see other members opinions on this. There are at least 5-6 members posts here that are just awesome. Great info.

I’ve kept up with mid to upper shortstops with my style of 8 ball game. But it’s just not enough. Need that perfect shape also. Otherwise they’re gonna smoke me in nine

The thing is as others have posted you don’t see pros moving around too many balls. I want to know why that is? I’d much rather carom off an opponents ball for shape sometimes. Maybe I have a clear shot on the 8 to only 1 pocket and a pretty easy out. Well that’s nice. But wouldn’t even someone at the top tier want to move an opponents ball a little to give themselves 2 possible shots on the 8 when they get there? I see them safety instead of playing some easy breakouts. With the way some players can kick these days safeties aren’t as effective anymore. But Pros miss too. So who knows? Cocobola knows!
 
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I play both 9 and 8 every week. Takes me a game or 3 to 'get in the game' since each are different discipline's.
You said you position yourself for multiple shots, meaning you look for a spot on the table to be at then decide which of many to shot at next? If so, there's one of your larger problems. Imagine looking at 3 different balls and then the many possible patterns off those. Getting a headache yet? I used to in my prime. Next morning I'd be mentally drained, similar to a hangover. But I was usually MVP every year, tho that took a lot out of me.

9 Ball is basically simple. 1 then 2 then 3 then etc.. Rather mundane, no?
8 Ball is crowded, one has to look at it as a multi-position puzzle, sometimes like chess. It's planning a pattern then connect the dots. If you find you're off your pattern by the 2nd or 3rd ball, then that was the wrong pattern. Of course there are times you'll have to make mid-course corrections but hopefully those are few. When you can DO your pattern perfectly, you'll find it's a really quick game. A few of my 8 Ball games went less than a minute... then I get called a (one of the nicer names) hustler. :rolleyes:
Breaking balls out is a different animal, not going there, explanations are many.

I highly suggest to play some Caroms. That games discipline is higher than 9 ball. Play it and find out. BUT!!! do not play Caroms before your regular league or tournament play unless you're looking to learn that tables rolls & quirks.
MY Carom game is more involved than just 3 or 4 balls on the table. It can be a short game, tho rare, but it's usually is rather long, say 20 to 45 minutes long.

ANYWAYS. . . . hope this helps.
 
Chili Palmer said:
Excellent points about the travel distance and speed (I never really separated 8B and 9B like that but that will surely screw me up now :)) but I think the small distance draw shots comments is excellent points to what I call "close quarters combat", you have to learn to move the CB this way, that way, or the other way - all within a VERY short distance.

I've noticed that lower skilled players tend to focus on "top left" or "draw" and they're not focusing on 1/4 tip down, 1/8 tip top or most importantly separating the top/draw from left/right - i.e. does this shot take a 1/2 tip top and 1/8 tip left or 1/2 tip top and 1/16 tip left - big difference. Meaning, they just know how to draw a little or a lot and they haven't quite learned the intricacies of how small tip movements and minor adjustments in grip can help manipulate the ball in tight quarters.
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You made it even more difficult now🙀
 
Willowbrook Wolfy said:
I see them safety instead of playing some easy breakouts.
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From what I can tell, most of the pros are probably 75% to get out of a rack of eight ball with a good opening shot and no bad clusters. It seems like taking chances will hurt you more often than not.

Floyd_M said:
If you find you're off your pattern by the 2nd or 3rd ball, then that was the wrong pattern.
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Wow, that's profound. I always thought it was my sloppy position play. But I guess that means I chose the wrong pattern for my skillset.

My biggest problem is coming to the table with nothing to work with. No good shots to play position off of, balls in the way so I can't play position, clusters I can't get to, or if I can, they are likely to help my opponent just as much. The people I usually play usually aren't that dangerous so I have learned to straight up waste a shot or even take an intentional early in the game so I don't get stuck later when my opponent has a clear table.

I really need to work on safeties, breakouts, and recovery shots. It seems like so many of the drills I see are geared towards making the most of acceptable conditions. There are so many that start with ball in hand and I can usually keep a good thing going, but I come to the table without enough to work with so often. I'd honestly say well over half my losses are not unforced errors, but being unable to play out of a weak position.
 
I
tomatoshooter said:
From what I can tell, most of the pros are probably 75% to get out of a rack of eight ball with a good opening shot and no bad clusters. It seems like taking chances will hurt you more often than not.


Wow, that's profound. I always thought it was my sloppy position play. But I guess that means I chose the wrong pattern for my skillset.

My biggest problem is coming to the table with nothing to work with. No good shots to play position off of, balls in the way so I can't play position, clusters I can't get to, or if I can, they are likely to help my opponent just as much. The people I usually play usually aren't that dangerous so I have learned to straight up waste a shot or even take an intentional early in the game so I don't get stuck later when my opponent has a clear table.

I really need to work on safeties, breakouts, and recovery shots. It seems like so many of the drills I see are geared towards making the most of acceptable conditions. There are so many that start with ball in hand and I can usually keep a good thing going, but I come to the table without enough to work with so often. I'd honestly say well over half my losses are not unforced errors, but being unable to play out of a weak position.
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was going with safety reference due to my opponents as of late and some higher level matches. I was playing an SL 6/7 and he kicked in 2 out of my 3 safes. 1 was slop, other was just a nice shot. Neither were ducks. And he also hit another kick during play off his own f up! It seems like you read/see more and more upper level players sinking the hard kick shots. A lot of times the player hitting the kicks is the victor.

If you really think about it. Only defense against an awesome kicker is to not give them kickshots. One way to do that is effectively increase your offense. You can’t always put them in jail.
 
Chili Palmer said:
To me, 8B is ball selection and 9B is execution. In 8B, you need to pick the right balls to run the rack in 9B, you need to execute the right shots to run the rack. Yes, 9B also has shot selection but it's more attuned to "pattern" selection, how do I want to get on this ball to get to that ball, but you don't have a choice on the balls ;)
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This^^^^ ...and
Chili Palmer said:
Some of the key things I've learned from experience, listening, and watching are:

1) Move the CB as little as possible
2) Use the tangent line
3) Speed control
4) Don't touch stuff you don't need to touch.

The first three things all affect the fourth, the moment you add anything to the mix it complicates things. I agree that sometimes it's beneficial to touch something else but if I'm on a run and there's nothing blocking any of my balls then why would I hit another object ball and take a chance to slow the movement of the CB, change the trajectory of the CB, etc.

Generally speaking, those are the rules I follow and I try not to touch anything I don't have to, that being said, banging balls with friends (even a friendly competition) I will most definitely have fun sometimes and try to move stuff and screw up other peoples stuff.
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That^^^^

Tons of ways to make playing 8 ball harder on yourself, but the guidence above is the best approach imo.

Although I'm not a pro by any stretch of the imagination, I am a fairly decent 8 baller. Rarely does altering my opponent's layout come into play. That's just additional noise in the equation imo. Is it a byproduct of working through a pattern...?..., maybe but the point is I never do it purposely unless I have zero options.

Concentrate on your patterns and managing clusters you need to deal with. Take care of problems immediately. The single biggest problem I see weaker players continually repeat is leaving 'issues' until later within the pattern. Usually they get out of line from the perfection needed and end up screwing themselves. When you identify your problems and how you need to deal with them, think INSURANCE BALL next.
 
There’s a big difference between pros and joes so you can’t base everything off what they do.

Depending on yours and opponents skill it might be beneficial long term to put a little effort into tying up their balls, blocking pockets etc.

A pro is basically always trying to run out in 8 ball. If there are clusters they’re thinking of how to break them, safeties don’t exist, it’s a run out game. At lower levels there’s often more than one inning so table management stuff can come into play.

I still subscribe to the “touch nothing if you don’t need to” mentality.


I did come up with a 8-ball version I really liked playing. I need to find the old APA dudes I played it with and see if they’re still down. It was fun. I called it ‘even 8-ball’

Basically once player A makes the 8, player B then spots the 8 and has to run all his remaining balls and the 8, from wherever player A left the cue ball when pocketing the original 8. Only one chance to do so, if he runs them all then no one scored that game. If he misses it’s a point to A.

This gives you an incentive during play to nudge balls and make your opponent’s layout as tough as possible because you know he will have a table with only his balls to try to run out with. And if he’s only got one ball left you best position the cue ball carefully when making the 8.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
I don't know what the fx billiards "acid test" is, a preliminary search gave no conclusive results. I presume it's some sort of draw shot drill?

You should choose drills that work on the areas at which you are weak. So the fact that you are struggling is a good sign. It means this part of your game needs work. HOWEVER, if you are not making progress, you are probably doing something fundamentally wrong, and to make matters worse you are setting those bad habits in concrete, by repeating them over and over. Videotape yourself, and watch carefully or upload it and let others watch it. If that doesn't show anything too conclusive, try setting up a draw shot into a small pocket and gradually increase the distance, shot by shot. The moment you feel yourself starting to struggle, try to notice what is happening in your stroke.

If it's a drill which requires lots of draw, and you are missing and/or not getting as far back as you want, I can make some educated guesses, without even seeing you play. I'm guessing that you are jerking your cue back, which either throws your entire stroking line off or messes up your back-to-forward transition in your stroke. This can both cause you to miss your object ball target and your cueball target (tip position). If that is not the case, you are likely either throwing your shoulder in to the stroke to get power, or dropping your elbow too much or prematurely. There could be other things, but I'd check for those things first if I were you. Hope this helps you.
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This is some very good advice and a lot of thinking went into it.
 
8 ball has a large portion of the shots in picking the right pattern, there is no substitution to learn that aside from following a few basic rules and playing thousands of games to see the patterns emerge. Something that looks very hard can be made much easier in 8 ball if you shoot the shots in the good order and position vs just starting with some random ball or the easiest ball vs the right one. Anything tied up of course you need to look at, and try to find a ball near them for a break out, or play a safe and move a ball to that area to create a new break out. Any balls with other balls blocking position to them need to watch out for, use the famous Buddy Hall saying "don't play position when you got it". If you have a shot on a ball not in a great area, even if it's a bit harder, don't pass up that shot since you may not be able to get to it again or can be in a harder situation later. Take a 85% shot you have not rather than trying to get an 95% shot where your chances of getting to that are 60%. From watching players lose from a winning position, seems that breaking those few strategies have cost the majority of the games, at least from players that can actually play decently that is not just from a miss on an easier shot.
 
I had a similar problem. I solved it by not playing 8-ball anymore. I'm in a 9-ball league, and I only play 9 and sometimes 7 against the ghost for practice. I notice changes in my stroke between the two games, especially if playing 8 on a bar box and 9 on a GC. I get used to a little punch stroke playing 8-ball, and find I let the stroke out a lot more playing 9-ball. I don't need both of those sets of fundaments swimming around in my head/body at the same time! As many have said, 8-ball is more orientated around the center of the table, stun shots, stop shots, little draw shots. 9-ball you often have to let your stroke out, especially if you aren't patterning the rack (you shouldn't to that).

You might try playing 8-ball on a big table. It plays a little more like 9-ball that way; more avenues for longer paths for shape, though it won't help your bar box game too much.

I also love 1-pocket, but I can't switch from 1P to 9-ball, each game ruins the other for me. I have huge respect for people who can play sporty in multiple disciplines, but I cannot.
 
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