Why can't women play as good as men?

Harvywallbanger

Harvywallbanger

Josh Eisert
Silver Member
I hope I don't get slaughtered for this but it is something I was wondering. What stops the women from getting to the level of play the men do in this sport? I'm not trying to stir anything up, just looking at reality here folks, so like I said...be kind.:) I would really like to know a serious answer.

Is it because of they're build?

Is it possible that on an average women just don't have as good eye/hand cordination as men?

Could it be simply because there are far more men than women pool players so of course the majority of men will be better. But this still doesn't explaine why at least one of them hasn't made it to men level. Yes I know...I know Allison is awesome.

Does anyone else know any other possible reasons or maybe even a good explanation?
 
I think if anything you are close on, its the percentage of women players to the men players. If you have say the top 1-2% of players becoming pros, and there are 750k men players to say 150k women.... the percentage will make it look lopsided. The numbers I used are of course figurative.
Women players can play as well as the men, I do think power breaking is an issue for some of the ladies, but it is for some of the guys as well. In games like straight pool etc where there is no power break, there were certain women players who could definately compete with anyone.... Balukas, Loree Jon etc. And as far as progressing to the absolute highest levels of competition, I think that without playing the same level of players as the men pros get to play.... it does have a negative effect.
Its not nature.... its environment.
Chuck
 
You are apparently forgetting all the discussion lately, about Jasmin Ouschan.
She finished in the top 8, with the best straight pool players on the planet, just a month or so ago...and has already run over 100 several times. She also just finished in the top 8 in a 9-ball event that was all men. Sure hope she decides to play in the DCC next year!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
There have been several posts concerning this issue, and the debate has and will go on for years. I've heard all the opinions concerning break power, eye/hand coordination, and even the "gatherers/hunters" theories. None of it really makes sense to me. Especially in the break opinions as I usually start off breaking harder than most women can break, but as I get a feel for the table, my break softens up to a speed very easily accomplished by any woman player. It just simply has to be numbers. Go to a womans tour stop, and out of a field of 64 players, there are probably 4-5 players that could hold their own in a field of men, while the rest of the field play at a level that can be seen on any given Saturday night at your local pool room. Todays top women players are probably Allison, Karen, and Jasmin? And look at who they have to beat to stay on top? Compared that to who a male player has to beat in order to come out on top, and you have your answer. Women are playing against lesser numbers, and have to conquer a lesser skill level in order to come out on top of their field, while the men are dealing with greater numbers, and having to top greater skill levels.
I think it's totally possible for a woman to play with the best of the men, but she's not going to get to that level if all she's competing against are a few great women players and another dozen B players.
dave
 
RiverCity said:
I think if anything you are close on, its the percentage of women players to the men players. If you have say the top 1-2% of players becoming pros, and there are 750k men players to say 150k women.... the percentage will make it look lopsided. The numbers I used are of course figurative.
Women players can play as well as the men, I do think power breaking is an issue for some of the ladies, but it is for some of the guys as well. In games like straight pool etc where there is no power break, there were certain women players who could definately compete with anyone.... Balukas, Loree Jon etc. And as far as progressing to the absolute highest levels of competition, I think that without playing the same level of players as the men pros get to play.... it does have a negative effect.
Its not nature.... its environment.
Chuck
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I am a supporter of women's pool. I enjoy watching them play and have talked with many of them on occasion. But reality must be acknowledged, and I don't think there is a reasonable comparison between men and women yet. There are a few women that can compete in general. But haven't a chance to win against the top players in a comprehensive format like the IPT. Yes, Jasmine has run a 100 a few times and has "competed" with men. How many men have run 200, many times. She's great, I love the way she plays, her intensity, everything. She won't place anywhere near the top at DCC, although I would love to see her try.

The question, appropriately, is why? I think its a combination of all of the things mentioned. Eye hand, mentality, exposure to quality play. Perhaps someday the barriers will be more broken down so that the talented young players like Jasmin will get the exposure they need to learn and will be able to complete and win, with the top men players. Heaven knows we need a little more class at the top of the mens ladder, unlike the women whom already have it. But thats our shortcoming.
 
Scott Lee said:
You are apparently forgetting all the discussion lately, about Jasmin Ouschan.
She finished in the top 8, with the best straight pool players on the planet, just a month or so ago...and has already run over 100 several times. She also just finished in the top 8 in a 9-ball event that was all men. Sure hope she decides to play in the DCC next year!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Scott, do you think her running over a hunderd several times puts her high on the straight pool list? Its great she did so well, in both events. It would be nice if she could go to DCC and hang with some real talent, and perhaps get the exposure to kick her game up a notch. It might not take much. But its early to suggest that she can compete and win against men at a professional level.
 
(referring to it being number ratio)Possibly, but its not like a woman pro only plays other woman. In a women tournament, yeah, but they grew up in the same pool halls as men and so on and so forth. Its not like a woman only plays and practices with other women. There are no "Men Only" tournaments. Women play with the men in tournaments all year round. I think there is something else at work here.
 
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the same phenomena is occuring for women in science and engineering.
 
Deadon said:
Scott, do you think her running over a hunderd several times puts her high on the straight pool list? Its great she did so well, in both events. It would be nice if she could go to DCC and hang with some real talent, and perhaps get the exposure to kick her game up a notch. It might not take much. But its early to suggest that she can compete and win against men at a professional level.
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For being only 20, and competing well against top male 14.1 players, yes, I think it puts her high on the list. Are you suggesting that there was no REAL talent at the recent World Straight Pool Champiionships? :eek: I guess we'll just have to take a "wait and see" approach to what she does in the future, against the better men players, at other games. Top 8 says to me that she's already proved herself in 14.1. Yes, it's only one tournament, but she showed she can hang with the best, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Numbers game

Humm...Not too sure why we are defending Jasmin this early in her career, but I guess it makes for good conversation.

Jasmin is just one diamond in the rough. I agree completely with RiverCity when he sites that the number of female players to male players is overbearingly low. Not as low as it used to be, but dedicated female numbers are not even in the same world of true dedicated male players' numbers.

If there are say 100 million males playing pool world wide, how many females do you think are playing regularly? 1 million...maybe? Hell, there are females out there that have never picked up a cue that are naturally talented at the game and potential world OPEN champions, but we'll never see them compete.

The rest of the world is catching up in every sport that the USA used to dominate in. Maybe our children's children will see a stronger field of female competitors on the 9' green.

Gene
 
there are differences between men and women and one of them is target directing motor skills. This difference hasn't been proven to be biological or sociological. For example, socially women in general haven't been brought up to develop skills such as throwing a ball, dart, or aiming pool cue so there are potentially more women out there that have the ability that haven't had a chance to try it. Another example from evolutionary psychology, is that it has been primarity men that have hunted and searched for food. There are a number of theories but the fact is that as far as directing objects to a target, men excel.

Of course women excel at things men do not, women multi-task better than men, are faster at tests of perceptual speed, can tell better when objects are displaced (this is why women know where thier husbands keys or wallet is) , and in situations when asked to list objects of similar nature (e.g. words that begin in L or things that are blue) Men have thier specializations too, spacial perception and rotation, target directing, mathematical reasoning, to name a few. One interesting thing is that women have more connectivity between hemispheres of the brain in the area called the corpus collosum. This in general terms allows women to do general tasks easier and men more specialized.

This of course is speaking in generalities. For example if a women score on average, of 100 and a men score 105 it's not that women score from 95-105 and that men score 100-110. There is far more overlap where women score 50-150 and men score 55-155. This is why some women do better than men in pool, but if you average it out, men will come slightly ahead.
 
Theres nothing physical that would have any bearing on the required manual skills involved. Women are just as capable of a high level of hand eye coordination, and judgement. As stated previously, I think it is a lack of constant high level competition more than anything. Even though some of the ladies may play tournaments against men etc.... its not the same. It would be like taking a championship college football team against the superbowl champions. Yes the college team is very skilled and talented, but they are not as polished and seasoned as the nfl team (very rough comparison, but hopefully you get where Im going with it). Now every once in a while, you have the Allison Fishers, Loree Jon Jones' the Jean Balukas's etc. who can play with anyone and compete.
There is also a social aspect to it, that makes pool seem like more of a mens game, and not so ladylike. Its a stigma that has been around for a very long time. So you have young men who are encouraged, and young ladies who are not. But if you notice, most of the women that people generally agree to be the best of the best are the ones who have played and were encouraged from an early age.
There are alot of things involved, and every case is different.... but people need to quit looking at it from the physical angle, its just not so.
Chuck
Sorry, just read your post above, not trying to be argumentative.... :)
 
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Cuedog said:
The rest of the world is catching up in every sport that the USA used to dominate in. Maybe our children's children will see a stronger field of female competitors on the 9' green.

Gene
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I agree with you, Gene, but I don't believe it will take that long in pool...at least for ladies coming into their own. I do, however, believe that it will come from Asia, before it shows much in the U.S. The way the Chinese government has gone after other sports, pool cannot be too far away... especially now that it is more of a 'world' sport, with participation from many countries. With Wu winning the world 8-ball and 9-ball titles at 16, I think that you'll see a lot more Asian young men and women striving to achieve success in pocket billiards...probably with some kind of government subsidy! jmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
RiverCity said:
Theres nothing physical that would have any bearing on the required manual skills involved. Women are just as capable of a high level of hand eye coordination, and judgement. As stated previously, I think it is a lack of constant high level competition more than anything. Even though some of the ladies may play tournaments against men etc.... its not the same. It would be like taking a championship college football team against the superbowl champions. Yes the college team is very skilled and talented, but they are not as polished and seasoned as the nfl team (very rough comparison, but hopefully you get where Im going with it). Now every once in a while, you have the Allison Fishers, Loree Jon Jones' the Jean Balukas's etc. who can play with anyone and compete.
There is also a social aspect to it, that makes pool seem like more of a mens game, and not so ladylike. Its a stigma that has been around for a very long time. So you have young men who are encouraged, and young ladies who are not. But if you notice, most of the women that people generally agree to be the best of the best are the ones who have played and were encouraged from an early age.
There are alot of things involved, and every case is different.... but people need to quit looking at it from the physical angle, its just not so.
Chuck
Sorry, just read your post above, not trying to be argumentative.... :)
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no prob I wasn't stating that any one sex is better than the other, just that there ARE differences, and that the reasons are still being studied as to why.
 
Well i think there is several factors in why women are not as skilled as men.

1st- I think is the format women deal with in tournaments, the alternate break. Basically if you win the lag, and break and run each rack your going to win no matter what.

I know that everyone here can remember when all the mens tournamnents where winner breaks, and if you missed, someone ran several racks on you. I've seen a couple old tapes of Buddy Hall vs Johnny Archer and Buddy Hall layed down a 5 or 6 pack on him. I seen another tape of Archer vs Reyes in a race to 15, where there was several times where one of them would run 3,4, or 5 racks.

When has anyone seen a womens tournament where it was winner break?

2nd- The amount of guys playing in a tournament vs the # of women. You can goto almost any big mens tournament and its a crap shoot. Even the shortstops have a chance at winning the tournament because the level of competition is so good.

With the women, in the WPBA stops, its either Allison, Karen, Gerda, Jeanette, Helena, Vivian, Jennifer B. Ga-young, and so on. Theres only 10 girls who have a serious chance of winning the tournament.

And i dont think the break has as much to do with being able to compete with men as what people think. Yea if every guy was able to make 3 balls on the break everytime,, then you would have a good argument.

But theres several ladies who can break just as hard as the men.

If the womens events where winner breaks, I think you would see better competition because of them having to run several racks to win, and not just win the lag and break n run when its thier turn at the table.

Also, making the races longer IE race to 11 or 15 in the tournament format and then race to 9 in the TV format.

but thats just my opinion
 
Always wondered what the difference between men and women was. Seems like girls should be able to stroke a ball plenty hard enough for any shot in the game. Cueball control and position is all in the head.
 
Why the Ladies Don't Play as Well as the Men:

I'll tell you exactly why. Because none of them bet high. They rarely do, and it's rarely more than for a thousand or two. Every single male professional pool player gambles, with the exception of Tony Robles, and perhaps one or two more. But the rest of them, they all bet high. Earl used to, but he quit. Tournament pressure and gambling pressure are two different things. Compare the women players of today to Jean Balukas. She used to gamble alot, didn't she? And she supposedly played just like the men. The WPBA doesn't allow gambling, and that's why the women are inferior to men in this sport.
 
If the WPBA doesnt allow gambling then they must be blind, to think the women dont gamble. I wont name any of the ladies but I know one of them she gambles often. She even told me personally that she has someone who will back her gambling for large amounts (IE) thousands!

I am sure girls like Allison, Karen and the top 5 maybe top 10 girls in the WPBA probably dont need to gamble. But making 10-20,000$ a year isnt cutting it while on tour. Expecially when considering traveling costs.

dave
 
Harvywallbanger said:
I hope I don't get slaughtered for this but it is something I was wondering. What stops the women from getting to the level of play the men do in this sport? I'm not trying to stir anything up, just looking at reality here folks, so like I said...be kind.:) I would really like to know a serious answer.
Click to expand...
Well, that was quick. Usually there's a lag of a month between each time somebody asks this question. I think the last time was only 3 weeks ago.

It's a good question, and obviously many people think about it. I think anyone with a single canned answer is being short-sighted. At the present, there are several reasons, some weighing heavier than others.

IMO, if we take away the break, then the physical advantage that a man has goes way down, but I do think there are a small number of shots that the average man will not have to work as hard. That is, the if pool is a numbers game, then the small number of shots that might give the average man an advantage just skews the numbers more to the male side.

All that being said, when people say "social factors," there are a handful to a whole lot full of social factors that contribute to "keeping a woman down." Get rid of these, and maybe the answer will be more clear cut. Pipe dream, for sure.

A decent analogy is poker, since let's face it, poker attracts the "same type of person." The numbers game keeps thing heavily in favor of the men, yet women have won major championships (Violette, Harmon, Lieber, Duke) The number of top players who are female probably fall in line with the overall percentage of players that are women.

But poker is 99% mental. Pool still has a physical execution element. It would be interesting to see how the IPT pans out, and how the percentages compare to overall players.

Fred
 
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