Why can't women play as good as men?

[DaveK]

Michelle Wie is a great young talent, but so far she keeps doggin' it in the final round. She has yet to win a Women's tournament, let alone a Men's event.

This too is numbers related, she really hasn't played that many events, and certainly has not dedicated herself to the tour yet. I'll bet she wins 2 events within 1 year of her high school graduation, unless she goes to college (unlikely in that she has already turned pro and would not be allowed to compete in NCAA events). I'll also bet that she will get more wins on the LPGA as a teenager than any previous teenager. I will not bet on her making a cut in a mens tournament.

Dave

 

[jay helfert]

You're hedging a bit with your prediction when you say, "plays as good or better than any man." Which one is it, "as good", or "better than.".....? This reminds me of psychics who forsee "war in the very near future", which of course is going to happen somewhere on planet earth at any moment in time.

But I am not sneering at your prediction, and will remember it if it comes true, at which time I will commend you on your bold prediction. I think we'll both be dead by then.

Of course it's more likely to happen in pool than in golf or tennis. It will never happen in tennis, period. I'd love to see a professional genderless tour of par 3 golf where strength is nearly eliminated as a factor. So, when you say the day will come when a women plays better than any man - do you mean she'll be the absolute best on planet earth and dominate all comers the way Mosconi did in straight pool?

I believe a lot of the surface resentment you see towards women in sports is really at times a reaction to the crybaby attitude the media puts forth for women who don't make as much money as men in sports or draw as many large crowds. Well, it's supply and demand. I'll bet the average sports viewer (tv), can name more female than male ice skaters, and the same might even apply to tennis. Yet women create their own leagues when they have every right to play with the men any time they choose. I can understand it in tennis or golf or any sport in which power is a factor. But that's not the case with pool. If breaking the balls is an issue, simply allow the female player to employ a male assistant whose sole function is to break the balls for her. LOL.

Tommy Joe

Tommy,

I'm predicting that there will be a women player in the near future (next five years) who will be able to play on equal terms with any man. That means she will win her share of matches against the top pros and have a legitimate shot to win any tournament she enters.

Some might argue that Karen Corr has already accomplished this on the Joss Tour. But to me this is a regional tour. I'm talking about a woman who can compete on equal terms in major Open events. I'm most impressed with Jasmine Ouschan and Kelly Fisher right now. They both have a man's style game, with a big break and run out capabilities. They can put racks together, and quick.

I for one, like the idea of letting women play against the men on the IPT. That is one of it's best features.

 

[onepocketchump]

We all know the answer to this question. I don't understand why everyone is beating around the bush about it.

Practice is the issue here. Let's say we have a girls age 15 and a boy age 15 both just starting to play pool. The girl is already at a 4 to 7 year disadvantage. That young lad has been practicing stroking for at least that long. He's getting the repetitive rhythm and timing down and toning those muscles. We aren't talking about just occasionally either. This is nearly constant. You just can't expect a girl to play pool better than a guy after this kind of training.

ROTFLMAO!!!!! ) Now THAT was funny!

John

 

[gromulan]

Michelle Wie is a great young talent, but so far she keeps doggin' it in the final round. She has yet to win a Women's tournament, let alone a Men's event.

Tiger Woods played in a PGA event at 16, so did Phil Mickelson. Tiger also played in the Masters when he was 18. Both of them, as well as Jack Nicklaus, broke 80 before they were 10.

 

[Da Poet]

Awsome, just awsome Captain

We all know the answer to this question. I don't understand why everyone is beating around the bush about it.

Practice is the issue here. Let's say we have a girls age 15 and a boy age 15 both just starting to play pool. The girl is already at a 4 to 7 year disadvantage. That young lad has been practicing stroking for at least that long. He's getting the repetitive rhythm and timing down and toning those muscles. We aren't talking about just occasionally either. This is nearly constant. You just can't expect a girl to play pool better than a guy after this kind of training.

Oh man, that has to be THE funniest thing I every read about pool!

Beating around the bush,... nice choice of words!

 

[gromulan]

A regular tournament match, and that applies to Archer, Souquet, Morris or anyone else you favor.

Why not a race to 50 if they're so closely matched? How about a '10 ahead' set?

5-1 is extreme anyways. Would you take 3-2 against the same players (nine ball, not eight ball)?

I bet you won't, because despite the fact that they may post some wins in short races in tournaments, we all know that in a real match for money they are substantial underdogs against the top men.

 

[gromulan]

Here is what it is - Since the women are so ****ing weak - you can come to North Carolina and get played by Kelly Fisher. I will stake her for any amount against you. Let's just settle it on the table. Since there are any number of B players who can beat her and Jeanette bring them on. I will let you bring ANY PLAYER you want who is ranked a B player in any handicapped tournament system in America and you can bet until you run out of money.

John

Monica Webb is ranked an -A in the Atlanta handicap tournament. Can she get played by Kelly?

 

[onepocketchump]

What kind of assumptions do you suscribe to?

Tommy Joe

The one that assumes we don't yet know everything about everything. To add to it the one that says we are still evolving and what was true about out physiology and psyches 1000 years ago is not true now. I think those are pretty safe things to assume. I don't assume that men are automatically better than women just because someone has theorized that men were providers and women were gatherers. I am pretty sure that there have been situations where most of the men in a village have been eliminated through war and the women became the hunters and providers. Conversely, men can be the nurturers when they must fill that role.

I subscribe to the assumption that human beings are adaptable and that they can and do step up to fill whatever roles are required of them.

I also subscribe to the assumption that most humans are incredibly short-sighted and will argue ad infinitum using just the enviroment that they are used to for basis. It doesn't matter what the topic is, it seems to me that the argument from the shortsighted is of the attitude that it is so because it always has been so and will always remain so. I don't subscribe to that assumption.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

Regarding exclusive leagues.

The women do have a league of their own. It is discriminatory and filled with players who cannot ever compete with the top men. It is perfectly okay for them to have this league however since they know that, as a group, they are inferior in skill level to the majority of men professionals. The best of the women often seek to compete with the men's professional group. This is only natural progression for people with a competitive spirit.

The amateurs also have a league of their own. Several in fact. This is the place for the best players who aren't good enough to go pro to achieve their competitive goals. The best of these often seek to rise to the professional ranks.

Speaking stricty about the game of pool. I see nothing in the requirements to play the game which would indicate that men have a physical advantage over women. Anecdotally, I have seen women play perfectly with textbook (both pool and snooker) form that does not differ in the slightest from their male counterparts. Based on my 20+ years of playing and my 15+ years of fraternizing with, learning from, and playing with pro players I don't see anything that keeps women from playing as well as men - except there just aren't enough women TRYING to play as well as men yet. If anything, I will say that women have a social stigma and psychological warfare in the pool room to overcome. It has been my experience however that women in the poolroom do get their props and encouragement from men. I am sure that women have plenty of examples of disparaging remarks and sore losers. I can report however that the "boy's club" also gives out respect for a good game when someone brings it, even if it is often and unfortuately appended with "for a girl".

Tommy, thank you for the apology. I wasn't seeking to win. I am seeking to have discussion without sexist commentary.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

Monica Webb is ranked an -A in the Atlanta handicap tournament. Can she get played by Kelly?

Monica Webb can get played all day every day by Kelly. I know Monica can dab it but I'll bet everything I have down to the last tattered copy of "Rags to Rifleman" that Kelly will torture her. How about ten ahead for ten large?

John

 

[onepocketchump]

That's a nice high run, 150. I saw 9 ball players who didn't even know how to play straight pool run 80s and 90s on sheer shot-making and position play alone, guys with very little knowledge of straight pool. Lee played daily, so she says, with Gene Nagy. I'm sure he taught her a lot. But there are guys who would be considered B players who have run over a hundred. All we hear about are the disadvantages the women have, but what about the many anonymous men who are good but not quite good enough to compete with the top men? Can they play with the women on their tour? Why not?

Tommy Joe

Lee also started learning the game from Gene in her late teens. Arguably this is a disadvantage as there have been very, very few people who picked up the game at that stage in life who went on to become great. Nagy is an example as well as Lee who did and does continue to dominate in her league and always has respectable showings against the men.

If I am not mistaken I believe Lee finished rather high in at least one of the divisions of the Derby City classic and has beaten a lot of really good players in those competitions.

Pretty good for someone who started so late in life. What if Jeanette had started at six like Mosconi and had the instruction and experience she did? One can only speculate.

John

 

[Egg McDogit]

This is my opinion. The big difference between female pros and male pros is that in general, the men know the game better at this point. I think this is a big reason that Karen and Allison are so dominant in the women's tour - they know the game (lines, patterns,etc) significantly better than their competition. It's been interesting watching Allison's game evolve btw...try watching some video of her from years ago and watch a recent video. If you look at someone like GaYoung Kim, she shoots straight enough and has enough stroke to play good. Her position play just isn't there yet. It's good, but it's still male shortstop quality right now for the most part. But I think the potential's there.

To those talking about Jeanette Lee. In a long race, she's not going to beat ANY male pro...even low pro. For those that disagree, watch some video of her and take a look at her lines and pocketing. Actually if I remember right, a top middle pro spotted her 6 and shot after the break (and maybe all the breaks as well...can't remember) and robbed her. Karen Corr was also spotted big and robbed by another male pro (Santos?) some time ago. Allison Fisher turned down action against a male shortstop/low pro speed player last year in vegas - but to make things fair - I don't know what the reason was. So let's not go overboard and say that the current female players are champions when compared with male counterparts - but like I said, I think the potential is there.

As far as the guy who wants to take Karen with 5-1 against anyone - I'll take Bustamante in a race to 100 and bet everything I own and my life on it. This is not to say Karen doesn't play great, but the difference between her game and a male top pros is THAT BIG.

 

[gromulan]

Monica Webb can get played all day every day by Kelly. I know Monica can dab it but I'll bet everything I have down to the last tattered copy of "Rags to Rifleman" that Kelly will torture her. How about ten ahead for ten large?

John

I make no promises but you have perked my interest. I'll get back to you.

 

[onepocketchump]

Good point McDoggit,

would you give the same 5 to 1 odds if Karen played Bustamante 15 races to seven? That's a possible game total of 196 IF all races go hill/hill as opposed to 199 in the race to 200. The difference? If Karen wins 3 sets in 15 we are even. 4 sets and you are stuck. 5 sets and you are really stuck.

I guess one of the points we are all hung up on is whether the women can win sprints or marathons whe it comes to pool. I don't think there is a question that most of the women will lose most of the marathons. It is proven however that some of the women can win some of the sprints which is more than most of the male population can do against the best players.

Take a true B player - given that we all have the same idea of what a B player's skill level really is and put him up against 100 male pros. Do the same for Karen, Jeannete, Allison, and Kelly. I think that the women's win percentage against those pros will be signifigantly higher than the male B player's will be in short sets. Do the same thing with ten ahead sets and the women's win percentage will be much higher than the male B's although over all lower.

John

 

[CaptainJR]

Oh man, that has to be THE funniest thing I every read about pool!

Beating around the bush,... nice choice of words!

And if any of you guys are having trouble with your pool game. Make sure your training with the correct hand.

 

[BazookaJoe]

Good point McDoggit,

would you give the same 5 to 1 odds if Karen played Bustamante 15 races to seven? That's a possible game total of 196 IF all races go hill/hill as opposed to 199 in the race to 200. The difference? If Karen wins 3 sets in 15 we are even. 4 sets and you are stuck. 5 sets and you are really stuck.

I guess one of the points we are all hung up on is whether the women can win sprints or marathons whe it comes to pool. I don't think there is a question that most of the women will lose most of the marathons. It is proven however that some of the women can win some of the sprints which is more than most of the male population can do against the best players.

Take a true B player - given that we all have the same idea of what a B player's skill level really is and put him up against 100 male pros. Do the same for Karen, Jeannete, Allison, and Kelly. I think that the women's win percentage against those pros will be signifigantly higher than the male B player's will be in short sets. Do the same thing with ten ahead sets and the women's win percentage will be much higher than the male B's although over all lower.

John

Why don't you back Kelly Fisher in a trip to DCC next year. Offer the non-pro MEN some EVEN action with a GIRL and see how many takers you get.
Then we'll see how much $ you make.

 

[Egg McDogit]

hell no! I'd only bet on the long race. Playing races to 7, I don't think anyone would like giving 5:1 to someone of Karen's ability lol.

I think that the women you listed (aside from Jeanette) are all going to do better than a true B player whether it's playing ahead or sprints. Allison, Karen, and Kelly (seen her play once...was solid A speed) are all going to eat true B players alive...male or female. I've only seen Jeanette play a few times on tv (years ago) and it was middle/strong B speed iirc which is why I'm not including her with the others.

Good point McDoggit,

would you give the same 5 to 1 odds if Karen played Bustamante 15 races to seven? That's a possible game total of 196 IF all races go hill/hill as opposed to 199 in the race to 200. The difference? If Karen wins 3 sets in 15 we are even. 4 sets and you are stuck. 5 sets and you are really stuck.

I guess one of the points we are all hung up on is whether the women can win sprints or marathons whe it comes to pool. I don't think there is a question that most of the women will lose most of the marathons. It is proven however that some of the women can win some of the sprints which is more than most of the male population can do against the best players.

Take a true B player - given that we all have the same idea of what a B player's skill level really is and put him up against 100 male pros. Do the same for Karen, Jeannete, Allison, and Kelly. I think that the women's win percentage against those pros will be signifigantly higher than the male B player's will be in short sets. Do the same thing with ten ahead sets and the women's win percentage will be much higher than the male B's although over all lower.

John

 

[Egg McDogit]

Why don't you back Kelly Fisher in a trip to DCC next year. Offer the non-pro MEN some EVEN action with a GIRL and see how many takers you get.
Then we'll see how much $ you make.

Actually while we're on the subject - anyone know how the ladies play on the pro-cuts? I've actually had discussions about women's pool with friends and what it always comes back to is that the tv table pockets are too huge to clock them accurately

 

[Cornerman]

Actually while we're on the subject - anyone know how the ladies play on the pro-cuts? I've actually had discussions about women's pool with friends and what it always comes back to is that the tv table pockets are too huge to clock them accurately

The TV tables are too big, but the top ladies can shoot at the tight pockets. Karen won her lone Joss Tour title on very tight tables. I played a tournament that Tiffany Nelson won, and it was on pretty tight tables. And, I watched Vivian playing the Banks in DCC, and she didn't seem to hesitate in firing them straight back.

Fred

 

[catscradle]

.... And, I watched Vivian playing the Banks in DCC, and she didn't seem to hesitate in firing them straight back.

Fred

I've never seen Vivian hesitate at anything. She is the Luc Salvas of women's pool.