Why CTE is silly

[8pack]

^ 8pack: Why not make a post relevant to the topic of the thread? For or against.

You kinda strike me as someone who plays a lot of bingo Thats all.
Thought you might of got your bingo forum and billiards forum mixed up.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

mantis99:
When you look at the gemoetry of pool, there is no reason that the principles of CTE should not work for the majority of shots.

There are no geometric principles of CTE. Everything after "fuller or thinner than half ball" is up to the shooter.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

duckie:
CTE will work for you if the only game you play is 9 ball.

Spidey:
What does the game have to do with pocketing a ball?

Gotta agree; this makes no sense.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

There are no geometric principles of CTE. Everything after "fuller or thinner than half ball" is up to the shooter.

pj
chgo

Not true. The only thing up to the shooter is to factor in friction, if that requires any factoring at all (depending on the shot).

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There are no geometric principles of CTE. Everything after "fuller or thinner than half ball" is up to the shooter.

pj
chgo

Spidey:
Not true.

Yeah, sure.

pj
chgo

 

[GetMeThere]

Yeah, sure.

pj
chgo

When Spidey gets the write-up finished you'll be eating carpe

 

[Roger Long]

1) My deal is this: I simply am puzzled by the phenomenon of people shutting off their critical faculties around certain, selected topics. For me it's most obvious with religion: more than 80% of people actually believe there's a sky-daddy watching and judging everything they do--and, even more bizarre, they believe in the sky-daddy their MOMMA told them to believe in, while fully understanding that OTHER people believe in the sky-daddy THEIR MOMMAS told them to believe in; I find that amazing and bizarre. CTE is even MORE bizarre because it doesn't reach central issues like LIFE AND DEATH. I'm sure the "CTE believers" have jobs, or otherwise manage fine in the ordinary world that requires some contact with, and rational interaction with, reality. How they "go blank" on ONE issue really puzzles the hell out of me.

I am a Christian, but I had no objections to your previous comparisons of CTE to religion because I felt compelled to agree that there are some interesting comparisons that can honestly be made. But to refer to God as "sky-daddy" and to believers' mothers as "MOMMAS" is a bit extreme, don't you think? Couldn't you have made your point without the sarcasm and insults? I truly believe that using the terms "God" and "mothers" would have served your argument much better.

The lack of respect shown by both sides of the CTE issue is exactly the reason these threads get so far out of hand.

Roger

 

[Jal]

... Regardless, I don't believe CTE is necessarily any better or worse than any other aiming system, when it comes to actually getting it to "work."

Dr. Dave,

Can you expand on this? It seems to me you'd have to memorize a pretty large set of pivot positions or offset/pivot combinations, without the aid and comfort of ghostball, which, of course, the advocates claim to have banished. Can this be as easy or natural as ghostball or one of its direct derivatives?

...and does anybody know why spell-check is flagging "combinations?"

Jim

 

[GetMeThere]

I am a Christian, but I had no objections to your previous comparisons of CTE to religion because I felt compelled to agree that there are some interesting comparisons that can honestly be made. But to refer to God as "sky-daddy" and to believers' mothers as "MOMMAS" is a bit extreme, don't you think? Couldn't you have made your point without the sarcasm and insults? I truly believe that using the terms "God" and "mothers" would have served your argument much better.

The lack of respect shown by both sides of the CTE issue is exactly the reason these threads get so far out of hand.

Roger

Truly, I don't wish to hurt people's feelings.

The purpose of the tone of my comment was to imply that--at least as far as I'm concerned--NO idea (and thus, by implication, belief) is above criticism in any sort of "free" and sensible society. And yeah, it's also true that I'm fascinated by a comparison between how religious believers defend or think about their beliefs and CTE believers about theirs (and I congratulate you for being man enough to admit the validity of the comparison).

I DEFINITELY apologize to ALL CONCERNED for hurt feelings. People shouldn't make each other feel low...

OTOH, arguments/debates SHOULDN'T cause pain. Why should they? I'VE been reminded repeatedly by numerous posters in this thread that they think I'm a fool for dismissing CTE--and a few who could be reliably inferred to think me a fool for disbelieving their religion. I haven't sensed any worry about any possible pain to me from those posters. And probably the REASON is that they can tell that I don't feel any on these issues!

If I'm wrong I'll be HAPPY! I'm ALWAYS happy to find out I'm wrong, because it means my knowledge has broadened. You can't IMAGINE how exciting it would be for me to find out I've been COMPLETELY wrong about CTE stuff (OR religion--although, if we were to discuss it further, I'd have to qualify that one). It would be wonderful indeed to discover an entirely new perspective on aiming in pool--or to discover I had a chance to live and learn for eternity

But the ideas under discussion are only human ideas--and reality itself doesn't change, no matter what ideas people have or don't have. The trouble for people is in emotionally identifying themselves with their ideas--and then their worlds flip over when they discover they had been wrong. REALITY is never wrong, so in my goal of always getting as close as possible to reality, I can never be disappointed--and am only happier to find I've been wrong, because THEN I'm RIGHT, and even closer to the truth.

The odd thing is, though....looking from the outside at CTE and religious believers--it looks like they're more interested in what they WANT to be true than in what might actually be true in reality. That attitude sets one up for a potentially uncomfortable letdown--and maybe it's the spectre of that letdown which is the real source of pain that people feel when they're challenged.

So, again--I'm truly sorry for hurt feelings. I'm just kinda trying to give out hints that THINKING has been shown to be....more useful--a bit handier...than BELIEVING.

Without "believing," CTE doesn't seem to have much to speak for it...

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dr. Dave,

Can you expand on this? It seems to me you'd have to memorize a pretty large set of pivot positions or offset/pivot combinations, without the aid and comfort of ghostball, which, of course, the advocates claim to have banished. Can this be as easy or natural as ghostball or one of its direct derivatives?

...and does anybody know why spell-check is flagging "combinations?"

Jim

You're asking a guy who heard from somebody who heard from somebody about a system system he never learned completely is as natural or easy as ghostball.

The mere suggestion of memorizing pivot positions is ridiculous to the max. One arcs his/her tip properly and the pivot point works itself out. It's like adding by subtracting if you catch my drift. If you steer a car in a direction... eventually, the tail end will follow.

 

[dr_dave]

... Regardless, I don't believe CTE is necessarily any better or worse than any other aiming system, when it comes to actually getting it to "work."

Dr. Dave,

Can you expand on this? It seems to me you'd have to memorize a pretty large set of pivot positions or offset/pivot combinations, without the aid and comfort of ghostball, which, of course, the advocates claim to have banished. Can this be as easy or natural as ghostball or one of its direct derivatives?

To get an "aiming system" to "work" (i.e., to use it to consistently pocket balls, at an actual table), you need to practice a lot, regardless of the system.

I think the "instinct" and "feel" required to subconsciously adjust the initial alignment and/or "effective pivot length" with CTE is the same as the "instinct" and "feel" required to visualize and align to the required aiming line with ghost-ball aiming. I know some of the CTE proponents claim absolutely no conscious or subconscious "adjustment" or "feel" is required, but this is clearly wrong based on all of the descriptions, illustrations, demonstrations, and resources here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#CTE​

I agree that some "aiming systems" make more geometric sense than others in theory (e.g., ghost-ball vs. CTE); but to actually make them work in practice requires good visualization skills and focus backed up by good "instinct" and "feel" developed by many hours of practice. Also, any "aiming system" that provides a set of steps (even if the steps aren't defined "precisely") might help one develop a consistent pre-shot routine that might help improve focus and attention to aiming. Other possible benefits are listed here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#benefits​

These benefits might not apply as well to "simple" systems (like ghost-ball) for some people.

Having said all of this, I still think DAM is the best "aiming system." It is certainly used by most of the top pros. I would certainly wager that nobody could provide "scientific proof" that I am wrong.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Mikjary]

Dr. Dave,

Can you expand on this? It seems to me you'd have to memorize a pretty large set of pivot positions or offset/pivot combinations, without the aid and comfort of ghostball, which, of course, the advocates claim to have banished. Can this be as easy or natural as ghostball or one of its direct derivatives?

...and does anybody know why spell-check is flagging "combinations?"

Jim

Because you are using "combinations" in a Cte thread and most people know you can't use Cte for "combinations", caroms, banks, kicks, etc. :smilewinkgrin: Although, I'm not part of most people.

Hey Spidey...got any more popcorn?

Best,
Mike

 

[dr_dave]

The mere suggestion of memorizing pivot positions is ridiculous to the max. One arcs his/her tip properly and the pivot point works itself out.

Agreed!!!

This is what I call: using the "effective pivot length" required for a given cut angle. It doesn't require numbers, "memorization," or a "precise, geometrically valid procedure," but it does require conscious or subconscious "adjustment" based on "instinct" or "feel" (whether you admit it or not). BTW, here are some past quotes from Stan that I think are consistent with my description:

... my subconscious mind and body to take over
... A key factor in CTE is that the shooter learns to largely disengage his conscious mind from the aiming process. Your mind’s eye can easily perceive
... Is the system perfect? No. Are there adjustments at times? Yes.

Regards,
Dave

 

[GetMeThere]

Now that all this stuff (feel, subconscious aiming) starts to come up, it reminds me of ANOTHER THING I don't like about CTE: The "you just do it and the balls go in the pocket--and you don't even know why" part.

That's not what I love about pool! What any guy (whose ancestors ever threw a spear) loves about pool IS the skill of "aiming," and "hitting a target" to pocket a ball. If it all just happens by some sort of "magic" that doesn't depend on my MIND (and controlling my thoughts, perceptions, and the workings of my body)--then I'd really have no interest in playing.

What we love about pool is TRYING to pocket balls and control the cue ball, and SUCCEEDING as a result of TRYING. If I could just blink my eyes, pivot my a** and pocket balls even though my mind is telling me "wrong, wrong, wrong" about where I'm aiming....would I want to stomp around a pool table for 8 hours doing that?? No way.

I want to pocket balls by my own SKILLS, learned and earned by my own efforts.

 

[Roger Long]

The odd thing is, though....looking from the outside at CTE and religious believers--it looks like they're more interested in what they WANT to be true than in what might actually be true in reality. That attitude sets one up for a potentially uncomfortable letdown--and maybe it's the spectre of that letdown which is the real source of pain that people feel when they're challenged.

I'm not wanting to throw any fuel on the fires, but I am now curious about something: What constitutes "reality?" I just looked that word up in the dictionary and did not get a clear definition. Is reality something that you must see, hear, feel, taste, or smell in order for it to exist? If that's the case, then almost nothing in this universe exists for a deaf, dumb, and blind person. By that I mean, how could you ever prove the existence of stars to a person like that? Or how would we explain your cut-angle chart to a person like that? And yet, both you and I believe that stars, and your cut-angle chart, are very real because we've received evidence that we are willing to accept.

Let's take this a little further. Is ghost ball real? I know you can "see" it, but you can't really SEE it. And you certainly can't hear it, touch it, taste it, or smell it. Even so, many of us believe in it as a real concept because we've received evidence that we are willing to accept.

Is playing by "feel" real? Again, many of us believe so because we've received evidence that we are willing to accept.

Is God real? I believe so because I've received evidence that I am willing to accept.

EVERYBODY believes in something. And that's a reality.

BTW, I appreciate your apology. Have a great day, G.M.T.! :smile:

Roger

 

[stan shuffett]

Basic CTE and PRO ONE are extremely precise systems and my video will bear that out.

 

[mantis99]

Basic CTE and PRO ONE are extremely precise systems and my video will bear that out.

Fantastic! Any news on a release date? I have been saving some birthday money for a while waiting to see it.

As I said before, the first shred of evidence regarding the system to be released is proposed here. Why not shut the thread down until then. I am sure it will create a ton of discussion points.

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

I'm not wanting to throw any fuel on the fires, but I am now curious about something: What constitutes "reality?" I just looked that word up in the dictionary and did not get a clear definition. Is reality something that you must see, hear, feel, taste, or smell in order for it to exist? If that's the case, then almost nothing in this universe exists for a deaf, dumb, and blind person. By that I mean, how could you ever prove the existence of stars to a person like that? Or how would we explain your cut-angle chart to a person like that? And yet, both you and I believe that stars, and your cut-angle chart, are very real because we've received evidence that we are willing to accept.

Let's take this a little further. Is ghost ball real? I know you can "see" it, but you can't really SEE it. And you certainly can't hear it, touch it, taste it, or smell it. Even so, many of us believe in it as a real concept because we've received evidence that we are willing to accept.

Is playing by "feel" real? Again, many of us believe so because we've received evidence that we are willing to accept.

Is God real? I believe so because I've received evidence that I am willing to accept.

EVERYBODY believes in something. And that's a reality.

BTW, I appreciate your apology. Have a great day, G.M.T.! :smile:

Roger

If something is real, we should be able to measure it or its effects. Like dark matter. We can't touch, smell, taste, see or hear it, but we can measure the effects in space. How do you measure a god?

Ghost ball, CTE and "playing by feel" are concepts or abstract ideas. They are always real. I could come up with system xyz, and there it is. Doesn't mean it works though.

 

[stan shuffett]

Pro One based on CTE is an accurate center pocket system.

 

[randyg]

We teach CTE known as SAME AIM. If used correctly, SAME AIM takes the object ball to the center of the pocket whether you are cutting or BANKING. Might be the best Banking system I have ever used/taught.

I don't think CTE is silly, just very mis-understood.....SPF=randyg