Why CTE is silly

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Which is exactly what system users do once they've used their system to get themselves more or less approximately aligned for the shot.


Using loaded terms like "natural" is prejudicial.


...or 3) Some combination of the two, or 4) something else you haven't thought of. I think using systems is a combination of the two: the system guides you to an approximation of the required aim (more or less roughly depending on the system) and you complete the aiming process "by feel" which you learn "naturally".


As I said above, this isn't obvious at all.


You don't think CTE is fully defined, but you think there's a way to use it "with true fidelity"? I think you're contradicting yourself again.


This is just silly.


I think you're irrationally polarized on this topic.


It wouldn't be the best method for me. That's not the same as saying it's not the best method for some. Do you think everybody should aim the way you do?

pj
chgo


PJ,
I have to say that I am gaining respect for you in your last few posts (not that it was necessarily lacking before). I respect anyone's desire for due diligence on a topic before they invest in it, or there questioning of something they don't think will help them. You have shown in your last few posts that you are not simply out to disprove CTE no matter what, but that you have thoughtfully addressed the issue as it relates to you.
 
Absolutely. The problem is that we are not talking about science here, but basic geometry which has been understood for thousands of years. The only "science" involved is the everyday observation that the cueball must contact the object ball at a point opposite the pocket - the ghostball position (ignoring throw). As such, the ghostball position cannot be derived by pure geometry alone, which has, by itself, zero to say about where to aim. The starting point, the premise upon which any aiming has to begin with, has to be based on that everyday "scientific" observation. From there, you can derive various geometrically equivalent ways to locate the ghostball, instead of visualizing it in its entire glory, such as edge overlap, matching contact points, double the distance, etc.

The problem then that the "math people" have with any of these offset-and-pivot systems, is that the advocates claim to be able to locate the ghostball using only the obvious features of the cueball and object ball (and maybe pocket). In other words, they claim to be able to derive the ghostball position via pure geometry, without any direct reference to the ghostball, without the "scientifically established" starting point mentioned above. That's a non-starter and why it's not worth investigating to see whether it actually works in practice, as opposed to theory. It can't, and in that we're about as far from a scientific mystery as you can get.

The opposition hasn't tried to deny that any of these procedures might indirectly aid and abet the true aiming process - ghostball or one of its direct offshoots. But as long as the proponents keep insisting that the stand alone offset-and-pivot methods are sufficient unto themselves, we'll forever be locked in this debate.

Maybe the only resolution will be to have the advocates learn some geometry. These guys are not dumb, and for anyone with the iconoclastic fortitude to argue against the unarguable for all these years, that shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

Jim


Good post. However, my post that you referenced regarding science was in response to GMT's desire to have a scientifically designed test to prove if CTE worked, and his apparently strong bias that seemed to be hampering any real scientific testing from taking place.
 
Which is exactly what system users do once they've used their system to get themselves more or less approximately aligned for the shot...

Well, it wouldn't be what I would do (if I had a system, I'd USE it. If it told me EXACTLY where to aim I'd try to zero in on that as closely as possible).

But I guess you know best what others are doing in their heads.

"Natural" is a loaded term? I'm not selling organic foods here...It's "natural" because it's what people would do without getting any advice or training. It's what comes naturally, without extensive analysis.

Obviously, we have VERY different ideas about this topic. VERY. (and on what is prejudicial or irrational)

Step on a tack today?
 
it has helped you psychologically to (subconsciously allow yourself?) to make shots. It "works" for you

...

Exactly the same argument could be made with a "lucky hat."
CTE is obviously not a precise mechanical aiming system, but it's also obviously more than a "lucky hat". Your rigid narrowmindedness about this can only feed the troll suspicions.

pj
chgo
 
Since the diameter is 12 feet greater, the circumference is 12pi feet greater, or about 37.7 feet.

What's the relevance of this to this thread, other than yet another way to brag about your intelligence?

Oh you answered my question before I even saw the post. Which I did answer above. I don't think that question was really any way for him to brag about intelligence. It really was a very simple answer, and more like a silly party question than any real math challenge. All the hoopla about Neptune was irrelevant, as the answer would have been 37.7 ft no matter how big the original circumference was.
 
That post is the definition of closed minded. Someone who says that a system he has never tried definately does not work, and will in fact certainly hurt your game.

You seem to know an awful lot about CTE discussions on this forum for someone who has only been here since september. Somehow, I highly doubt it all came from the search button. You seem more like someone that has been here for quite a while, been banned, and created a new screen name to rile things up again. I have very little other explanation for how you could be so against a system you have not even tried, or been given the necessary info to be able to fully understand.

Your seeming is unseemly.

The implications are VERY CLEAR that CTE does not work. That can be turned around by one SINGLE outline of how CTE gives an aiming solution for one single shot. None has been given. If you're a CTE user you can step up right now and offer the data.

Otherwise, as Jal has clearly noted, the general information about CTE out there demonstrates that it CANNOT have a workable geometric basis.

So...you've figured it all out: I'm a previously banned poster :D

My posting style is rather distinctive, no? Can you recall a poster in the past who made posts like mine? Links?
 
Little Known Fact

Although most people don't realize it,
Some turtles can breath through their butts.

After following this thread, I'm starting to think that
Some people talk out of theirs.
 
I guess this wasn't bragging: "Btw, I can figure this out to within a foot, in my head, in less than a second."

I certainly didn't mean that he wasn't trying to brag, I simply meant that the question was so simple it was really nothing to brag about.

Why has there been no response to Lamas's post. It is what has been asked for all along, yet it has gone unnoticed by GMT who responds to every other persons post within minutes all day long.

I think the answer to this thread was in my last post. There is no real desire to learn anything here. Just someone who has been here before, done this before, been banned, and is back for more under a different screen name, which he appears to be rather proud of.
 
Me:
Which is exactly what system users do once they've used their system to get themselves more or less approximately aligned for the shot...
GetMeThere:
Well, it wouldn't be what I would do (if I had a system, I'd USE it. If it told me EXACTLY where to aim I'd try to zero in on that as closely as possible).
What you'd do with an exact system isn't the question. The question is whether and how actual system users may benefit from real systems like CTE that (as you've argued at length) aren't exact.

But I guess you know best what others are doing in their heads.
I'm getting a clearer idea of what you do in yours.

pj
chgo
 
CTE is obviously not a precise mechanical aiming system, but it's also obviously more than a "lucky hat". Your rigid narrowmindedness about this can only feed the troll suspicions.

pj
chgo

Troll suspicions? I've been TOTALLY forthcoming that I think CTE is bunk from the very start. Most people don't actually go farther in differentiating that from being a "troll"--if they're on the other side of the aisle.

Rigid narrow mindedness? Or merely consistency? CTE either produces shot solutions or it doesn't. If it doesn't it's worse than useless because it will produce the WRONG solution.

Perhaps our different perspectives arise because you think that everybody ultimately just goes by feel, in the final analysis. I don't, and wouldn't do that. If I had a system--one that I believed gave me the TRULY CORRECT aiming solution--I'd do all I could to zero in on the solution the system pointed to.

Indeed, I've been working on my own system (for my private use, hehe), which with a couple of easy calculations, would produce the exact angle of the shot, and the exact place to aim on the OB (divided into 64ths). Once corrected for throw, I'd attempt to aim exactly in the spot to the best of my ability--and I'd attempt to use THAT precision, to DEVELOP my feel, and not the other way around.

I see pros miss difficult shots more often than easy shots (and they sometimes actually miss easy shots, too). The likely cause isn't their stroke, but a momentary failure in their "feel" for where to aim. Don't you experience that? You aim, you miss, you feel you weren't really SURE you were on for the shot?

Especially under pressure, it would be nice to have ABSOLUTE confidence in exactly where to aim, rather than depending on "unconscious" abilities to work for you everytime. Indeed my entire interest in CTE arose from my initial look (as I consider getting back into playing after a long hiatus) to see if there were new and sophisticated ways to take some of the GUESSWORK out of where to aim.

I'll trust an exact geometric calculation over feel any day (or I'd save the feel part for adding or substracting throw/english effects).
 
This is more narrowmindedness. This doesn't come naturally to everybody. That's why there are systems.

pj
chgo

You know, that's just horseshit (the narrow mindedness part).

I've seen ZILLIONS of guys play middling pool (they could make shots, they could move the CB around) who probably never read a book in their lives. Back in the day, I was in the middle of quite a pack of such young people. We would often talk about how to play, and "systems" for aiming never came up!

Furthermore, we have the evidence of the article cited numerous times about interviews with pros, in which it was said that most if not all played "by feel" and didn't know exactly how they knew where to hit the OB.

The majority of people who have NEVER PLAYED POOL before (well, hehe, guys anyhow) can pick up a cue and within a few minutes be pocketing some easy shots--because the rough idea of how to pocket balls is quite obvious. All these people are aiming "naturally." They see a few balls get pocketed, they see the more angle you want the thinner you have to cut the ball, and they start building a (perhaps unconscious) library of thinness of cut vs angle of shot. It's obvious. It's obvious as you watch someone who has never played, but who thinks the game looks cool and they're interested, that they get better at pocketing shots quite quickly early on--without any mention of "aiming systems."

I'm not narrow minded, Patrick. And I'm certainly not irrational. I can quite assure you of those facts.
 
mantis99:
You have shown in your last few posts that you are not simply out to disprove CTE no matter what
If you think I've only shown that in my last few posts, then you haven't paid attention. I've always said that CTE obviously "works" somehow for those who use it, even though it obviously isn't an "exact" system. That distinction is the first thing lost in these arguments, by both sides.

CTE can be useful without being exact. The baby doesn't have to be thrown out with the bath water.

"It works!" vs. "It's worthless!" is an argument between two red herrings.

pj
chgo
 
...start with aiming the center of the CB to the contact point on the OB (that sends it to the target/pocket) and then a lateral, parallel shifting of the cue to the center of the OB which is a tiny shift like when the OB is 4 feet (48 inches in the example) away.

By doing this, the bridge shifts ohhh so slightly, especially on far shots
If you keep your cue parallel when you shift from pointing at one point on the OB to pointing at another point on the OB, then you must shift the same distance no matter how close or far the OB is.

A non-perspective top-view drawing accurately depicts this. The perspective view from the shooter's vantage is only accurate if you move your eyes with the cue.

pj
chgo
 
What you'd do with an exact system isn't the question. The question is whether and how actual system users may benefit from real systems like CTE that (as you've argued at length) aren't exact.

Hmmm. I'm not sure what to make of that.

If you don't have an exact system then you have an inaccurate system. If it's worth ANYTHING at all, what that means is that it's accuracy is approximate only (not that it's wildly all over the place--which I don't think ANYONE could defend).

Could it then mean that you think CTE users use the system to get them "in the ballpark" and then use their feel to go the rest of the way?

If so, that doesn't make sense to me at all. If you don't know where the ballpark is, how are you going to have a feel for even finer adjustment? Really, if I didn't know APPROXIMATELY where to aim, how could I then know EXACTLY where to aim, if only something could show me approximately first?

I would hope for the reverse (if it were possible): I determine the ballpark (as at least some versions of CTE expect: is it a 15, 30, or 45 degree shot), and then have some system for fine-tuning the aim.

But if you don't know approximately where to aim WITHOUT a system, then a system that is only APPROXIMATE is not going to help you--at least, not to pocket balls.


EDIT: And indeed, I think virtually anybody could use GB to get them APPROXIMATELY on target--if that is what is required of an aiming system (which I don't think it is). IMO, getting approximate aiming solutions isn't the problem; getting EXACT ones is the problem. An aiming system that produces approximate shot aim is a solution to a non-existent problem.
 
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GetMeThere:
if you don't know approximately where to aim WITHOUT a system, then a system that is only APPROXIMATE is not going to help you
My first assumption would be just the opposite: that an approximation system (that or "ballpark" systems is what I call them, by the way) is just what somebody who has trouble approximating might need.

Maybe you mean that if one has difficulty approximating then he must also have difficulty fine-tuning? Could be, but that doesn't mean that an approximation system can't be helpful for both.

I think it's possible (in fact, I think it's probable) that some players' latent ability to aim by feel is "unlocked" through the use of these systems. It may be because the approximation gets them close enough to finish the job or because their belief in the system gives them the confidence necessary to do it or some combination or something else. What I know is that successful aiming relies to a great extent on largely subconscious processes that we understand only dimly - certainly not enough to assume that the many users who swear they get real benefit from these systems really don't.

pj
chgo
 
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If you keep your cue parallel when you shift from pointing at one point on the OB to pointing at another point on the OB, then you must shift the same distance no matter how close or far the OB is.

A non-perspective top-view drawing accurately depicts this. The perspective view from the shooter's vantage is only accurate if you move your eyes with the cue.

pj
chgo

I was trying to support a pivot system that addresses dr.dave's conundrum of how a single shift and pivot will fail when the OB is farther away from the CB. The only way that I could resolve this for me was that the OB appears smaller at distance and has been intimated here that the shifts at distance become minute. What I had difficulty with CTE is that the shift is proported to be with regard to the CB i.e., 1/2 tip or 1 tip offset etc..
aim_fixed_pivot.jpg
 
My first assumption would be just the opposite: that an approximation system (that or "ballpark" systems is what I call them, by the way) is just what somebody who has trouble approximating might need.

That might seem like a reasonable response. After all, it works very well with artillery.

But how many people do you see who miss shots by a mile--among people who play often and try to play decently (i.e., who might CONSIDER spending $500 for a lesson)? I think none. From my experience and observations, most people have no trouble getting close (say, within 4 inches or so of the pocket), but what they have trouble with is the higher level of accuracy. And that is also borne out in my calculations: A lot of shots require some impressive accuracy. From just watching a decent player miss shots, it could be difficult to determine what proportion is due to a problem with KNOWING precisely where to aim, and what proportion is due to a failure to HIT where he has aimed. The separation between competent players and "normal, just above bangers" players is in the fine details.


Maybe you mean that if one has difficulty approximating then he must also have difficulty fine-tuning? Could be, but that doesn't mean that an approximation system can't be helpful for both.

But then we have to ask whether CTE IS a good approximation system. I don't think it is (whereas GB CERTAINLY easily fulfills that requirement in a way anyone can easily manage--again, because most people approximate fairly well with NO help). If we use the 15,30,45 style CTE to start, then one must be accurate in naming the number of degrees of the shot before anything! Even the approximations in CTE won't be any better than the player himself can provide.

First: I don't see how CTE can even be much good for approximation--at least, any better than the user of CTE himself is at approximating. Indeed, when you get down to it, as far as I can tell, the player is actually fundamentally responsible for EVERYTHING in CTE.

Second: Since none of the CTE bells and whistles uses POCKET LOCATION in ANY WAY as part of its calculation (except for preliminary 15, 30, 45, perhaps--which the adamant poster AtLarge considers the HIGHEST blasphemy, and definitely NOT part of CTE), I don't really see how it provides any useful aiming direction AT ALL. Which leaves us with:

I think it's possible (in fact, I think it's probable) that some players' latent ability to aim by feel is "unlocked" through the use of these systems. It may be because the approximation gets them close enough to finish the job or because their belief in the system gives them the confidence necessary to do it or some combination or something else.

That might be a reasonable assumption, if the evidence were clear that lots of people felt strongly that they played much better after using it. But I've tried to emphasize that such data can be VERY TRICKY, and lead to wrong conclusions. Adding that to the fact that (I assert) it doesn't do anything ANYWAY...well, coming to reliable conclusions about what's happening with it is...problematic.

IMO, all that can be said with confidence is that you can find 15 or 20 guys posting on a forum who insist it has helped them...and, well, I gotta say...I don't find their testimony (or the way they present it) very impressive (some are, though). How do we know how many there are who feel it's done NOTHING for them, or just confused them? Such people VERY OFTEN are reluctant to stand up and be counted. Maybe they feel "stupid" because they couldn't "get it." Maybe they're embarrassed to admit it didn't help them. That sort of social phenomenon is well known. Surely you don't think ALL students are going to have magical, psychic transformations--and remember that you basically agree with me that CTE isn't going to actually tell people how to really make SHOTS. So, all those students who don't get a "subconscious overhaul" aren't going to be helped. Are you prepared to say that you know that proportion is minor?


What I know is that successful aiming relies to a great extent on largely subconscious processes that we understand only dimly - certainly not enough to assume that the many users who swear they get real benefit from these systems really don't.

Playing pool certainly is susceptible to subconscious influence. But I wouldn't call aiming "subconscious" as much as I would call it "conceptionless," or "wordless." We KNOW what we're doing, but it's not easy to describe (I'd describe it as aligning visual information with proprioceptive--until what our eyes see and our arms feel meet where wordless memory tells us has worked before).

Again, I'm just not as sure of the reports as others seem to be. Such things can be...really...a MINEFIELD.

I worry that such "interpretations" get started by people, like Dr. Dave for example, who doesn't want to make big stinks--so he works out a "fudge phenomenon" through which he can offer some acknowledgement. "Yeah, it helps people psychologically." "It helps people more consistently set up." That's fine to say; but, I repeat, what's difficult to KNOW is whether a significant proportion of people really THINK they've been helped, and whether those people are RIGHT about that (or are just improving over time, with practice).**

I'd be willing to make a sizeable bet (which, happy days, probably couldn't be pulled off :D) that if you took large groups of interested pupils, taught group #1 good form and stroke + GB; group #2 good form and stroke + "cut feel" to practice; group #3 good form and stroke + CTE....

That the first two groups would do better than the third. That would be my honest opinion--and it's implicitly shared by instructors (such as Roger Long, Bob Jewett, Dr. Dave, Mike Page) who DON'T see a need to teach some version of CTE (which they could easily come up with if they wished, no doubt).

**And there's the "money phenomenon" too. Pay $500 for CTE, and I'll guarantee you that ALMOST ALL people are going to say it helped them (to say otherwise makes them look like idiots--to FEEL otherwise makes them FEEL like idiots). But if they bought it for $1.50 at Walgreens, maybe 95% would throw it in the garbage the next day.
 
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