Why CTE is silly

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Maniac: Why don't you come over to Pool School and take a two hour CTE lesson? You are welcome here.....SPF=randyg

I know I'm welcome Randy, and thanks for the invite. I just don't have the available funds at this time and I'm not so sure two hours would be enough (although it probably would be IF it was a one-on-one lesson).
Maybe at another time, when the wallet's fatter :wink:. I'm for sure interested in any and all claims of anything that will improve my game.

Maniac
 
What is CTE?

Instead of all this madness(the graphs and charts). You could say: A ball is 2 1/4in. wide. So because you must use the edge of the CB to cut yet you aim with the middle, measure roughly about 1 1/8 in from the ball while aiming at the pocket. Aim the center of the cue ball at the end of the imaginary 1 1/8 line off the cue ball. and sure enough it will go every time.
This only explains cutting. It does not explain the 90, 45 degree or any other positional rule. It may seem confusing. Please question it, I am confident of this because I use it every day.
 
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I think you have to ask whether the problem is FINDING the center, or HITTING the center. I think those are two different tasks, and they're BOTH necessary for pool; and I think that SEPARATING those, in order to know which one you have a problem with, is a primary route to proper practice.

But what does CTE have to do with that situation?

I know you're not yet familiar with me as a contributor to these boards, but I'm a staunch advocate of good fundamentals. In fact, I adopted the snooker stance long ago in my belief that it offers the purest and most rigid (read: non-"loosey-goosey") foundation to put your stroking arm on "train tracks" to the cue ball.

As for what hitting center has to do with CTE, it has EVERYTHING to do with CTE. It's the concept of AVOIDING center, because "center-ness" has been identified as a known "bug" in the person using CTE (otherwise, they wouldn't be using it).

I have no problem with using ball edges as references for aiming. Ball edges are BUILT-INTO the very foundations of pool: References to "cut shots" can only be metaphors for using the edge of the CB to "cut into" the OB at a particular point. "Thin cuts" refer to "cutting off" a thin portion of the OB with the edge of the CB.

Well, what you described is only one of many aiming techniques -- fractional ball aiming, or "eclipsing." There are obviously others, one of which I'd already mentioned -- true ghostball awareness. When I aim, I'm not eclipsing anything. I'm aiming at the center of something (i.e. ghostball). I'm literally shooting the mole in the face, dead-center on the nose; I'm not trying to cut his ear off.

But the point is not to "base" the discussion on only one aiming technique.

And I agree that it's possible that once people have the idea of "cutting" that they can maybe be at a temporary loss when they confront a straight shot. Personally, a straight shot for me means trying to hit BOTH edges of the OB with both edges of the CB!

Not to argue semantics with you, but visually, you can't do that. You can't "hit BOTH edges of the OB with both edges of the CB." The object ball is smaller than the cue ball, for obvious perspective reasons (the object ball is further away than the cue ball), hence they don't line up. If instead you meant that you "center" the object ball in the distance, between the "fence" (edges) of the cue ball in front of you, that would be more correct.

Still, I don't know what that has to do with CTE, or how CTE can help that situation.

Again, if one can't see the "center" of something (that is, a significant margin of error is somehow introduced one side or the other), they simply can't do it. So rather than trying to find the center of something "visually," they instead ignore the center and focus/reference on the edges instead. Remember I said that they can "see the left edge" and "see the right edge" but everything in-between is "just a bunch of stuff" for which they can't find the center of? (And again, this is with objects on the table -- the cue ball and the object ball. The problem is exacerbated on the ghostball -- something they can't see.) CTE answers this by telling them to ignore "center-ness" and go for the edges instead.

If people can't "see" edges and centers, then I don't know how "systematic commands" to see edges and centers can change things for them.

I'd edited that point -- point #3 -- while you were already replying. See my original post. You glob "centers" with "edges" as if they're the same in this discussion. They are not. The issue is with "seeing" only centers, not the edges. Anyone can see and pinpoint the obvious edges of something; not all can do the same with centers. CTE's name is actually a misnomer, because it leads the reader to believe that "center" is a key part of the technique. It's only key during the pivot -- pivoting back to the center of the cue ball. Now an obvious question is "but wait, didn't you just say that these folks have an issue with seeing 'center'?" That's correct -- and yes, CTE *can* be incorrectly used if the person can't pivot to the center correctly. The issue is distance -- the person can't see the center of something at a distance, but can use the edges to "arrive" at the center. (When I say "center" in the latter half of that sentence, I'm referring to the final ghostball location.)


To me that's just another way of saying that CTE users utilize "feel" just like everyone else. In my mind (what I do to pocket balls), "feel" is just one step down from "ghostball:" I "feel" where the GB is, without actually "seeing" it. Estimating "how much to cut" is equivalent to imagine a ghost ball sitting there "at the cut."

Again, careful with that correlation. You're correlating to only one aiming technique -- fractional aiming / eclipsing.

I agree with others that what CTE players are doing is simply making shots by feel. But I have trouble seeing how that means CTE actually HELPS them. I certainly wonder whether they wouldn't be helped MORE just concentrating on the "feel" that's in fact making the shots for them.

You may be right. Perhaps the marketing arm of CTE wants to obfuscate the fact that there is a describable amount of estimation built into the initial determination of the pivot. I mean, if you put the cue ball on the head spot, and you move the object ball down the center line of the table, all the way to the foot spot (keeping that cue ball on the head spot), you're describing an increasing (decreasing?) amount of pivot to "arrive" at the correct ghostball location to pocket that ball in one of the two bottom corner pockets. No argument there.

Maybe I'm wrong (and maybe YOU'RE wrong): I don't see how "MAKING BELIEVE" that one is using a "system" can enhance one's use of feel (but I can imagine, and have stated before, that mentally TYING stereotypical movements TO feelings could make it easier to call up and repeat the "feel" set ups).

Who's to argue who's correct? Whether I'm right or wrong, or you're right or wrong, the fact remains the same. It's a technique. And it appears to be a successful one, albeit for varying reasons. The varying reasons could be that oft-argumented word "aiming," or CTE could merely be a pre-shot routine that happens to ignore the center of things, and focus on the edges instead. Regardless, folks *are* having success with it.

Right. I also dislike unsupported claims. Which is why I don't like the "systematic" claims of CTE. I'll admit that I don't understand why some non-CTE-advocates want me to mitigate my dislike for CTE claims. I'm really confused by that one.

I honestly don't care what "aiming system" or pre-shot routine one uses. All I care about is that my opponent offers me a good game. And I can tell you this -- I offer a very stiff game for those who match up with me. In the end, that's all that matters. The only thing that gets my hackles up is when someone tries to "change" me with sales pitches, even though I'm not doing anything obviously incorrect. That's when I'll jump in.

Anyway, a lot of great info is coming out in *this* CTE thread that hasn't come out in others. Let's not stifle the spread of good info -- let's keep it civil, ok?

-Sean
 
Authority is good, and useful. But it can't be taken for granted, and it can't be used as an excuse for ceasing your own thinking.

OTOH, my thinking and analysis has been tested by/against some of the ABSOLUTE TOP MINDS IN THE WORLD! Nobel prize winners, and members of the National Academy of Sciences. Who is some...pffft....BILLIARD INSTRUCTOR to tell me I don't know how to consider and analyze a pathetically simple set of concepts?

Are you done God, Oh I meant GMT.
Does this have anything to do with pool? I guess that makes you master
and chief of every profession and sport . Can you tell me how to paint a
car? Do you put your pants on standing on your head. This isn't rocket
science Einstein . Oh and congratulations on your accomplishments .
( I am a polite southern gentleman)
 
Who's to argue who's correct? Whether I'm right or wrong, or you're right or wrong, the fact remains the same. It's a technique. And it appears to be a successful one, albeit for varying reasons. The varying reasons could be that oft-argumented word "aiming," or CTE could merely be a pre-shot routine that happens to ignore the center of things, and focus on the edges instead. Regardless, folks *are* having success with it.

I appreciate your comments and your expertise. It's obvious to me that you devote a lot of THOUGHT to your game (and I have no trouble at all believing you play at a very high level). In fact it's the "thought part" that relates to the issues I raise: CTE (mostly by creating a delusion that it's a systematic aiming system) seems to kill thought, introspection, and analysis of one's game. I think THAT would be one of my main complaints about its use and promotion.

I also take issue with what you say above (although I'm sure you have MUCH more experience than I do observing players who say they use CTE--and their play. Well, I don't have ANY experience with that, as a matter of fact.)

HOW do we know that "folks *are* having success with it" ? An example is John Barton. Patrick Johnson has made the observation (which he admits isn't thorough) that John doesn't really seem to PLAY much better (in fact Patrick says "worse") since learning CTE--yet if you listen to JOHN he will tell you that CTE has made a WORLD of improvement in his game.

Could it be possible that John has mis-estimated the effect of CTE on his game? In medicine, for example, patient reports of their responses to treatment are NOTORIOUSLY unreliable as sources of information about objective responses to treatments.

I'm not sure why some (and you seem to be one) feel so SURE that CTE is a benefit, when analysis of CTE shows that it contains nothing objectively beneficial. To me it seems like quite a BRAVE assertion to claim to find benefit in the absence of beneficial conditions....and it would be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to objectively demonstrate that benefit, in a broad and convincing way.

OTOH, why should anyone object to an analysis of the PRINCIPLES and THEORETICAL basis of CTE? Those, at least, can be analyzed without the inherent problems and possible misinterpretations (mentioned above) in analyzing the OUTCOME of CTE use.

I'm only analyzing what I "know," which in this case is that the fundamental principles of CTE don't include exact and objective information about pocket position relative to the OB--and without that, CTE can't reasonably or fairly be called an aiming system.

Apparently, you (and Patrick Johnson) take issue with my analysis at that level--you don't seem to think it's "important" or "useful."

I say that what it IS is one of the few things that we can say DEFINITIVELY. It's better to find arguments to make that one can SUPPORT, rather than make conjectures (like whether CTE "helps people" or not) that are very DIFFICULT to objectively and substantially support.
 
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Wow Jal. You must have put a lot of work into this! I doubt many people will appreciate the results, but I do.

It is no surprise how difficult it is to create a practical version of CTE that actually applies to a wide range of shots. It is also clear that to use CTE (any version) to pocket a wide range of shots over different distances and cut angles, "adjustment" and "judgment" are required.

CTE might be easy in "practice" for some, but it certainly ain't easy in "theory."

Good job,
Dave
Thank you very much Dr. Dave. For me, much work. For you, a break, relatively speaking. :)

You know, I think we agree on just about everything concerning CTE - I'd better if I want to feel I'm right! But I have to say that I have slightly more empathy with GetMeThere's harder line about it being essentially of zero value as an 'aiming system', per se. IMO, it's ghostball or one of its immediate derivatives, or, as they say, nothing.

Jim
 
Are you done God, Oh I meant GMT.
Does this have anything to do with pool? I guess that makes you master
and chief of every profession and sport . Can you tell me how to paint a
car? Do you put your pants on standing on your head. This isn't rocket
science Einstein . Oh and congratulations on your accomplishments .
( I am a polite southern gentleman)

Sorry. I really don't understand you. Do you actually THINK ABOUT what you write?

You admonish me for DARING to challenge a "pool authority," but if I make the point that maybe a pool authority shouldn't dare to challenge an "analysis authority" you think I'm all "uppity."

Really...try to THINK about what you're saying.

In the end, authority means nothing in this case. The important particulars are easy to grasp, and authority isn't necessary (on any side) to discuss and analyze them. YOU are the one who tried to impress with someone's "authority." I tried to show you that was pointless, or could just as easily go against you as for you.
 
... CTE could merely be a pre-shot routine that happens to ignore the center of things, and focus on the edges instead. ...

Sean, I don't understand your argument that some people migrate to CTE because of difficulties in seeing the center of things. What they don't want to have to try to use is the center of an invisible ghost ball, but CTE uses a center of the cue ball in two ways -- the initial visual sighting from center of CB to edge of OB and then again in pivoting to center of CB. It's not just an edge-related technique.
 
...Not to argue semantics with you, but visually, you can't do that. You can't "hit BOTH edges of the OB with both edges of the CB." The object ball is smaller than the cue ball, for obvious perspective reasons (the object ball is further away than the cue ball), hence they don't line up. If instead you meant that you "center" the object ball in the distance, between the "fence" (edges) of the cue ball in front of you, that would be more correct.

...You may be right. Perhaps the marketing arm of CTE wants to obfuscate the fact that there is a describable amount of estimation built into the initial determination of the pivot. I mean, if you put the cue ball on the head spot, and you move the object ball down the center line of the table, all the way to the foot spot (keeping that cue ball on the head spot), you're describing an increasing (decreasing?) amount of pivot to "arrive" at the correct ghostball location to pocket that ball in one of the two bottom corner pockets. No argument there.
-Sean

Nice post as usual, Sean. I doubt it could've been explained any better than that by mere mortals. :smile:

The only points of contention I see are related in that the pivot doesn't actually vary, but rather is repositioned during the adjustment/alignment of each shot. You mentioned this in your first quoted paragraph, but did not link it to your second train of thought.

LAMas' description of this in his previous posts in this thread and other threads with the mind numbing graphing by JAL corroborate this change in viewing points. Although pertaining to LAMas' system it validates the basic setup principles used by all pivot systems.

Thanks again for the civil, objective explanations of the CB/OB center and edge sighting relationships.

Best,
Mike
 
Authority is good, and useful. But it can't be taken for granted, and it can't be used as an excuse for ceasing your own thinking.

OTOH, my thinking and analysis has been tested by/against some of the ABSOLUTE TOP MINDS IN THE WORLD! Nobel prize winners, and members of the National Academy of Sciences. Who is some...pffft....BILLIARD INSTRUCTOR to tell me I don't know how to consider and analyze a pathetically simple set of concepts?

I work in an educational setting and I have meet a lot a lot of people who were Educated WAY Beyond thier Intelligence!!!!!

"OTOH, my thinking and analysis has been tested by/against some of the ABSOLUTE TOP MINDS IN THE WORLD! Nobel prize winners, and members of the National Academy of Sciences. Who is some...pffft....BILLIARD INSTRUCTOR to tell me I don't know how to consider and analyze a pathetically simple set of concepts"

and that statement is case in point!!!
 
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I agree and well said Sean..
GetMeThere:

Before I go any further, let me point out that I'm a natural ghostballer. I "see" the ghostball plain as day, and often make the analogy that the ghostball "pops up" for me at the correct spot next to the object ball (to make it in the pocket, with throw already calculated in many cases), just like those whack-a-mole games. All I have to do is shoot the mole dead-center in the face, using the best fundamentals I can muster to do so.

I don't use CTE. However, I *do* see the value of CTE, one of the reasons for which you touched on in the bolded paragraph above. Here are my thoughts on the values (if not virtues) of CTE:

1. Many people have problems "finding the center" of something. For example, I'd just about bet my hat that probably 50% (if not more) of the readership on these boards could not do the "lag the cue ball the length of the table and back [kitchen to footrail and back], and have the cue ball return to the cue tip, without moving the cue" exercise, say, 10 out of 10 times. A pretty stiff challenge, I know, but I've seen it all too often. There are several reasons for this, but mostly due to eye-dominance (either known or unknown) playing a factor in the player's perception, the player's stance/head-eye placement over the cue, etc. Regardless what it is, many players can't hit the exact center of the cue ball.

2. Extending this outwards, many players can't see the "middle" of the object ball, either. Here's an experiment: line-up a straight-in shot towards a pocket, and then obscure the pocket from the player (e.g. place something across the table that is opaque, but with just enough room under it for the object ball to travel under). Remember: the cue ball and the object ball are still lined-up dead-straight into the pocket behind the blinder. Ask the player to shoot the cue ball straight into the object ball as if it were a straight-in shot. You may be surprised at the results (I certainly was when I first tried this as a proposition shot to a couple casual players). Many of them won't pocket the ball -- and worse yet, many will probably miss the pocket by a large margin! The reason is simple: those folks need to see the pocket in the background, as a reference point to home in on, because they simply can't see nor use the "middle-ness" of the object ball alone. To them, there's the left edge of the object ball, and the right edge of the object ball, and some "stuff" in-between. They can't find the middle of that "stuff."

3. You can see how the problem is exacerbated when the shooter is having problems finding the middle of objects they *can* physically see on the table, much less a ghostball -- something they have to visualize / can't physically see. Combine the "can't find the center of the cue ball" with the "can't find the center of the object ball" anomalies with the obvious problems in doing the same for a non-existent object (ghostball), and you can see where a system like CTE, that uses easily-locatable/-focusable (if that's a word?) fixed points on the cue ball and object ball, comes into the fray.

These folks find that being able to see and focus on the edges of the balls, and then pivoting a determined amount to point the cue somewhere into that "stuff," is able to get them on line for the shot. There's nothing wrong with that technique.

IMHO, it's just a way of end-running the "visualize the ghostball" thing, because they aren't using a ghostball whatsoever. They bypass the ghostball completely. Do pivot-aiming techniques, when they're properly conducted (either intentionally, or "accidentally" as you like to say, GetMeThere), ultimately get the shooter to point the cue ball at the proper ghostball location prior to pulling the trigger? It sure does. Does the pocket come into play for the shot? You betcha -- although it's only a cursory (and much glossed-over) preliminary step before beginning the CTE process. That's where the thick/thin/thinner aspect comes into play -- that decision as to whether the shot is a "thick," "thin," or "thinner" shot USES THE POCKET IN THE BACKGROUND to make that initial/cursory decision. After that, the pocket is discarded/ignored for the entire rest of the CTE process.

And yes, I have played with CTE as part of my explorations of the technique. Do I make balls with it? Yes, I do. Am I comfortable with it? So-so -- I do find it extremely hard to ignore that ghostball "mole" that automatically and naturally (for me) pops-up in the correct spot. It's difficult to just throw that information away. Am I more comfortable with ghostball and make balls more consistently and accurately than I do with CTE? Yes, I do -- but CTE advocates will quickly point out that I haven't committed to muscle memory (and haven't completely drowned out / killed-off the ghostball "mole") the CTE methodology to be second nature. Whether that's the "correct" method for me remains to be seen, but one thing is for sure -- it's my decision to make, not any one of the CTE advocates. That's why -- and the only reason -- you'll see me jump into CTE threads, and that is to kill or quash the insane sales pitches (e.g. "Sean, if you'll just commit yourself to CTE, you'll go up 'x' number of balls in your ability!" Grrrr!! :mad: )

Anyway, I hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
Sean, I don't understand your argument that some people migrate to CTE because of difficulties in seeing the center of things. What they don't want to have to try to use is the center of an invisible ghost ball, but CTE uses a center of the cue ball in two ways -- the initial visual sighting from center of CB to edge of OB and then again in pivoting to center of CB. It's not just an edge-related technique.

AtLarge:

Please read my post again. One of the problems with this thread, is that people are quick to reply and attack (that old "shoot from the hip" wild-wild-west thing), but not properly digest what was just read. You appear to take issue with the one point about not being able to see "center-ness" correctly, and extended it to the cue ball. I clearly said the issue is distance -- it's much more difficult to find the center of something at a distance (especially a non-existent object like the ghostball), than of something physical that is right in front of you (i.e. the cue ball). (Albeit, as I said, many folks have problems even with *that*. Remember my comment/dare that probably 50% of this forum's readership can't do the "lag the cue ball up and down the length of the table, returning to rest at the cue tip" exercise 10 out of 10 times? And yes, I know that could be either a "center-ness perception" issue, or it could also be a fundamentals/cue-delivery issue. I'd intentionally left-out the fundamentals stuff [I know, very unusual for me] for the purposes of focusing on the "aiming" part of this thread.)

And actually, I used the "not being able to see true 'center-ness' on physical objects" thing as a prelude to the ghostball. Sort of, "if that cue ball lag up-and-down the table back to the cue tip" exercise is an issue, can you imagine that person's issue with trying to perceive the center of a distant non-existent ghostball is going to be like?

Anyway, I agree that finding the center of the cue ball is much easier than finding the center of a distant object (e.g. the object ball), and even worse for a non-existent object (ghostball), and that's the reason why folks migrate or adopt CTE.

-Sean
 
Authority is good, and useful. But it can't be taken for granted, and it can't be used as an excuse for ceasing your own thinking.

OTOH, my thinking and analysis has been tested by/against some of the ABSOLUTE TOP MINDS IN THE WORLD! Nobel prize winners, and members of the National Academy of Sciences. Who is some...pffft....BILLIARD INSTRUCTOR to tell me I don't know how to consider and analyze a pathetically simple set of concepts?

Dear Mr. Thinking and Analysis,

I'm still waiting for your phone call.

:rolleyes:
 
AtLarge:

Please read my post again. One of the problems with this thread, is that people are quick to reply and attack (that old "shoot from the hip" wild-wild-west thing), but not properly digest what was just read. You appear to take issue with the one point about not being able to see "center-ness" correctly, and extended it to the cue ball. I clearly said the issue is distance ...

Sean, I was neither attacking nor shooting from the hip. I read and thought about everything you said. And what I concluded was that you might not have a valid point about the reason some people use CTE.

Here are a few of your statements about "center" and CTE:
- As for what hitting center has to do with CTE, it has EVERYTHING to do with CTE. It's the concept of AVOIDING center, because "center-ness" has been identified as a known "bug" in the person using CTE (otherwise, they wouldn't be using it).

- Again, if one can't see the "center" of something (that is, a significant margin of error is somehow introduced one side or the other), they simply can't do it. So rather than trying to find the center of something "visually," they instead ignore the center and focus/reference on the edges instead. Remember I said that they can "see the left edge" and "see the right edge" but everything in-between is "just a bunch of stuff" for which they can't find the center of? (And again, this is with objects on the table -- the cue ball and the object ball.

- CTE's name is actually a misnomer, because it leads the reader to believe that "center" is a key part of the technique. It's only key during the pivot -- pivoting back to the center of the cue ball.​

I think a fair reading of those three statements would lead one to think that you might possibly be overlooking the fact that the first step in CTE is to sight from the center of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball.

A reason many people have cited for using CTE is that it relies on real, observable things like centers and edges of existing balls rather than on hard-to-observe things like a ghost ball; or the top, center, or base of a ghost ball; or a contact point on the OB.
 
Dear Mr. Thinking and Analysis,

I'm still waiting for your phone call.

:rolleyes:

I don't really know what you're talking about. I recall linking to a post of yours in another thread, as an example of someone who thought CTE was simple and easy--to contrast with (I think John Barton's) claim that it WASN'T simple.

Later on you posted here and seemed to be angry, and talked about phone calls. I couldn't really be bothered by reading your entire post.

What is your complaint? What do you want?
 
Jal,

Thanks for the charts. I need some concurrence of what I am looking at.
You're welcome Lamas. Sorry I didn't add more description.

The numbers in inches on the left margine are just where you put the 8", 18", 36" and 72" examples that start at zero degree - which has no aparallel shift.
The numbers on the left margin are the pivot distances from the tip. The fact that the curves show some pivot distance even at a zero degree cut angle, is just an artifact of the math. If you had, for instance, a cut angle of .001 degree, the middle (black) curve of each group of five indicates the correct pivot distance for that very small cut angle. As a general example of reading the curves, if the proper cut angle in order to make a shot is 30 degrees, with a CB-OB separation of 18", the pivot distance should be just about 6.6" from the tip. With a CB-OB separation of 36", it would be about 9.2". To those pivot distances, you'd have to subtract whatever gap you left between the cueball and tip while lining up, in order to avoid a foul. I'll make a diagram of exactly what I mean by "from the tip", if necessary. The math initially figures the pivot distance from a line extending through the center of the cueball and perpendicular to the stick's axis after the lateral shift. In the graphs, I subtracted one ball radius (1.125") from that and plotted that value.

As the cut angle goes from 0 (degrees) to 90 degrees, the shift moves and increases as it follows the contact point (CP).

At 8", The shift on the chart rises from ~3" on the left (0d) to ~4" on the right (90d) - the delta being ~1" is close to 1/2 of the OB ball diameter at that distance of 8".

The same thing happens at 18" which results in a delta of ~.75" and at 36" = a delta of ~.50"

Finally at 72 ", the delta is ~.25".
Absolutely. There's visibley more curve to the one representing the 8" CB-OB separation versus, say, the 72" separation.

This would validate that the "aparallel" shift is smaller as the CB to OB distance increases. If interpret that part of the chart correctly.
That's the way I read it.

I don't understand the 2 degree (blue) and 5 degree (red) OB Direction Margin and why the slope is so severe at zero degrees etc..
The two surrounding sets of curves show how a deviation from the correct pivot distance would result in a corresponding deviation or error of 2 or 5 degrees in the OB's direction. For instance, with the 30 degree cut angle at the 18" CB-OB separation, if instead of pivoting at the correct 6.6", the inner two bluish lines adjacent to the middle curve show that if you pivoted at either 5.8" or 7.4", the OB's direction would be off by 2 degrees. Similarly, the outer reddish lines show a 5 degree error in its direction when pivoting at 5.1" and 9.1". I'm mentioning colors, but realize they're not showing up too well after being jpeged. And, of course, I ignored throw, or took the cut angle as already accounting for it (though throw will vary slightly with even a small change in cut angle, so the deviation in the OB's direction cannot be considered absolutely exact).

The error in the OB's direction is calculated as an error in the impact angle, which is virtually the same, numerically speaking, as the error in the cut angle. This is not so true when the balls are very close to each other, i.e., a few inches apart. I used the impact angle deviation to try and be as precise as possible, which is the angle of the OB's direction measured relative to the line of centers between CB and OB. It's, in a sense, more of an absolute direction relative to the table rails/pocket.

As to why the slopes are so severe at very small cut angles, well, the short answer is that's what the math indicates. That's a non-answer, of course, and it'll require a little more quiet time to interpret. Certainly, it's related to the generally larger margin of errors associated with modest cut angles. But as to exactly why so much, I really can't say at the moment.

I hope that clears up the meaning of the curves. If not, feel free. I may make some supporting diagrams in the near future if you feel some further clarification is needed, or the technique continues to be explored by you (us?).

Jim
 
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Sean, I was neither attacking nor shooting from the hip. I read and thought about everything you said. And what I concluded was that you might not have a valid point about the reason some people use CTE.

Here are a few of your statements about "center" and CTE:
- As for what hitting center has to do with CTE, it has EVERYTHING to do with CTE. It's the concept of AVOIDING center, because "center-ness" has been identified as a known "bug" in the person using CTE (otherwise, they wouldn't be using it).

- Again, if one can't see the "center" of something (that is, a significant margin of error is somehow introduced one side or the other), they simply can't do it. So rather than trying to find the center of something "visually," they instead ignore the center and focus/reference on the edges instead. Remember I said that they can "see the left edge" and "see the right edge" but everything in-between is "just a bunch of stuff" for which they can't find the center of? (And again, this is with objects on the table -- the cue ball and the object ball.

- CTE's name is actually a misnomer, because it leads the reader to believe that "center" is a key part of the technique. It's only key during the pivot -- pivoting back to the center of the cue ball.​

I think a fair reading of those three statements would lead one to think that you might possibly be overlooking the fact that the first step in CTE is to sight from the center of the cue ball to the edge of the object ball.

A reason many people have cited for using CTE is that it relies on real, observable things like centers and edges of existing balls rather than on hard-to-observe things like a ghost ball; or the top, center, or base of a ghost ball; or a contact point on the OB.

AtLarge:

Although your point is well-received, I can assure you I didn't overlook that aspect (bolded above). FYI, I'm still at work waiting for a bunch of configuration changes I made to some Cisco enterprise network switches to take effect (reboots en-masse) so I'm posting very quickly to AZB in the meantime, in-between switch reboots. The fingers are-a-flying, trust me.

Perhaps I should've made it clear that I *do* understand the CTE process by reciting the steps, but I felt it wasn't necessary in light of the other information I shared. I glossed-over that aspect (again, bolded above), and I apologize.

The ultimate point that I tried to build-up to, was trying to sight "center-ness" on the ghostball. I used not being able to sight/hit the center of the cue ball consistently to begin, then moved into not being able to shoot a straight-in shot using just the cue ball and the object ball (pocket obscured) as the next step, and then built onto that with the ghostball. I hope that at least was clear.

Anyway, do trust that I do understand the steps in CTE, and I've explored it, and continue to explore it, but not in the heat of battle, like a match-up or tournament. Ghostball rules the roost for me there.

Looks like my last switch reboot just completed. I can now go home -- yippee!

Thanks for pointing out something that could be misconstrued.

-Sean
 
Later on you posted here and seemed to be angry, and talked about phone calls. I couldn't really be bothered by reading your entire post.

What is your complaint? What do you want?

I have no complaint. I just wanted to confront you about the insinuations that you made about me and I wanted to do it directly. Obviously you're not up for it - so troll away.
 
I have no complaint. I just wanted to confront you about the insinuations that you made about me and I wanted to do it directly. Obviously you're not up for it - so troll away.

What you seem to misunderstand is that I DIDN'T make "insinuations" about you. I used you as an EXAMPLE of someone who said that CTE was "easy."

Let's see. I'll see if I can find the relevant discussion (what a pain).
 
what you seem to misunderstand is that i didn't make "insinuations" about you. I used you as an example of someone who said that cte was "easy."

let's see. I'll see if i can find the relevant discussion (what a pain).


***** plonk *****
 
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