why did jose hit the 9 this way?

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Then the next question is - can the tip's speed and direction with a swoop stroke be duplicated using a straight stroke?

The answer is obviously yes - so why would you ever swoop?

pj
chgo

Go for it! Turn your cue slightly diagonal, now backstroke with the whole cue held diagonally in both hands, to preserve the angle, now come forward, getting the english you like. Give it a go! (I'm guessing you didn't and stroked with your mind, not testing the technique at a table.)

The problem, of course, is you are now punching into the globe, knocking it over, instead of slapping it obliquely, "riding the circumference" as was stated above--if you can execute the stroke you are requesting above, that is, turn the cue diagonal and bring the whole works back and through, while angled, instead of stroking in the direction the cue tip points!

Put another way, I'm comfortable shooting pivot (a diagonal stroke hand movement) or carabao (forward with a bit of deviation) but not brooming a diagonal cue stick with precision.

Or put another way, you're right, and many of the pros in the world are wrong--who have been backhanding for a century or so. I'll say that at the risk of invoking an ad populum fallacy.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Go for it! Turn your cue slightly diagonal, now backstroke with the whole cue held diagonally in both hands, to preserve the angle, now come forward, getting the english you like.
This nonsense demonstrates that you don't know what I've said or how unrealistic your ideas are.

There are too many misconceptions in the rest of your post to bother responding. I hope nobody's paying you for this terrible advice.

pj
chgo
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
This nonsense demonstrates that you don't know what I've said or how unrealistic your ideas are.

There are too many misconceptions in the rest of your post to bother responding. I hope nobody's paying you for this terrible advice.

pj
chgo

What happened to "good people discussing things in the marketplace of ideas"? You didn't get my sarcasm:

"Turn your cue slightly diagonal, now backstroke with the whole cue held diagonally in both hands, to preserve the angle, now come forward, getting the english you like."
This cannot be done without ruining the fixed bridge hand on the table--I was demonstrating you are claiming to replace a simple swoop stroke that many pros use, for a very difficult stroke you have imagined--but clearly not yet attempted.

A great many pros use backhand/swoop for sidespin--using a long bridge and follow through, for example, the cue travels 20-plus inches from the bridge hand through follow through, but only a tip or two to the side, less than an inch--the net equivalent effect is that of a cue turned diagonal (pivot english) thrusting forward.

Engage with the material and tell me per physics and logic why you think I'm wrong. I don't mind learning from constructive criticism. You can at the same time tell me why hundreds of top players are using wrong techniques at the table--or not--but you will cease from insulting the good taste and high intelligence of my many students.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
You didn't get my sarcasm
No, you didn't get what "duplicate the tip's swoop stroke speed and direction with a straight stroke" means. It simply means angle your cue before stroking at the same angle the swooped tip is moving when it hits the CB and then stroke straight along the cue's axis as usual to hit the same CB spot at the same angle - you know, like squirt correction is normally done with a straight stroke.

This level of basic misunderstanding makes me wonder if we'll ever get past your misconceptions to have a chance at realistic conversation.

pj
chgo
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
No, you didn't get what "duplicate the tip's swoop stroke speed and direction with a straight stroke" means. It simply means angle your cue before stroking at the same angle the swooped tip is moving when it hits the CB and then stroke straight along the cue's axis as usual to hit the same CB spot at the same angle - you know, like squirt correction is normally done with a straight stroke.

This level of basic misunderstanding makes me wonder if we'll ever get past your misconceptions to have a chance at realistic conversation.

pj
chgo

A swoop is an umbrella handle shaped stroke or candy cane shaped stroke (begin along center cue ball line, deviate near impact) so why should a straight stroke/straight line motion, along a different approach and follow through line, yield "the same effect"?

It's a fine difference, but if you visualize each stroke in full motion (your fourth stroke, not pivoted, parallel or swooped, but turned to offset then stroked straight back and through as you've described) and also the swoop stroke, you may see how the swoop compresses the tip through impact rather neatly to "ride the circumference" as aptly described above, and the offset cue doesn't do as well but difflects/squirts more--they are different angles of incidence. The string around the yo-yo pulls along a curve to really spin that yo-yo better than a straight strike can. You are also a strong player, weaker players aren't too keen on stroking the offset cue stick, especially at more than a tip of sidespin. I've demonstrated a swoop before to clinic groups and they all pick it up in just a few tries or even the first try, finding more confidence on those rare shots that need much english.

If the cb is far from the ob, you can see a good backhand shot maintain a lot of sidespin on the cue ball! That's one reason the pros use it. Also, if you want to use it at the tables and experiment, you may grow to like the stroke more if you think of pronating or supinating the wrist from the elbow, that is, rotating the stroke hand, rather than pulling the cue laterally for the same sideways deviation during the swoop move.

PS. As I think about it, I've avoided teaching offset for a long time, but some like it, I will revise my diagram tomorrow sometime. Thanks and sorry for the confusion.
 
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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree, of course. Only different directions of motion can provide different cue ball actions, however, the swoop stroke yields a different direction of motion than the pivot stroke or "parallel" false english stroke (see my illustration below).

You've said you've had trouble executing a swoop, don't think of it as a diagonal stroke through Point X, rather, think of it as more of setting the whole cue to broom forward, while it has been turned a tiny increment diagonally through the bridge hand. Put another way, I think/feel like the backhand english stroke is a straight stroke.

Swooping efficiently combines the better parts of parallel and pivot technique.

View attachment 524298

I'm looking at the diagram and I'm sorry but the 2 CB's to the right are identical as to the angle of the shaft and tip contact point on the CB. You're saying they're different somehow???
And what about the one farthest to the right, why is the follow thru coming out way to the left whereas the other 2 go straight thru. Is that possibly accomplished by using a figure 8 stroke? I've heard of that stroke but I've never actually seen anyone do it.
Another thing I'm curious about is why you say parallel english is false english. What's the deal with that?

Back/front, parallel, swooping or whatever; the type and/or amount of english is governed by tip contact point, levelness of cue and quality of delivery into the CB.

One thing I'll say about swooping is that there are a lot of people who do it because they grew up with it and are comfortable with it.
However, I would not recommend it for 2 specific reasons.
One is that it has a tendency to promote wrist twisting which most would agree is bad.
Another is that, once mastered, it works fine (most of the time) as long as you're playing a lot and are in good stroke. But if you're not playing much you'll have difficulty by getting either too much or not enough english and miss shots because of that.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...the swoop compresses the tip through impact rather neatly to "ride the circumference" as aptly described above, and the offset cue doesn't do as well but difflects/squirts more--they are different angles of incidence.
This is an understandable (and not uncommon) misperception, but not one an instructor should have or teach.

Since a straight stroke can be aimed at whatever angle the shooter desires, there's no reason for there to be different angles of incidence. And, as you've already agreed, if the tips strike the CB on the same spot at the same angle and speed there can be no difference in effect.

And, by the way, this isn't hard to test - do this simple spin test stroking both ways and see if one or the other produces more spin effect:

1. Use a striped ball as your "CB" with the stripe vertical and facing you.

2. Hit the ball on the edge of the stripe (maximum side spin), aiming it straight across the table (diamond to diamond) - put a target, like a piece of chalk, on the far rail to easily see if you're hitting straight across.

3. Hit it just hard enough to rebound to the near rail. Mark the spot it hits on the near rail.

4. Check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you hit right on the edge of the stripe.

5. Don't count any shot if (1) you didn't hit the far rail target, (2) the chalk mark isn't exactly on the edge of the stripe, or (3) the speed is different.


pj
chgo

P.S. I predict one outcome will be a higher percentage of "legal" shots (#5) with straight strokes.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Who specifically?

On a random basis, look at ten YouTube pros in competition, serious play, not trick shots. See who cues and takes practice strokes along the vertical axis before the cue ball action exhibits english. How are they getting this english?

That style is easy to see--and we both know pros will cue then strike elsewhere along the vertical axis for top/bottom spin, let alone english--but to avoid arguing about hard-to-see minutiae, the last two people I discussed this with in person were Dom Esposito (The Drill Instructor) and Tom Kennedy. They both can describe, even with a pre-offset cue as PJ describes, working not for a purely straight stroke but a curvy backstroke and forward stroke move, that is, at the end of the final backstroke they have returned to center cue ball aim, than reach out to "flick" english coming forward.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
This is an understandable (and not uncommon) misperception, but not one an instructor should have or teach.

Since a straight stroke can be aimed at whatever angle the shooter desires, there's no reason for there to be different angles of incidence. And, as you've already agreed, if the tips strike the CB on the same spot at the same angle and speed there can be no difference in effect.

And, by the way, this isn't hard to test - do this simple spin test stroking both ways and see if one or the other produces more spin effect:

1. Use a striped ball as your "CB" with the stripe vertical and facing you.

2. Hit the ball on the edge of the stripe (maximum side spin), aiming it straight across the table (diamond to diamond) - put a target, like a piece of chalk, on the far rail to easily see if you're hitting straight across.

3. Hit it just hard enough to rebound to the near rail. Mark the spot it hits on the near rail.

4. Check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you hit right on the edge of the stripe.

5. Don't count any shot if (1) you didn't hit the far rail target, (2) the chalk mark isn't exactly on the edge of the stripe, or (3) the speed is different.


pj
chgo

P.S. I predict one outcome will be a higher percentage of "legal" shots (#5) with straight strokes.

I agree with you 100% regarding the efficacy, reliability and dependability of straight strokes.

However, aiming center cue ball than applying english only with the final forward stroke is one of a number of pool strokes where the stroke hand can describe a curve in space, not a linear motion. Aiming center ball, then backstroking along that ccb line, than forward stroking and sometime during the forward stroke moving off line, provides a curved arc into and through impact.

I'm not trying to break your chops--a lot of backhand english is a rare shot to take--we might as well argue vertical massé technique, but a few years ago I got frustrated reading "every pool stroke is a straight stroke" in multiple books and articles online.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I'm looking at the diagram and I'm sorry but the 2 CB's to the right are identical as to the angle of the shaft and tip contact point on the CB. You're saying they're different somehow???
And what about the one farthest to the right, why is the follow thru coming out way to the left whereas the other 2 go straight thru. Is that possibly accomplished by using a figure 8 stroke? I've heard of that stroke but I've never actually seen anyone do it.
Another thing I'm curious about is why you say parallel english is false english. What's the deal with that?

Back/front, parallel, swooping or whatever; the type and/or amount of english is governed by tip contact point, levelness of cue and quality of delivery into the CB.

One thing I'll say about swooping is that there are a lot of people who do it because they grew up with it and are comfortable with it.
However, I would not recommend it for 2 specific reasons.
One is that it has a tendency to promote wrist twisting which most would agree is bad.
Another is that, once mastered, it works fine (most of the time) as long as you're playing a lot and are in good stroke. But if you're not playing much you'll have difficulty by getting either too much or not enough english and miss shots because of that.

Look at the arrows of motion in the right diagram. They go straight ahead, not pointed in the direction the cue stick is aligned. PJ does this motion as a preset offset. That is, aim with english, so that cue is very slightly diagonal along its length, 57" long but a tip or however much to the side, now ignore the diagonal and stroke back and forth.

A little flick of wrist twist can do the same thing, although PJ is describing a straight stroke and I'm describing a curve, the diagram reflects this fact of a diagonal cue coming straight or nearly so through impact--I will redo the diagram today.

Now I agree with you regarding the use of the shot. But when you have an ob close to the pocket and a cb nearby the ob, and want to really work that english without the offset cue near the miscue point...
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here's the key takeaway from this thread -- they played races to 5 in the group stage of the WPA World Championship in 2004. :eek:
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Why don't you just answer the question by giving a few pros that are the best examples of swooping strokes?

Respectfully, sir, I've mentioned Dom Esposito and Tom Kennedy in my note above.

Efren Reyes somewhat popularized the style, called "carabao" english as a carabao is a Filipino water buffalo--as in buffalo leather cue tip material. I can't remember if AZ readers recognize that Ralph Greenleaf used a swoop...
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... I've mentioned Dom Esposito and Tom Kennedy in my note above.

Efren Reyes somewhat popularized the style, called "carabao" english as a carabao is a Filipino water buffalo--as in buffalo leather cue tip material. I can't remember if AZ readers recognize that Ralph Greenleaf used a swoop...
So, nobody in the top 50 in the world?

Further, while Greenleaf did a fair amount of side-to-side fiddling on his warmups, the side spin shots I've seen in old newsreels on YouTube are pretty straight. Is there some video that shows otherwise?

Also, maybe Efren did something else in the last millennium but lately he seems to address the cue ball where he intends to hit it and comes straight through for side spin shots. Do you have an example video of him doing a swoop on the power stroke?
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Look at the arrows of motion in the right diagram. They go straight ahead, not pointed in the direction the cue stick is aligned. PJ does this motion as a preset offset. That is, aim with english, so that cue is very slightly diagonal along its length, 57" long but a tip or however much to the side, now ignore the diagonal and stroke back and forth.

A little flick of wrist twist can do the same thing, although PJ is describing a straight stroke and I'm describing a curve, the diagram reflects this fact of a diagonal cue coming straight or nearly so through impact--I will redo the diagram today.

Now I agree with you regarding the use of the shot. But when you have an ob close to the pocket and a cb nearby the ob, and want to really work that english without the offset cue near the miscue point...

First of all I'm well aware of what a swoop stroke is, I've been doing it for 50+ years.
Now you're saying that you agree with me regarding the use of the shot. You continue by saying well, if the balls close to the pocket, etc. etc. then it's ok to use that technique because you can get more juice while decreasing your miscue frequency.
That's ridiculous. If anything, you are more likely to miscue because introducing more variables means execution and especially timing are more likely to break down.
As for getting more juice, well, that's another highly questionable statement
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
So, nobody in the top 50 in the world?

Further, while Greenleaf did a fair amount of side-to-side fiddling on his warmups, the side spin shots I've seen in old newsreels on YouTube are pretty straight. Is there some video that shows otherwise?

Also, maybe Efren did something else in the last millennium but lately he seems to address the cue ball where he intends to hit it and comes straight through for side spin shots. Do you have an example video of him doing a swoop on the power stroke?

I would emphasize it's sometimes called carabao because of its prevalence among legendary Filipino players, and how they revived the knowledge of the technique via demonstration as they rose to the top ranks in the sport.

You and I have seen countless pros, including top 50 players, follow through on strokes with their cue obviously pointed away from the shot line, to a much greater degree than a straight stroke would take them with pivot english or offset english.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
First of all I'm well aware of what a swoop stroke is, I've been doing it for 50+ years.
Now you're saying that you agree with me regarding the use of the shot. You continue by saying well, if the balls close to the pocket, etc. etc. then it's ok to use that technique because you can get more juice while decreasing your miscue frequency.
That's ridiculous. If anything, you are more likely to miscue because introducing more variables means execution and especially timing are more likely to break down.
As for getting more juice, well, that's another highly questionable statement

If you don't swoop all the time because it introduces variables, when do you swoop? I'm open for discussion.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Actually it's not questionable at all - it's just wrong.

And shouldn't be promoted by an "instructor".

pj
chgo

A different angle of attack can provide less or more spin, we've already agreed, but how about if swooping makes life sweet? Does every player and every pro have to approach the game the same, like automatons?

I have students in their 50's and 60's, even their 70's and 80's, who have struggled lifelong to hit a shot with a tip of english and pocket the ball with shape! Their whole life--you can play very well PJ--and understand our sport immensely, you have much to contribute--now add some empathy for weaker students to your large skill sets.

I avoid teaching english in lessons for the same reasons others do. But if someone at a paid lesson or free clinic says they are struggling hard to use english, and I take a minute or two to show them a technique new to them, which could be swoop instead of offset, or pivot instead of parallel, and they start having fun with english, they high five me or give me a hug or a hearty handshake.

We've all had that moment teaching someone, so why is everyone here concerned so much about every other instructor's students?

Swooping is (obviously, per this thread) not for everyone. But why is everyone so concerned if someone else does it and it ups their game?

I appreciate your zeal that pool is taught correctly. A part of teaching correctly is recognizing different strokes literally are for different folks.
 
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