why did they change the rules

B

Bud Fox

Banned
Hi everybody,I'm a new member to this forum and I signed up because there looks to be a lot of pool players that can help me answer my question.I've been watching and reading for a while,so I'll try not to have run-on sentences.
I play in a pool league that has been around for quite a while.The handicap system they always used to use was pretty accurate.MAybe there were 2 or 3 people that played better than the handicap system would allow,so a point or two would be added to thier personal handicap.
So this other guy that plays in tournaments puts a team together and his team does really well,they win the playoffs and get to go to the show.When we played his team it came down to the last game,but they beat us.My captain told us it was ok,we were in it all the way,they played solid.So did we,so we all agree that the handicap system worked becuase it got to the last game.It wasn't a blowout.We thought the handicap system was pretty fair.
Before we played this team,the league director told my captain to kick the blank out of them cause he didn't like any of those guys.The director also plays on a team and his team got spanked by the tournament guy's team.In regular season on any given night any team has been able to beat another.Most nights it does come down to the last game to decide the night.
So this season the league director tries a new handicap system because she thinks that the old one wasn't fair enough.A tried and true system that has proven itself over and over again now isn't good enough?And they changed some of the rules once the season started too,when the tournament guy's team was lower in the ranks.It almost seems like she wanted to change the system to purposely keep that team from winning.
When we play the tournament guy's team, we go toe to toe with them,have a good time,and sometimes we win,sometimes we lose.He picked a bunch of solid shooters that when our team is on,we can beat them.When they are on,they are ON.There's no sandbagging,when a player from either team loses it's usually becuase they got out of position,not anyone dogging a shot.
There was a team a few years before in our league that dominated and won like 8 out of 10 years.Nobody wanted to change the handicap system then.So why now?
 
Welcome

You seem like a very fair and honest person.
With a biased LO the whole thing might fall apart...
...it's time a bunch of you players had a talk with her.:slap:
 
Changed Ours Several Years Ago

We play a BCAPL 8 Ball league that played on the 10 ball system. You received a point for every ball made and 3 points for the 8 ball. 5 player team and you played everyone once for a total of 25 games.

We don't have end of session tournaments or playoffs. If you have the best record at the end...that's it. You get the trophy and the 1st place cash.

Several years ago they switched to a 8 point system. 1 point for every ball. The reasoning (Which I agree with) was that our team was winning every session. There were times under the old system where we gave up a 8 or 9 point handicap to our opponents. Just winning 10-7 erased the handicap after 3 games. By switching it to a 8 point system, you can give the other team a 6 point handicap, win every game 8-7 and wind up losing the round.

At first we all *****ed about it, but after a while it became our new challenge. Now you really have to bear down and whip a couple of people if you want to win the round.
 
A bunch of us tried to do that,pt109.The league directors didn't want to hear anything to do about it.The sister is the league director and the brother does a lot of the paperwork part of it.The brother said he'd talk to his sister about it but we never officially heard anything back.Just word of mouth that they were still happy with the new system.
What bothers me and some of the other guys in the league is that they changed things once play started.The tournaments guy's team was lower in the standings when they made changes,so it almost seemed like someone said "they're down there lets keep them down there".
But one of the changes eliminated our team from competing for the trip to the show.So we hope the tournament guy's team wins again.They are all nice people,they shoot well and they gel pretty good too.A lot of players in this league kind of seem like prima donnas,but these guys are down to earth.
What I like about thier team is that they are kind of like us.If there is going to be a close hit,they will ask if someone wants to watch the hit.A lot of other players will just hit it hard and call it good.
Any ideas anyone has would be appreciaited.
 
Hi ne14tennis.Thanks for your answer.That's how we score in our league too.The 8 is worth 3 points.BUt last year was the first time the tournament guy's team played.They won once, and the league directors want to change the system.Just seems silly to me.
The part that really steams us is that things were changed AFTER the season started.A lot of people signed up for the chance to go to the show,and the director and like three people decided that half the field would do playoffs,not the whole field.It just feels like they were trying to keep these guys down.
All the guys on my team are for a fair handicap system.Honestly,we thought the old system was pretty fair.When we played the tournament guy's team with the old system it came down to the last game.It wasn't a blowout.
We play to win.There are teams that get to playoffs and cant seem to play well under pressure.It's like they second guess themselves.Our captain says he trusts us at the table.He knows we want to win.There are some teams that they give a guy a really hard time if he misses.Some guys even tell thier teammate what he did wrong even when he wins!That's ridiculous!
 
10 to 8

pt109 said:
You seem like a very fair and honest person.
With a biased LO the whole thing might fall apart...
...it's time a bunch of you players had a talk with her.:slap:
Click to expand...

Welcome Bud. Same thing happened in Okla. Playing 10 for the win forever in a handicap system we were told was as close to perfect as could ever be! All of a sudden it wasn't PERFECT anymore?!?! LO says shouldn't matter, nothing will change. Well if it doesn't matter then why change? If it ain't broke don't fix it! He finally says it will help the weaker teams. I'm fine with that but just throw them a bone. 10 teams in session, bottom 5 teams get an extra 5 points spotted or whatever. I just think a one point swing is not enough reward for winning. Every league needs a board of governors to represent the players. Just like stewards in a union. Then LO can't just make up stuff on the go. Changing in the middle of a session is insane! There is power in numbers and teams must challenge the LO. Pulling teams will hit his pocketbook. It's your league not his!
 
Thats what the league director said.It will help the weaker teams.That's ok,and the more teams that stay in the league the better in the long run.Originaly,supposedly it was changed to get more teams to switch leagues.
But if they start changing the rules midseason then no one will want to play anymore.It's like changing the menu price after you order before you pay.I'd wouldn't go to that restaurant again.And when they made the changes,it was only like 4 or 5 people including the league director.THey never bothered to ask the other teams,they just changed it and the director told everyone this was the way it was going to be.
Like you said,Mr.Wiggles.If it ain't broke why fix it?Why change if it doesn't matter?
 
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ne14tennis said:
We play a BCAPL 8 Ball league that played on the 10 ball system. You received a point for every ball made and 3 points for the 8 ball. 5 player team and you played everyone once for a total of 25 games.

We don't have end of session tournaments or playoffs. If you have the best record at the end...that's it. You get the trophy and the 1st place cash.

Several years ago they switched to a 8 point system. 1 point for every ball. The reasoning (Which I agree with) was that our team was winning every session. There were times under the old system where we gave up a 8 or 9 point handicap to our opponents. Just winning 10-7 erased the handicap after 3 games. By switching it to a 8 point system, you can give the other team a 6 point handicap, win every game 8-7 and wind up losing the round.

At first we all *****ed about it, but after a while it became our new challenge. Now you really have to bear down and whip a couple of people if you want to win the round.
Click to expand...

I have a question about this. If winning is now worth only 8 points then the handicaps of everyone on your team will go down, wouldn't you now be giving away fewer points since the guys on your team win most games. I mean, instead of you guys being mostly 8's and 9's you are probably now 6's and 7's. So has the net effect really changed much? It doesn't sound very fair if you guys must still play to your handicaps figured under the old system but now only get 8 points for the win, especially if you are giving up bonus points for over 40.
 
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The short answer is they changed the rules, because they can. And they obviously wanted to, to impact certain players in their league in a fashion they wanted.

Unfortunately the only recourse you have is to not play, and reduce their income by that amount. Sadly, that probably won't get their attention unless you get a large amount of teams to follow your lead. And you all lose that way, since you're not playing with folks you obviously enjoy playing with any longer.

So yes, they changed the rules because they can.

Sad way to run an operation.
 
Let's use this scenario

DogsPlayingPool said:
I have a question about this. If winning is now worth only 8 points then the handicaps of everyone on your team will go down, wouldn't you now be giving away fewer points since the guys on your team win most games. I mean, instead of you guys being mostly 8's and 9's you are probably now 6's and 7's. So has the net effect really changed much? It doesn't sound very fair if you guys must still play to your handicaps figured under the old system but now only get 8 points for the win, especially if you are giving up bonus points for over 40.
Click to expand...

Let's say that everyones average dropped the same amount when the league went from 10 point to 8 point system. So 9's went to 7's and 7's went to 5's.

Under the old system we had all 9's for a team total 45 and we played a team of 7's for a total of 35. We were giving up 10 points a round. All we had to do is win each game 10-7 and we end up winning the round by 5 points even though we barely skate by.

With the new system we are all 7's for a total of 35 and we play a bunch of 5's for 25 same 10 point handicap to the weak team but with the new scoring method, we win every game 8-7 and we lose the round by 5 points.

The SL was taken down 2 points for everyone, but it's the difference how you count the 8 ball that makes it (As other posters said) more fair to weaker teams.

Now instead of yawning and wondering if anyone can beat us, we have to play all out and destroy people in the event that a few of us have a close game or lose.

PS...to the OP. Our league never changes rules in the middle of a session and each night has that new rule applied when the session starts for that night. We might play with a new rule on Tusdays and Thursdays won't adopt it until their new session starts.
 
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I do

There are some teams that they give a guy a really hard time if he misses.Some guys even tell thier teammate what he did wrong even when he wins!That's ridiculous!
Click to expand...

Our team critiques each other all the time. We all know how the other plays and when we see a change in routine....we say something.

Unless you get a break-n-run, there is always room for improvement.

My team also plays more safties than any other team in the league.

If your average for a runout is only 25%, that means 3 out of 4 times you DON'T runout. If playing a safety at the right time increases my win percentage to 75%.......I'm playing the %
 
ne14tennis said:
Our team critiques each other all the time. We all know how the other plays and when we see a change in routine....we say something.

Unless you get a break-n-run, there is always room for improvement.

My team also plays more safties than any other team in the league.

If your average for a runout is only 25%, that means 3 out of 4 times you DON'T runout. If playing a safety at the right time increases my win percentage to 75%.......I'm playing the %
Click to expand...
I just figured out how to do the quote thing.
There's nothing wrong with crituquing.We won't hesitate to do that if necessary.If someone drops thier elbow,or pokes instead of strokes,or picks up thier bridge hand too early,we tell them,usually through visual hand signals lol.
But there are teams that get angry at one of thier players becuase he tried to break a cluster up naturally and either scratched or got tied up.THe guy is playing to win,and he gets crapped on by his teammates.
Our captain tells us that the only time he will get angry is when we play a shot to try to create something that isn't there.And he says the same thing, play the percentages.Losing the game by 4 balls trying to create a run that isn't there is NOWHERE near as valuble as a win by playing a few safes.If a safe is the higher percentage shot,play the safe.Or a two way shot,if it's there.
 
Question

Don't these league operators have to follow the National Organizations rules for scoring???
 
In the case of LeagueSys

Snapshot9 said:
Don't these league operators have to follow the National Organizations rules for scoring???
Click to expand...

My league is a BCAPL league that utilizes LeagueSys. The BCAPL itself has rules how to play the games but not how to score in league play. The league can setup a scoring system that meets the leagues need.

If I remember right, our LO told us that leagueSys will run leagues based on the 15 point or 8 point systems which was also why he changed from 10 to 8. Then he helped sell it to the players by stating what my earlier post did....made it level the table when weak teams play strong teams.

I'm a fan of the race to 13 format (No handicap) we play at the State and National level but our LO said he will never do that since teams that get beat 13-0 or 13-2 week in and week out will quit.
 
Our league director said the same thing about playing straight up.And i have to agree.The teams with less skill would basically be donating thier dues.Slowly there would be less and less teams wanting to play.
I get the reason why there is a handicap.I just can't understand why they want to change it when it's really not broke.
But actually I like the sound of the system ne14tennis is talking about.A lot of times when the handicap is 8 or 9 those first three games can make up that handicap,like you said.Your way seems to kind of even things out a bit.
The system they have us on now figures your opponents balls from that game into your average.It sounded like a good idea when they talked about it,but it was messed up.What happened was that a really good team could play a not so good team and crush them.The not so good teams averages would go real low,and the team that played them the next week was giving them A LOT more than the team that crushed them.
There was one good team that was giving a not so good team 8 or 9 for a handicap.The good team beat them up pretty good,and the team that played the lower team the next week had to spot them 24 balls!Becuase the system took how bad the lower team was beat and thier averages dropped to almost nothing.
 
ne14tennis said:
Let's say that everyones average dropped the same amount when the league went from 10 point to 8 point system. So 9's went to 7's and 7's went to 5's.

Under the old system we had all 9's for a team total 45 and we played a team of 7's for a total of 35. We were giving up 10 points a round. All we had to do is win each game 10-7 and we end up winning the round by 5 points even though we barely skate by.

With the new system we are all 7's for a total of 35 and we play a bunch of 5's for 25 same 10 point handicap to the weak team but with the new scoring method, we win every game 8-7 and we lose the round by 5 points.

The SL was taken down 2 points for everyone, but it's the difference how you count the 8 ball that makes it (As other posters said) more fair to weaker teams.

Now instead of yawning and wondering if anyone can beat us, we have to play all out and destroy people in the event that a few of us have a close game or lose.

PS...to the OP. Our league never changes rules in the middle of a session and each night has that new rule applied when the session starts for that night. We might play with a new rule on Tusdays and Thursdays won't adopt it until their new session starts.
Click to expand...

I guess what I don't understand is how everyone's handicap goes down by 2 points. Weaker players, since they win a low percentage of their matches hardly have their handicaps change at all with the lower 8 point win, since the points for winning are rarely part of their handicap because they hardly win. On the other hand, if you are all 9's then you are averaging 3 out of 4 wins every week so it would affect the better players number more. That's why I say when you play weaker teams you won't be giving away as many points. The handicaps of the lesser skilled players won't go down as much as the better players because they are winning much fewer games.
 
It's In The Math

DogsPlayingPool said:
I guess what I don't understand is how everyone's handicap goes down by 2 points. Weaker players, since they win a low percentage of their matches hardly have their handicaps change at all with the lower 8 point win, since the points for winning are rarely part of their handicap because they hardly win. On the other hand, if you are all 9's then you are averaging 3 out of 4 wins every week so it would affect the better players number more. That's why I say when you play weaker teams you won't be giving away as many points. The handicaps of the lesser skilled players won't go down as much as the better players because they are winning much fewer games.
Click to expand...

Everybody went down 2 points because we went from a 10 point to 8 point system. Under the old system if you won all 5 games, you got a 50. Divide that by 5 and it's a 10. Hence if you win all 5 games under the 8 point system, you're a 8. And you are correct, the better players (8 and above) were affected more.

They threw out all the old stats and everyone started out fresh and had to establish an average under the new scoring system.

Someone that consistantly got 7 balls or less was still let's say a 7 or a 6. Now the 9's and 10's were 8's or less. The SL is not as important as the new way the match was scored.

PS....Playing a new team is brutal and our LO always seems to give us the unrated teams to play first. You beat them down and they make it up with handicap. It almost alway ends up being a split.
 
ne14tennis,has your new system gotten more teams into your league?It sounds like thats what your league operators wanted to do when they did that.I hope it worked and brought more teams to your league.I think my league operator just wanted to screw that one really good team.
We have three nights to play on.Tuesdays and Thursdays are the serious nights and Wednesdays are for teams that just want to have fun.There's no playoffs on that night or anything,wherever you finish is where you place.So there is sort of an introductory night for people that want to not play so serious.
 
Bud Fox said:
ne14tennis,has your new system gotten more teams into your league?It sounds like thats what your league operators wanted to do when they did that.I hope it worked and brought more teams to your league.I think my league operator just wanted to screw that one really good team.
We have three nights to play on.Tuesdays and Thursdays are the serious nights and Wednesdays are for teams that just want to have fun.There's no playoffs on that night or anything,wherever you finish is where you place.So there is sort of an introductory night for people that want to not play so serious.
Click to expand...

Not really, if anything we lost a few teams. We have a Tuesday 8 Ball with 12-14 teams. A Tuesday 9 ball with 6-8 teams. A Wednesday 8 Ball with 18-20 teams, a Thursday 8 Ball with 10 teams and a Sunday 8 Ball 8 -12 teams.

We used to have a Tuesday Master Div. That Div paid out different to where 1st place made out real good and the rest of the teams didn't get too much back. Little by little that Division dwindled and they did away with it. Now they pay out 1st to last based on how many rounds your team won. Whatever is left over is split by where you finished. Needless to say, 1st place barely pays back what you spent. LO's won't change that since it seems to be the magic formula. Everybody gets money!! So no matter how bad the team is....they keep coming back.
 
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