Why do rules questions always draw these kinds of responses?

DieselPete

New member
I'm new here but I have already read a few "rules question" threads and see that the OP is noting something that does happen. A few posts have the actual answer and cite the rule number. Then there is a lot of "around here." There seems to be some additional challenge by having varied governing bodies, that create "it depends" answers.

It probably is healthy for a sport that participants know and apply the rules accurately and consistently. For that reason, limiting "around here" rules might be best. But we would be naive to think they won't exist. Sometimes you just have to know whether you are playing by THE rules (and which rules) or the "around here" rules.

Other sports deal with this too. Take golf, for example. There are THE rules (you must putt out, a lost ball is replayed from the previous spot not from where you think it went), but most friendly groups will modify those rules to play the game more quickly and in a more friendly manner. But when it's tournament time, they better know and be able to apply the rules. For most amateur golfers who are teeing it up for the first time in a tournament, this is very hard and typically leads to higher than expected scores (if your buddies give you ten 3-footers per round and you now have to make them, you'll miss some and it is far more stressful).

As someone who is returning to cue sports and is trying to catch up on rules changes, I am surprised by the lack of consistency, as I see things like "break from the box" and "qualifying breaks" and "spotting the nine, not the one ball" and "winner breaks, or alternate breaks" and some tournaments that are doing none of those things and I am left thinking that cue sports can be all over the place sometimes.
 

jimmyco

NRA4Life
Gold Member
Silver Member
I enjoy these threads (not this actual one).

Some members opinions are valued and their input most welcome, even if we do not agree.
Others, who we know where they hail from, it's nice to hear how it's handled down yonder.

Certain aspects may come to light. An example; A frozen ball must contact a separate "rail". Is the rule a rail or a cushion?
 

Geosnookery

Active member
Original posters are asking for rules and/or rule clarifications.

The majority of the responses are usually things like personal opinions and irrelevent stuff like "that's the way it is played around here" rather than referencing actual rules.
I’ve been in the sciences for decades. Science 101...define your terms and have supporting references.

Questions about ‘rules’ have no meaning without context. ‘What is a strike out in baseball?’ ‘If Davy is at bat, it’s two misses but if his little brother, Johnny, is at bat, it’s four misses’: that answer is no less legitimate than any other answer.

Rule questions need context:

‘In the MLB what is a strike out?’ Even then there may be variations. Maybe the batter has two strikes and is ejected from the game for hitting the umpire. Is that an out? Let’s check the rule book ( the reference) . We don’t check ‘any ’ rule book but the latest official one.

Anyways, a well put question on rules is asked with some context. A well written answer on rules has qualifying perameters. And professional rules are far from any ultimate thing to go on. I play hockey and 99.99% of hockey doesn’t use NHL rules. I suspect there’s a thousand little league baseball games for every MLB game... different rules.
 
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DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you want answers, go to a rulebook. If you want opinions ask a forum.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
When there is more than one sanctioning organization & associated rulebook, confusion is unavoidable. There is also the issue of ‘tradition’. While official rules may change (likely to speed play or avoid contention, etc.), if playing older opponents not especially comfortable with change, waving the latest rule book at them may not get you anywhere (and that could include tournament directors/referees). No such thing as ‘too much knowledge‘!
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Even at world class level, application of the rules varies. Some rules you see at some pro events but not others:

a) all ball fouls
b) break from the box
c) three point rule for breaking
d) time limit (shot clock) with one extension per rack
e) a second time extension in the double rack
f) rack your own
g) rack for your opponent
h) neutral racker
i) lag for break
j) coin toss for break
k) money ball counts on the break
l) money ball doesn't count on the break
m) money ball counts on the break only in some pockets
n) jump cues not allowed
o) winner breaks
p) alternate break
q) shot clock stops when you get the bridge or your jump cue
r) shot clock keeps running while you gt the bridge or your jump cue
s) one on the spot on the break
t) nine on the spot on the break

When one asks a rules question on the forum, one best be prepared for a multitude of answers, as there is no standard way in which rules are applied. The rule book is, chiefly, a guideline, so the "this is how we play it around here" is a perfectly valid response to a rules inquiry, save incredibly simple rules questions like "do I spot a ball in this situation?"
 
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Dead Money

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Original posters are asking for rules and/or rule clarifications.

The majority of the responses are usually things like personal opinions and irrelevent stuff like "that's the way it is played around here" rather than referencing actual rules.
We are in a virtual pool room here on AZB. Most of us are not bots that spit out information like Google. The trips into "tangent land" is what makes this place fun and interesting....plus you usually get the info you need too.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Original posters are asking for rules and/or rule clarifications.

The majority of the responses are usually things like personal opinions and irrelevent stuff like "that's the way it is played around here" rather than referencing actual rules.

The issue is that there are about 5-6 "official" rules depending on what people are asking about and about 10 other maybe rules that are in common use.

BCA, WPA, APA, USAPL, TAP, and others have rule sets that are "official" and to get a ruling one first has to know from what origination the question was from. Usually the good players are assumed to be playing by the WPA rules. However there are players that know nothing but APA or some other league rule and the "official" rules for them may be different. And when it comes to break rules, 9/10 on the break, game ball shot in last, races to win, all that goes out the window since even the most official of tournaments change that sometimes several times a decade.

For me, if I play someone that I know is a "player" I assume we are going by WPA rules with whatever modifications we make like 9 does not count on the break. When it comes down to what a foul is, I expect that to be pretty much universal outside of the banger level and some league modifications which I don't really consider "real" rules, but many people do.
 

Saturated Fats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The issue is that there are about 5-6 "official" rules depending on what people are asking about and about 10 other maybe rules that are in common use.

BCA, WPA, APA, USAPL, TAP, and others have rule sets that are "official" and to get a ruling one first has to know from what origination the question was from. Usually the good players are assumed to be playing by the WPA rules. However there are players that know nothing but APA or some other league rule and the "official" rules for them may be different. And when it comes to break rules, 9/10 on the break, game ball shot in last, races to win, all that goes out the window since even the most official of tournaments change that sometimes several times a decade.

For me, if I play someone that I know is a "player" I assume we are going by WPA rules with whatever modifications we make like 9 does not count on the break. When it comes down to what a foul is, I expect that to be pretty much universal outside of the banger level and some league modifications which I don't really consider "real" rules, but many people do.
While all of the above may be true, it misses the point of the original question which is about responding with personal opinions and local traditions rather than real honest to goodness rules.
 

Ghosst

Broom Handle Mafia
Silver Member
a) cue ball fouls
b) break from the box
c) three point rule for breaking
d) time limit (shot clock) with one extension per rack (for slow players)
f) rack your own
i) lag for break
k) money ball counts on the break
n) jump cues not allowed
o) winner breaks
q) shot clock stops when you get the bridge (if used)
s) one on the spot on the break
Fixed.
 

Ghosst

Broom Handle Mafia
Silver Member
...The majority of the responses are usually things like personal opinions and irrelevent stuff like "that's the way it is played around here" rather than referencing actual rules.
Around here, that's how we answer. :D

Stu's (SJM) answer was the real one BTW.
 

jimmyco

NRA4Life
Gold Member
Silver Member
Personal opinion and 'round here rules is the price one must pay for LMGTFY.

Not simply the rule, it's the law.
 

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve been in the sciences for decades. Science 101...define your terms and have supporting references.

Questions about ‘rules’ have no meaning without context. ‘What is a strike out in baseball?’ ‘If Davy is at bat, it’s two misses but if his little brother, Johnny, is at bat, it’s four misses’: that answer is no less legitimate than any other answer.

Rule questions need context:

‘In the MLB what is a strike out?’ Even then there may be variations. Maybe the batter has two strikes and is ejected from the game for hitting the umpire. Is that an out? Let’s check the rule book ( the reference) . We don’t check ‘any ’ rule book but the latest official one.

Anyways, a well put question on rules is asked with some context. A well written answer on rules has qualifying perameters. And professional rules are far from any ultimate thing to go on. I play hockey and 99.99% of hockey doesn’t use NHL rules. I suspect there’s a thousand little league baseball games for every MLB game... different rules.
Like , Be specific Bob?
 
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