Why Do Snooker Players Bend Their Elbow?

[Pidge]

Its something not many do instinctively... The natural way for many is to lock their bridge elbow. So why do they go against what comes naturally?

Well, here is my take on what benefits a slight kink in the elbow has. Firstly, it allows you to comfortably transfer more weight forward in your stance without putting too much pressure onto the shoulder and hand. Getting the elbow on the table feels weird at first because it forces you to lean slightly forward into the shot. For me it feels a lot more stable with the extra body part touching the table. So stability is another reason.

The way snooker players align the hips and shoulders to the shot plays a part. The hips and shoulders tend to be a lot squarer to the shot which with a straight arm means they would have to twist and bend the torso slightly more... Which becomes very very uncomfortable after a full day of practice. So a slight bend of the elbow can bring the bridge hand onto the line of aim without the shoulder of the bridge arm being anywhere close to the line of aim... So less twisting and bending.

The biggest pro for me is it adds extra inches to my follow through. With a locked elbow I follow through 6-7 inches. With my elbow on the table and a bend in it my follow through is 10 inches. What this means is I get through the ball a lot better. I can draw the ball much further, hit the ball harder all with the same bridge distance. I like to pull the cue back all the way to my bridge which means a pull back of around 13-14 inches, even on the slow shots. With a locked elbow in these shots I tend to jab because my follow through is limited or I try and force more follow through and drop my elbow at the wrong time or too much.

Now, the traditional pool stance does not gain anything from a bent elbow.. A locked elbow is far more beneficial to a side on higher stance. But, I've read a lot of posters on here are taking up snooker fundamentals but may be used to playing with a locked elbow... Give this a try and see how cleaner you get through the ball.

 

[randyg]

Maybe a "locked elbow" creates stress.

randyg

 

[Pidge]

Maybe. I just feel all hunched up with a locked elbow. It also puts a lot of strain on the elbow joint.

 

[Zphix]

Pidge,

When I was having problems with a perfectly straight stroke, I was messing around with my body mechanics (literal body mechanics by the way) to see how different bends influence the rest of my body for shooting and I stumbled on this but eventually got rid of it.

What bending my elbow did for me is it forced me to turn my chest inward and get it out of the way of my stroke, it also pulled my grip-hand shoulder behind my head farther to keep everything on the shot line.

However, I found it hard to concentrate on the shot because so much unnatural stimuli was in my view when down on the shot.

It has it's benefits and I think it's a relatively short way to learn to get them. But I had a few drawbacks and had to re-think my approach as well and that lead me to stop bending my elbow as much as possible.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

Maybe a "locked elbow" creates stress.

randyg

randyg..
I think you're correct saying a locked elbow creates stress. A bent elbow
is more comfortable. The longer you play, less stress means less fatigue.

.

 

[Straightpool_99]

As someone who plays a lot of snooker (at least until recently) I have always been puzzled by the emphasis placed on the bent elbow. I was taught this, and have been playing with it for many years, but about 2-3 months before my forced hiatus from all things billiards due to a medical issue, I started using a straight arm, partly because of playing some 3 cushion, in which the stance is different. The medical issue affected my cueing arm and shoulder, and was unrelated to the change, btw.

I loved the stability offered by the straight arm. So I started using it in pool and snooker too. Same findings. It makes it so much easier to keep still, and I can't really find any drawbacks to it. I still get through the ball equally well, I don't feel a great deal of stress although if I was playing for 20 hours at a time, maybe I would feel it more.

Extending the limbs fully IS somewhat unnatural, but what is natural is not always what works best. So long as you don't experience any pain or discomfort (in which case I would revert to the bent elbow) I don't see the harm. If it feels uncomfortable and wrong to you, then ok, it's not for you. But the part about "getting through the ball" is just silly. The long follow through is just taught to ensure that you hit the ball with a well timed stroke, and that you don't stop or jerk the cue. In fact after the hit, it pretty much does not matter what you do with the cue AS LONG AS YOU DON'T TRY TO STOP IT'S MOVEMENT OR DO ANYTHING THAT MIGHT AFFECT THE CUEING "PRE-STRIKE", LIKE TENSING MUSCLES IN ANTICIPATION OF THE STOPPING MOTION. You can accellerate equally welll and smoothly with a somewhat shorter follow through caused by straightening the arm. I dare anyone to prove otherwise.

 

[Pidge]

Pidge,

When I was having problems with a perfectly straight stroke, I was messing around with my body mechanics (literal body mechanics by the way) to see how different bends influence the rest of my body for shooting and I stumbled on this but eventually got rid of it.

What bending my elbow did for me is it forced me to turn my chest inward and get it out of the way of my stroke, it also pulled my grip-hand shoulder behind my head farther to keep everything on the shot line.

However, I found it hard to concentrate on the shot because so much unnatural stimuli was in my view when down on the shot.

It has it's benefits and I think it's a relatively short way to learn to get them. But I had a few drawbacks and had to re-think my approach as well and that lead me to stop bending my elbow as much as possible.

You touch upon another great benefit... Alignment. It helps get everything (of improtance) onto the line of aim.

Its a shame you didn't stick at it if it was getting everything aligned. I remember trying the square stance with the feet 90 degrees to the shot line and I went home with sore hamstrings pain in my lower back muscles all because its not a natural way to stand. But I stuck at it and it helped my alignment hugely and my game went up. Comfort is important but alignment is the most important part of any cue sport.

 

[Pidge]

As someone who plays a lot of snooker (at least until recently) I have always been puzzled by the emphasis placed on the bent elbow. I was taught this, and have been playing with it for many years, but about 2-3 months before my forced hiatus from all things billiards due to a medical issue, I started using a straight arm, partly because of playing some 3 cushion, in which the stance is different. The medical issue affected my cueing arm and shoulder, and was unrelated to the change, btw.

I loved the stability offered by the straight arm. So I started using it in pool and snooker too. Same findings. It makes it so much easier to keep still, and I can't really find any drawbacks to it. I still get through the ball equally well, I don't feel a great deal of stress although if I was playing for 20 hours at a time, maybe I would feel it more.

Extending the limbs fully IS somewhat unnatural, but what is natural is not always what works best. So long as you don't experience any pain or discomfort (in which case I would revert to the bent elbow) I don't see the harm. If it feels uncomfortable and wrong to you, then ok, it's not for you. But the part about "getting through the ball" is just silly. The long follow through is just taught to ensure that you hit the ball with a well timed stroke, and that you don't stop or jerk the cue. In fact after the hit, it pretty much does not matter what you do with the cue AS LONG AS YOU DON'T TRY TO STOP IT'S MOVEMENT OR DO ANYTHING THAT MIGHT AFFECT THE CUEING "PRE-STRIKE", LIKE TENSING MUSCLES IN ANTICIPATION OF THE STOPPING MOTION. You can accellerate equally welll and smoothly with a somewhat shorter follow through caused by straightening the arm. I dare anyone to prove otherwise.

How low do you get on shots?

Getting through the ball better because of a kink in the elbow is something professionals and instructors alike all agree on in snooker. If you don't have issues in getting through the ball with a locked arm then it will not help much. But if you do this is something that can really help.

Joe Davis played with a locked arm. It didn't seem to bother him. But as times change there is reason for all the top 16 players in the world playing with a bent elbow. If it didn't help they wouldn't do it.

 

[Zphix]

You touch upon another great benefit... Alignment. It helps get everything (of improtance) onto the line of aim.

Its a shame you didn't stick at it if it was getting everything aligned. I remember trying the square stance with the feet 90 degrees to the shot line and I went home with sore hamstrings pain in my lower back muscles all because its not a natural way to stand. But I stuck at it and it helped my alignment hugely and my game went up. Comfort is important but alignment is the most important part of any cue sport.

If you can find a picture to give a visual example that would help. "Bend" seems to be ambiguous here.

The bend I was talking about was going from having my elbow at a 135 degree angle to an almost 90 degree angle. That much bend was uncomfortable but I still shoot with my elbow bent at a 135 degree angle instead of being nearly straight. I never noticed it but because of this thread I looked over a few videos and pro pool players seem to have their bridge hand very straight. That doesn't work for me because I'm taller.

Would need to see a picture of the "bend" you're talking about to confirm or deny me continuing to do this.

-Richard

 

[Straightpool_99]

How low do you get on shots?

Getting through the ball better because of a kink in the elbow is something professionals and instructors alike all agree on in snooker. If you don't have issues in getting through the ball with a locked arm then it will not help much. But if you do this is something that can really help.

Joe Davis played with a locked arm. It didn't seem to bother him. But as times change there is reason for all the top 16 players in the world playing with a bent elbow. If it didn't help they wouldn't do it.

I get all the way down, chin on cue, but not in the traditional way.

I feel that snooker coaching is somewhat schizophrenic. On one hand, most snooker players have a pretty realistic view on the role of eqipment (tips, cues) etc, which is to say, the don't overemphasize this. Also the techniques taught are very down to earth, not a lot of fancy aiming systems and junk like that. On the other hand there is a lot of "magical thinking" in the snooker world. Unrealistic views on deflection and swerve, stupid claims about spin transfer between cueball and object ball not happening and a lot of strange views about the stroke, that the follow through is somehow creating effects in and of itself. While I do think that the timing and quality of the stroke is extremely important, after the cueball has left the tip, nothing you do matters UNLESS YOU DO THE STUFF I MENTIONED IN THE OTHER POST.

The braced back leg and bent arm and stuff works, since all the snooker pros (with a handful of exceptions) are using it. If you are not a young, slender man in perfect health, on the other hand, you may have to look elsewhere for instruction on how to position your body in order to get your chin on the cue etc. I think the braced arm can replicate SOME of the effects of the braced back leg, in people that are not able to bend like that. I need to bend both my knees, because my back is not perfect. So I guess the arm helps to brace me a bit, although a straight leg might be better.

 

[Pidge]

If you can find a picture to give a visual example that would help. "Bend" seems to be ambiguous here.

The bend I was talking about was going from having my elbow at a 135 degree angle to an almost 90 degree angle. That much bend was uncomfortable but I still shoot with my elbow bent at a 135 degree angle instead of being nearly straight. I never noticed it but because of this thread I looked over a few videos and pro pool players seem to have their bridge hand very straight. That doesn't work for me because I'm taller.

Would need to see a picture of the "bend" you're talking about to confirm or deny me continuing to do this.

-Richard

http://www.thesnookerblog.com/wp-co...te_Frontview1.png.pagespeed.ic.MjqMh09fNA.jpg
Hopefully this link works.

90degrees seems like a hell of a lot of bend.

 

[Pidge]

I get all the way down, chin on cue, but not in the traditional way.

I feel that snooker coaching is somewhat schizophrenic. On one hand, most snooker players have a pretty realistic view on the role of eqipment (tips, cues) etc, which is to say, the don't overemphasize this. Also the techniques taught are very down to earth, not a lot of fancy aiming systems and junk like that. On the other hand there is a lot of "magical thinking" in the snooker world. Unrealistic views on deflection and swerve, stupid claims about spin transfer between cueball and object ball not happening and a lot of strange views about the stroke, that the follow through is somehow creating effects in and of itself. While I do think that the timing and quality of the stroke is extremely important, after the cueball has left the tip, nothing you do matters UNLESS YOU DO THE STUFF I MENTIONED IN THE OTHER POST.

The braced back leg and bent arm and stuff works, since all the snooker pros (with a handful of exceptions) are using it. If you are not a young, slender man in perfect health, on the other hand, you may have to look elsewhere for instruction on how to position your body in order to get your chin on the cue etc. I think the braced arm can replicate SOME of the effects of the braced back leg, in people that are not able to bend like that. I need to bend both my knees, because my back is not perfect. So I guess the arm helps to brace me a bit, although a straight leg might be better.

I agree the snooker world do have a warped sense of some of the physics behind the game. They don't have a Dr Dave though to be fair. More and more are starting to read through his website and more and more are getting to grips with what actually goes on when playing with side.

The follow throigh doesn't effect the shot, I understand that but what the follow through does is tell you how you've hit the shot. If you have a lengthier follow through then your cue action has more time to transition from stop to finish. It makes it easier to control acceleration imo.

Pool players are just as misinformed as snooker players, its just the stuff pool players know are the things snooker players don't and visa versa.

 

[Zphix]

http://www.thesnookerblog.com/wp-co...te_Frontview1.png.pagespeed.ic.MjqMh09fNA.jpg
Hopefully this link works.

90degrees seems like a hell of a lot of bend.

The link works and that's pretty close to how I'm positioned when playing.

The 90 degree bend was a lot but it did force my body into a better position but there were too many drawbacks to it so I had to go back to the drawing board. After a few months I got it figured out.

Good thread Pidge! This was something else I'd have never noticed without someone pointing it out.

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

I agree the snooker world do have a warped sense of some of the physics behind the game. They don't have a Dr Dave though to be fair. More and more are starting to read through his website and more and more are getting to grips with what actually goes on when playing with side.

The follow throigh doesn't effect the shot, I understand that but what the follow through does is tell you how you've hit the shot. If you have a lengthier follow through then your cue action has more time to transition from stop to finish. It makes it easier to control acceleration imo.

Pool players are just as misinformed as snooker players, its just the stuff pool players know are the things snooker players don't and visa versa.

^^^ That's funny! Snooker players only happen to be the best cueist in the world! :thumbup:

 

[snucar]

I feel that snooker coaching is somewhat schizophrenic. On one hand, most snooker players have a pretty realistic view on the role of eqipment (tips, cues) etc, which is to say, the don't overemphasize this. Also the techniques taught are very down to earth, not a lot of fancy aiming systems and junk like that. On the other hand there is a lot of "magical thinking" in the snooker world. Unrealistic views on deflection and swerve, stupid claims about spin transfer between cueball and object ball not happening and a lot of strange views about the stroke, that the follow through is somehow creating effects in and of itself. While I do think that the timing and quality of the stroke is extremely important, after the cueball has left the tip, nothing you do matters UNLESS YOU DO THE STUFF I MENTIONED IN THE OTHER POST.

You have everything figured out, haven't you? How much do you charge for a lesson? Any DVDs or books? Do you accept PayPal?:smile:

 

[Ron Swanson]

I agree the snooker world do have a warped sense of some of the physics behind the game. They don't have a Dr Dave though to be fair. More and more are starting to read through his website and more and more are getting to grips with what actually goes on when playing with side.

The follow throigh doesn't effect the shot, I understand that but what the follow through does is tell you how you've hit the shot. If you have a lengthier follow through then your cue action has more time to transition from stop to finish. It makes it easier to control acceleration imo.

Pool players are just as misinformed as snooker players, its just the stuff pool players know are the things snooker players don't and visa versa.

Snooker players know the hows but not the whats, while pool players know the whats but not the hows.

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

Snooker players know the hows but not the whats, while pool players know the whats but not the hows.

When it comes to Pool I agree with this ^^^.
However there isn't a living pool player that could teach a Snooker Pro about Snooker.
Not sure if that's what you meant. Apologies if not... :thumbup:

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

Snooker players know the hows but not the whats, while pool players know the whats but not the hows.

When it comes to Pool I agree with this ^^^.
However there isn't a living pool player that could teach a Snooker Pro about Snooker.
Not sure if that's what you meant. Apologies if not... :thumbup:

 

[O'SulliReyes]

The main advantage of the bent elbow is that it allows you to get more action on the cue ball. The extra inches of follow through is the natural side effect of this. See what former world snooker champion John Parrott has to say about this at the 3:30 mark of the following clip: http://youtu.be/2U9C4x0IggY

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The main advantage of the bent elbow is that it allows you to get more action on the cue ball. The extra inches of follow through is the natural side effect of this. See what former world snooker champion John Parrott has to say about this at the 3:30 mark of the following clip: http://youtu.be/2U9C4x0IggY

I don't follow this. How does bending the bridge arm change the stroke or its distance? Isn't that all about the stroking arm? Unless you line up a different distance from the CB I don't see what difference it makes.

pj
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