Why doesn't the object ball seem to overcut when using extreme low English?

JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
There are two pages in the following cue table diagram and I was wondering what you AZers think about the following shot.

When two of our better players tried using one tip of low English the ball split the pocket but when two tips of low English was used the object ball was overcut and missed the pocket by an inch. This was done pretty consistently.

What is the reason that YOU think was that the ball overcut with the extreme low English?


CueTable Help



Thanks,
JoeyA
 
I don't think using center draw or follow on cuts makes much of a difference, if any at all. Was the person making adjustments for the way he/she was missing the shot?

Some people think that by putting extreme follow or draw on thin cuts causes the ball to cut more. I think that is just the person's own mind playing tricks on them.

I've noticed that alot of times when I miss a shot the same way, and I try to make an adjustment for the way I kept missing it, subconciously I try to cancel out the adjustment that I made by swerving my cue at the last second. It seems like even though I have conciously made the decision that the adjustment is correct, instinct takes over at the last second, and I try to make an adjustment to the adjustment that I already made (by changing my alignment or swerving my cue, etc.) It's a bad habit for me and I'm certain for many players.
 
i have experienced this on this sort of shot, and i think it's just our crappy aim! lol

for some reason there seems to be a tendancy to aim a little thinner on these shots.

i think the reason we do it is because most of us, most of the time, use outside english on our shots. so we are used to adjusting our aim because of the deflection from the cue. but obviously we're only using the centre axis here so the adjusting for now reason causes us to miss the shot.
 
Overcut was hit thinner. Some people have difficulty aiming at the target, when their cue tip is at different places on their cue ball....randyg
 
randyg said:
Overcut was hit thinner. Some people have difficulty aiming at the target, when their cue tip is at different places on their cue ball....randyg
Click to expand...

Also depends on the height of your bridge that it may be adding a slight masse effect if you shoot this much like a stop shot.


Just curious Joey, how well do they shoot the same shot to the right hand pocket (mirror opposite)?
 
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Why DOES the object ball seem to overcut when using extreme low English w/fas stroke?

cuetechasaurus said:
I don't think using center draw or follow on cuts makes much of a difference, if any at all. Was the person making adjustments for the way he/she was missing the shot?

Some people think that by putting extreme follow or draw on thin cuts causes the ball to cut more. I think that is just the person's own mind playing tricks on them.

I've noticed that alot of times when I miss a shot the same way, and I try to make an adjustment for the way I kept missing it, subconciously I try to cancel out the adjustment that I made by swerving my cue at the last second. It seems like even though I have conciously made the decision that the adjustment is correct, instinct takes over at the last second, and I try to make an adjustment to the adjustment that I already made (by changing my alignment or swerving my cue, etc.) It's a bad habit for me and I'm certain for many players.
Click to expand...


I posted this thread last night tired as I could be and used he wrong word in the heading. It should have been DOES not doesn't. Sorry, my bad.

Anyway this morning I woke up and think I may have the answer. I seriously was looking for someone to explain to me why the object ball was being over-cut. I could have also said that these were HARD-STROKED , very low Draw shots. I was tired and that's all I can blame the lack of communication on.

My theory this morning when I woke is that the cue ball must be hopping and not hitting the contact point that we were aiming at. It occurs most often on the more acute angle. The 10-15 degree angle didn't seem to be affected adversely.

If you have any other theories I would like to hear them.

Thanks,
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
What is the reason that YOU think was that the ball overcut with the extreme low English?
Click to expand...

Stunning into the OB will cause more throw than extreme draw or follow at OB contact, especially around 1/2-ball hit like your diagram. The 1-tip shot could have been sliding when it hit the OB, giving it max throw for that cut angle. The 2-tip shot still had significant draw at contact, reducing the throw and causing a thinner cut for the same hit.

This assumes all players kept everything constant except cue tip contact point for the tests.

However, the diagram shows a more significant cut angle difference between the make and the miss than might be explained only by this principle. Therefore, it's likely that some error was being introduced for some mechanical reason due to shooting at high speed, especially since high speed tends to reduce throw.

Were the shooters elevating their cues in order to draw the ball, or were they using level strokes? Some people elevate more for max draw, and that could cause the jumping you mention to be more of a difference between the two.

Robert
 
I have a theory/WAG on this. If you imagine that at one tip of draw the CB is not spinning backwards at contact w/the OB, then that's when the coefficient of friction is maxed out because you're talking more static rather than kinetic (static coefficient always higher than kinetic coefficient). Now at two tips of draw the CB is actually spinning backwards and the contact area between the balls is subject more to the effects of the kinetic coefficient of friction, thus you get less throw and the OB overcuts.

Edit: Savagely sarnathed by 3 minutes...drat!
 
JoeyA said:
...I could have also said that these were HARD-STROKED , very low Draw shots. I was tired and that's all I can blame the lack of communication on.

My theory this morning when I woke is that the cue ball must be hopping and not hitting the contact point that we were aiming at. It occurs most often on the more acute angle. The 10-15 degree angle didn't seem to be affected adversely.

...
Click to expand...

I think this is the theory. Have you ever watch snooker? When the contact get THE KICK, it almost always miss. And when it get the kick, the cue ball jumps. Withe a hard-stroked low draw shot, the cue ball isn't rolling but flying above the cloth.
 
It would be easier if we saw the shot. It was either one of two things, maybe a combination.
1) They just missed the shot. Often players will get soo focused on the english or where they want to hit the cue ball that their stroke or aim might get thrown off and it doesn't take much to miss a shot.
2) They hit it hard, with a downwards motion to get the draw. In turn this made the cue ball slightly jump off the table, it probably hit in mud bounce and changed the angle. The result of that would be an overcut ball.
 
It's the hop...start removing some pace in slow linear amounts and see whether is starts to correct it's self.

Nick


JoeyA said:
I posted this thread last night tired as I could be and used he wrong word in the heading. It should have been DOES not doesn't. Sorry, my bad.

Anyway this morning I woke up and think I may have the answer. I seriously was looking for someone to explain to me why the object ball was being over-cut. I could have also said that these were HARD-STROKED , very low Draw shots. I was tired and that's all I can blame the lack of communication on.

My theory this morning when I woke is that the cue ball must be hopping and not hitting the contact point that we were aiming at. It occurs most often on the more acute angle. The 10-15 degree angle didn't seem to be affected adversely.

If you have any other theories I would like to hear them.

Thanks,
JoeyA
Click to expand...
 
Nick B said:
It's the hop...start removing some pace in slow linear amounts and see whether is starts to correct it's self.

Nick
Click to expand...

Some very nice answers by all.

Nick, I will do some experimenting with slowing the pace down to see if it is the hop that is causing us to miss so frequently. That should remove the hop if any.

Thanks,
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
Some very nice answers by all.

Nick, I will do some experimenting with slowing the pace down to see if it is the hop that is causing us to miss so frequently. That should remove the hop if any.

Thanks,
JoeyA
Click to expand...

Don't know how hard you played. But if you slowed it too much, it will not draw, but it will just roll forward. That wouldn't be a good test.
 
WesleyW said:
Don't know how hard you played. But if you slowed it too much, it will not draw, but it will just roll forward. That wouldn't be a good test.
Click to expand...

OK, thanks Wesley. Appreciate the input.
JoeyA
 
i must say, i didnt read through this thread, but have you ever notice you'll cut a ball a little less if you roll the cue ball vs if you hit it with like a centerball punch? ive always thought there was less friction between the balls when there is a rolling cueball (ie top or bottom spin does the same thing). the rolling ball doenst permit the object ball to stick as much and therefore cuts better.

under pressure ive made so many more balls with this knowledge becasue i relize my slightly errant looking aim (brought on by feel) is actually correct and i can shoot with confidence.
 
JoeyA said:
... What is the reason that YOU think was that the ball overcut with the extreme low English? ...
Click to expand...

Here's an article that explains it. It is pretty well understood now that both draw and follow cause the cut angle to increase because they both reduce the amount of throw, but many people still don't know about the results.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2006-05.pdf

It's better to not call draw and follow "English." Many people feel that the term English should only be applied to side spin shots (and thus some of the confusion here). To be completely clear, I think it is better to say "side spin" and "follow" and "draw" when referring to spin on the cue ball to avoid the wording problem entirely.
 
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