Why Ghost Ball Aiming Fails You

[JB Cases]

When I started using Hal's system to aim and now CTE my position play is hugely better because I am lined up right to make the shot and thus I can see where the cueball is going.
IF you can see where the cueball is going, that means you know where the tangent line is and you are imagining the collision.
Which is ghost ball method.
You can't image the cueball path after collision by looking at your shaft or pivot or bridge.
Only by imagining the collision can you tell where the cb is going.
And as Efren would call it , PATAMA.

ONce you are lined up on the shot you can SEE where the balls are going to collide.

If the line you end up on is exactly the same as where the ghost ball would be (if it were a real ball) then that does NOT mean you used Ghost Ball Imagination to get to that line.

Anyway, I know where you stand on this and it's fine. I think my experiment shows adequately that it's difficult to place an imaginary ball precisely.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

With me when I use CTE I see exactly where the cueball is going to hit the object ball and so the tangent line is clear.

I feel the exact opposite about Ghost Ball. Yes if properly applied you can see the tangent line BUT if your "ghost ball" is not lined up right then you are not seeing the right tangent line.

Hence my example above about missing the shot but getting perfect shape.

I also don't agree that caroms rely on Ghost Ball. I'd bet anything that carom players don't use GB when they play.

Maybe the idea of "ghost ball" is lost in translation. I do not see a "white circle" in front of the object ball, or a ball sitting on the contact point of the object ball. I see a 90 degree angle coming off the object ball, perpendicular to the line going to the pocket. That is the contact point where the ball needs to be struck, roughly, to make the ball. I then shoot the cueball across that "spot" However, I do see the line the ball travels down when I aim with this method.

Any method that envisions a contact point on the object ball is ghost ball. I hate to break it to you, John, but if you're envisioning a contact point on the OB, that ain't CTE. CTE is using the edge of the OB, and pivoting to centre on the cueball. It's a cueball and OB edge system only. The second you take into account a "contact point" on the object ball, you have just considered ghost ball.

 

[JB Cases]

Hi John,

Your post was thought provoking.

I am a player who considers myself one to use the "ghost ball" method.

I have however never focused on an imaginary dot 2 and a quarter inches from the contact point.

I have much better luck focusing EXACTLY on the contact point, and imagining the ghost ball touching that point (adjusting in my mind) for the diameter of the ghost ball. I am not focusing at an imaginary spot out in the middle of the table - but at exactly the contact point.

The "ghost" is an imaginary cue ball, the focus is on the exact contact point, and the aim (with no pivots) accounts for the diamater of the "ghost ball" to make sure both contact points align.

Thanks for giving me something to think about though...

Dan

And this is another interesting point in that people have variations on how they understand and use the Ghost Ball method. What you described is known as the B.O.B. method in Snooker or Back of Ball contact point. It's the point where the line from the pocket through the object ball exits the back of the ball.

I would say that using that method is certainly more accurate and reliable than trying to focus on a spot on the felt where the center of the ghost ball would be as Dr. Dave advocates. Or pointing your cue to a spot on the felt and then pivoting around that spot back to the cueball which is very difficult to hold the point with the cue tip.

 

[12squared]

Ghost Ball the way most teach it is wrong on long shots as Throw kills the shot, and you almost make it but do not.

If I hear this argument one more time I'm going to puke. Who ever said you HAVE TO aim the ghost ball into the center of the pocket for every shot? Aim it where it will make, adjusting your aim for throw.

John,

I see your point, but I don't see why you're getting hung up on the center point only. What makes a ghost ball easy for me to see, is that I aim for a full ghost ball, not the center point. And because it is so close to the object ball, visualizing a full ball is easy for me because you have the reference of the full ball right in my vision the whole time (object ball). And it doesn't matter how far I am from the object ball because the visual size reference is always to the same scale for the ghost ball.

Finding center of the ghost ball would maybe be a starting point to get you close, but I would never rely on that to be my aiming point. Again, I aim to hit a full ghost ball with my full cue ball.

I guess if you cannot visualize a full ghost ball, it is not for you. When playing 3 cushion, I used to visualize a full ghost ball behind the object ball on the same line/track I was trying to get to. This method is not for every angle, but it helps with many. In fact, for thinner angle where it didn’t help, I still used it to keep the line of aim visualized, I just wouldn’t aim for the ghost ball.

All that really matters is that the correct contact points are reached, the ghost ball helps me reach that without being mechanical about it so I can stay in the rhythm of the game.

Dave

 

[JB Cases]

If I hear this argument one more time I'm going to puke. Who ever said you HAVE TO aim the ghost ball into the center of the pocket for every shot? Aim it where it will make, adjusting your aim for throw.

John,

I see your point, but I don't see why you're getting hung up on the center point only. What makes a ghost ball easy for me to see, is that I aim for a full ghost ball, not the center point. And because it is so close to the object ball, visualizing a full ball is easy for me because you have the reference of the full ball right in my vision the whole time (object ball). And it doesn't matter how far I am from the object ball because the visual size reference is always to the same scale for the ghost ball.

Finding center of the ghost ball would maybe be a starting point to get you close, but I would never rely on that to be my aiming point. Again, I aim to hit a full ghost ball with my full cue ball.

I guess if you cannot visualize a full ghost ball, it is not for you. When playing 3 cushion, I used to visualize a full ghost ball behind the object ball on the same line/track I was trying to get to. This method is not for every angle, but it helps with many. In fact, for thinner angle where it didn’t help, I still used it to keep the line of aim visualized, I just wouldn’t aim for the ghost ball.

All that really matters is that the correct contact points are reached, the ghost ball helps me reach that without being mechanical about it so I can stay in the rhythm of the game.

Dave

The reason I am hung up on it is because I aim to show that although it's dead easy to understand as a concept it's truly not as easy to implement as a practice. At least not as Dr. Dave describes it with picking a spot on the felt that corresponds to the GB center.

I fully understand that one must not visualize the GB on a center line to the pocket.

Here is the kicker though.

IF you take a player and you ask them to line up two balls in line with a pocket at distance, say half a table or more away from the pocket, often they cannot line the balls up to the pocket. They will off enough to make the object ball miss. And that's with two real balls.

In other words it's really a matter of perception. While you can "see" the GB offset a fraction of an inch to the correct side another person can't see that even though they think that they do.

So they learn to compensate but that compensation breaks down in some places and they are now guessing again.

That's the problem I have with GB.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

If I hear this argument one more time I'm going to puke. Who ever said you HAVE TO aim the ghost ball into the center of the pocket for every shot? Aim it where it will make, adjusting your aim for throw.

You gave away the SECRET!!!!

Now go out and test the INFORMATION,.........this weekend...... :wink:

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

IF you take a player and you ask them to line up two balls in line with a pocket at distance, say half a table or more away from the pocket, often they cannot line the balls up to the pocket. They will off enough to make the object ball miss. And that's with two real balls.

In other words it's really a matter of perception. While you can "see" the GB offset a fraction of an inch to the correct side another person can't see that even though they think that they do.

And you're going to ask that same player to envision a line between the centre of the cueball and the edge of the object ball, and then pivot to the centre of the cueball to make the ball? If they cannot line up two balls in a straight line to the pocket, let's work on their eyesight before we teach them an aiming system.

 

[JB Cases]

Maybe the idea of "ghost ball" is lost in translation. I do not see a "white circle" in front of the object ball, or a ball sitting on the contact point of the object ball. I see a 90 degree angle coming off the object ball, perpendicular to the line going to the pocket. That is the contact point where the ball needs to be struck, roughly, to make the ball. I then shoot the cueball across that "spot" However, I do see the line the ball travels down when I aim with this method.

Any method that envisions a contact point on the object ball is ghost ball. I hate to break it to you, John, but if you're envisioning a contact point on the OB, that ain't CTE. CTE is using the edge of the OB, and pivoting to centre on the cueball. It's a cueball and OB edge system only. The second you take into account a "contact point" on the object ball, you have just considered ghost ball.

Well then if it is ghost ball then call it the 100% correct GB placement method - otherwise known as CTE. Because that's pretty much what it is if it brings me to a place where I can see what I should see IF I were to use the GB method perfectly.

The point is that I am NOT using GB to get to that aiming line.

And it's possible to visualize tangents without the ghost ball. I do it all the time with lines. You can superimpose your Ghost Ball on top of my lines and they will coincide but I definitely 100% am not using any type of imaginary ball, which is what Ghost Ball is, to determine my initial aim nor the resulting tangent.

However what you describe as GB exactly makes my point in that it's left up to the interpretation of the user as to how to use it. Dave Alciatore says that you should find a spot on the felt that is where the center of the ghost ball would be and hold that in your vision as you come back over the cue ball.

See I don't consider your method to be ghost ball at all and I can see where it would be much more accurate. I was taught something similar by a road player years ago.

Now imagine for a second that you walk up to the shot and see the center to edge line, so that puts you behind the cueball in the right direction, then you sweep across the balls with your eyes and identify the 90 degree line you describe and the line to the pocket and the contact point all in one moment, you then put your cue down and swing it into center ball and you're dead on the aiming line. That is the barest form of CTE that there is. NO GB needed.

 

[JB Cases]

And you're going to ask that same player to envision a line between the centre of the cueball and the edge of the object ball, and then pivot to the centre of the cueball to make the ball? If they cannot line up two balls in a straight line to the pocket, let's work on their eyesight before we teach them an aiming system.

No I didn't say that.

But I will bet that I can get them seeing the CTE line far easier than you can get them seeing imaginary balls set into the perfect spots.

 

[Neil]

...........

 

[JB Cases]

I had been thinking about writing a thread on how to make ghost ball work (due to all the incessent CTE threads.)

Geometric Ghost ball, as typically taught, is merely a starting point. It gives you the first aiming point, one that will work if the CB impacts the OB with just enough sidespin so the two surfaces have no lateral movement durring the instant of impact.

Advanced Ghost ball, is where you consider the sidespin on the OB and the consequence of throw, then move the imaginary pocket in the opposite direction as the throw, and then readjust the GB aiming point for this new pocket. You must also consider the new tangent line, here, although this is generally only a mild consideration.

Perfected Ghost ball, is when you also take into consideration the forward/backward spin on the CB at the moment of impact and compensate for the skid of the OB for the first inch or so of OB travel.

You still ahve to compensate for squirt and swerve between the tip CB impact and the CB-OB impact--by whatever method you utilize.

So, geometric Ghost ball is merely a starting point, which can be used wih adjustments to take and make almost any kind of shot imaginable.

Great post and good points. And one which makes the point I have been trying to make with everyone else.

GB is an easy concept to grasp and is damn hard to master. It's the "with adjustments" that is the issue and the only reliable way to know those adjustments, the infinite combination thereof IS by hitting a million balls while practicing a thousand different shots.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

However what you describe as GB exactly makes my point in that it's left up to the interpretation of the user as to how to use it. Dave Alciatore says that you should find a spot on the felt that is where the center of the ghost ball would be and hold that in your vision as you come back over the cue ball.

See I don't consider your method to be ghost ball at all and I can see where it would be much more accurate. I was taught something similar by a road player years ago.

Totally agree. Dave uses a spot on the felt. That's his interpretation of GB. I have a different impression that doesn't use the felt. I am, however, "projecting" my perceived contact points onto each other. I am estimating where the OB needs to be contacted, and estimating what part of the cueball will contact that point.

Perhaps we should rename the aiming systems. There are two schools of aiming - CTE aimers, and OBCP aimers. CTE being Centre to Edge, and OBCP being Object Ball Contact Point aimers. JoeyA, in his review regarding CTE/Pro One, referred to Stan as showing him he didn't need to look at the pocket, or even the OB after the pivot was done. I am an OBCP aimer - I "envision" a contact point on the object ball, and then set my aim around that point. CTE'ers will simply eyeball the edge of the object ball, and let the pivot do the aiming for them.

 

[Maniac]

Listen, I'm not trying to cause another stink on the CTE/Ghostball debate, but this thread is going to go exactly in the same direction as the other epic saga of "aiming systems" went. and that's downhill on a snowbank in a greased sled!

John, to start this thread you are using the same reasoning against Ghostball aiming as GMT did against CTE on the other thread. It smells like the classic "you stepped on my toes so I'll just beat up your little brother" reasoning. It is wrong for anyone to say anyone elses aiming methods are failing them, when in fact it just may be that the student just cannot grasp the concept and should probably move on to another method. To many persons on this site, starting this thread puts you in the same light as they hold GMT in.

I am going to mention some names here. There are many others I could list, but these few will be well representative of what I'm talking about: Jesse Bowman, Earl Strickland, Luc Salvas, "Machine Gun" Lou Butera, Brandon Shuff, etc. And believe me, I could list MANY others. These are players who, when on their games, can run a rack of 8-ball or 9-ball in a little over a minutes time. When they are doing this, I can assure you they are using a "feel" system derived from some sort of Ghostball system and not from CTE, to be sure.

Two words: Speed Pool...............not everyones cup of tea, but for sure entertaining. At the rate they are pocketing balls (and the best Speed Pool players are damn good at it), I can assure you that the same goes for them as does the players I mentioned above.

My point is, to say Ghostball aiming fails anyone is only a sad rebuttal to the thread that GMT started on the silliness of CTE, when in fact Ghostball aiming fails only certain persons who cannot adapt to it. The same can be said (and has been, obviously) about CTE or any other method used for aiming.

Why can't we all just agree that for the most part, all aiming systems are good and useful in the pool world, and that it's just up to each and every player as an INDIVIDUAL to find out which one works best for him/her?

Let's put aside bitter feelings and all try to get along the best we can here, for the sake of harmony in the pool community. Healthy debate is fine, but it seems like it just goes too far sometimes.

And......once again to be certain you understand, I am not a detractor of CTE. If it works for you and so many others as y'all have stated, then it is just as much a real and true method as anything out there, just as Ghostball is to others.

Flame me, type harsh words to me, I don't care. This will assuredly be my one and ONLY post in this thread.

Maniac

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I don't get into these aiming thread debates and mainly I aim by feel. I play my best when I am looking at the contact point even though I am not necessarily sending the CB on that line. My mind is adjusting for the diameter of the CB, english, yada yada... This is what I mean by feel. To the extent I'm using ghost ball it is simply to determine the contact point on the OB. When I shoot a shot I'm not visualizing the ghost ball and thinking about replacing it with the cue ball. I am simply looking looking at the contact point and my mind makes the adjustments for the fact that I'm probably not sending the CB on that path (except for a straight in shot for example).

But John, I do have a question. I don't understand the part about it can be difficult to line up the ghost ball properly, which seems like a fairly straightforward thing to do. If it is difficult to line up the ghost ball wouldn't that person have difficulty pocketing an OB shot directly into the pocket without even using a cue ball. I doubt many of us have that problem.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Not true. I envisioned the contact point for years using the equal-opposite method that Jimmy Reid teaches. It has nothing to do with a ghost ball. Fractional aiming also considers a contact point, but is not ghost ball.

True ghost ball is as what duckie says he does. He says he shoots the cb center to center of the ghost ball after picking the center of the ghost ball and envisioning it on the cloth.

What is interesting, though, is Jimmy Reid's system is from Marvin Chin. Marvin used Ghost Ball as a proof that his system worked, by giving the exact same aiming point as Ghost Ball. I have the book and can scan the image if you do not believe me.

 

[JB Cases]

I don't get into these aiming thread debates and mainly I aim by feel. I play my best when I am looking at the contact point even though I am not necessarily sending the CB on that line. My mind is adjusting for the diameter of the CB, english, yada yada... This is what I mean by feel. To the extent I'm using ghost ball it is simply to determine the contact point on the OB. When I shoot a shot I'm not visualizing the ghost ball and thinking about replacing it with the cue ball. I am simply looking looking at the contact point and my mind makes the adjustments for the fact that I'm probably not sending the CB on that path (except for a straight in shot for example).

But John, I do have a question. I don't understand the part about it can be difficult to line up the ghost ball properly, which seems like a fairly straightforward thing to do. If it is difficult to line up the ghost ball wouldn't that person have difficulty pocketing an OB shot directly into the pocket without even using a cue ball. I doubt many of us have that problem.

Think about the basic diagram and instructions on using GB.

The simplest is imagine a ball inline with the OB in line with the pocket. Hit that imaginary ball full in the face.

That's where we all started right?

Where did it get tough, backwards cuts, thin cuts, long shots. etc..... in other words most of us have "those shots" which just give us fits no matter how much we practice them.

I submit that using GB is the problem. I think that people, some people, see the GB well enough for a certain range of shots but when shots come up that are outside that range then it breaks down and they don't "see" the GB in the right place even though they think they are.

I honestly believe that it's this type of visualization error that leads people to get down on a shot in full confidence that they are lined up right and when they miss they are surprised because everything felt perfect.

I could be wrong but I don't think so.

 

[JB Cases]

What is interesting, though, is Jimmy Reid's system is from Marvin Chin. Marvin used Ghost Ball as a proof that his system worked, by giving the exact same aiming point as Ghost Ball. I have the book and can scan the image if you do not believe me.

That's it right there Shawn.

Ghost Ball IS the proper measure to see if an aiming system works because it is geometrically correct.

If any aiming system brings the shooter to the perfect Ghost Ball position then it works.

But Ghost Ball itself is not a good method to rely on BECAUSE it requires so much imagination and estimation. Ghost Ball is only really good for explaining aiming in such a way as to get people pointed in the right direction AND as a control for better aiming systems that are more precise.

In my opinion.

 

[Neil]

...........

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Yes, you can use ghost ball to verify contact to contact , and you can also use it to verify CTE. That does NOT mean that you are aiming with ghost ball with either one of them though. Aiming with ghost ball means "seeing" the ghost ball there, or, seeing where the ghost ball would contact the cloth, and aiming there.

Which is why I've proposed two different aiming camps. CTE and OBCP. Ghost Ball/Equal-Opposite/Geometric Contact Point can all be lumped into the category of Object Ball Contact Point. We pick out the contact point on the object ball, and send the cueball to it. CTE players line up with the edge of the OB and pivot to the aiming point. They use the cueball to arrive at the contact point.