Why Ghost Ball Aiming Fails You

[GetMeThere]

...Just aiming methods that dont work for certain people in accordance to how HIGH or LOW they are to the shot. People who are more upright and see the shot from more of a birds eye view use the ghostball aiming method A LOT more easier and accurately than people who get down low at an almost level approach. People who try to utilize the ghost ball in a low approach, have to look at the shot first from above to see where the ghost ball needs to be and THEN they have to memorize where that is while getting down and aiming into that spot. That IMHO is why ghostball method at such a low visual is harder than when upright like some late greats.

I find a lot to agree with in this. At one time, for a good year, I played standing ALMOST UPRIGHT (in an effort to copy Andy Hudson, the acknowledged "best player" in Denver at the time). It's great for aiming--natural GB sighting. But it's bad for stroke--EVERYTHING comes from the shoulder.

For me, GB is easy to see and set up from on high, but difficult when low.

I agree with others that a solution for me was to "set" my upright GB visual on some point/reference, and then use that point when I got down. I prefer to try to "cut into" the OB with the CB, by imagining where the edge of the CB will overlap the OB.

Still, most of my shooting was totally "feel." I used GB to help just where feel was WEAK.

At the end of the day, I have a feeling that ALL good players simply use feel--it's simply a matter of "knowing" where to "try" (i.e., "aim") to hit the OB with the CB. I think interviews with pros have verified that.

 

[sfleinen]

"Back of ball" aiming technique in snooker

to sum it up for EVERYONE...there is NO aiming method that doesnt work. Just aiming methods that dont work for certain people in accordance to how HIGH or LOW they are to the shot. People who are more upright and see the shot from more of a birds eye view use the ghostball aiming method A LOT more easier and accurately than people who get down low at an almost level approach. People who try to utilize the ghost ball in a low approach, have to look at the shot first from above to see where the ghost ball needs to be and THEN they have to memorize where that is while getting down and aiming into that spot. That IMHO is why ghostball method at such a low visual is harder than when upright like some late greats.

Pat:

There's some truth to this, but with a CAVEAT: snooker players, as we know, get down REALLY low on the shot -- "chinning" the cue. The aiming system of choice, as taught by professional snooker instructors like Del Hill and as practiced in snooker clubs and leagues? Ghostball (or "dummy ball" as it's called by the Brits). Later, players advance to an outgrowth of ghostball, called "Back of ball". "Back of ball" is very conducive to the view seen when "chinning" the cue, and is the aiming system used by professional snooker players.

Here's two great videos, full of aiming gems, that describe the "Back of ball" technique:

Primer:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mL3NOn-A9Bs

And especially this one -- a continuation -- that shows common mistakes in implementing the "Back of ball" aiming technique:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kLjSlHr38dc

Hope this is helpful!
-Sean

 

[greyghost]

stop talking about the ghosts balls....is uncooth lmfao

I don't care what people use.....i never used ghost ball in my life....OBCP and white rail lines are what i always saw.

People develop things and there aint nothing wrong with charging an entry to learn it.

Nothing good in life is free......it may not cost money but it still aint free

You don't see people griping that Bob Byrnes books cost money do ya?

If someone put in the work to develop something and doesn't give it away for free then they get their pannies all in a ruff.

Like we owe them something? WTF?

Night b/f last......

Hey keeb when you gonna teach me to bank and stuff brother, hell you taught Dusty..........when are you going to work with me?

My reply: When you show up to the house for private lessons, i been hearing lots of talk for 2 years, and see no walk.

AWEEEEE MAN really you gonna charge me? You didn't charge dusty? WTF

My reply: WATCH YOU MOUTH! I moved here and didn't have not one dam friend, he took a shine to me and I gave me a place to stay for 3-4 months. So I worked him, I made him run laps. I spoke, he listened, he practiced.....he wins.

You got a job?

Yup

what do you do?

oh I work at centennial........

do you give away free services?

HELL NO

Neither do I homie.

How long you been playing?

4 years.......and I'm a 4/5sp I started same time a dusty about.......

How much money have you spent on going out to play pool?

a sh*t load!!!

So you can spend a butt load of cash on getting drunk, on cues, accessories, BLA BLA BLA.......and you can complain about how your games not improving, but you want to get better. But you refuse to invest $20 to get some proper insight and help you progress correctly? See that $20 stays with you forever......that budweiser costs 3.50/per and you drink it and then piss it out tomorrow.

So either you actually do not want to learn anything or you have not the self respect to want to better your self you just like to talk about it........

But i am never going to take my time to better you just for you boo boo.......

Too much time, too many years, wayyyy too much hard work for any of us that have worked and still do work our tails off.....for you just to walk up and take it.



Point is everyone wants to learn but no one wants to have to work for it....they just want you to give it to them direct download to the brain on a silver platter.......i have 0 respect for these people. For they are free loaders.

WHO MADE YOU THE KING OF ENGLAND?





Now the nit that was complaining that i wasn't going to bless him with my pope staff for free........he beat his opponent in the tournament 5-0.....and that fella just started playing......

Guess what he watched me put a 4 pack on the nit........and he watched me play all night......he didn't know it but i was watching him watch me....i was interested to see how interested this kid was for realzies.....

I'll be damed if the kid aint got me working with him now......I told him there aint not one short cut, you work with me and I'll work with you and we will get you where you want to be together.

I can't wait for about 12 months to pass and that kid is doing just like the last little horsey i taught to trott......that NIT is gonna be fuming when he's the one getting beat 5-0

sad thing is tho....it wont help the nit not one bit........his play is his fault, and his mentality is his fault.

I'm not obligated to do what you want me to do. You want what I have then you step to me son, I don't step to you.

This aint how the world works and If you think it does then you got alot to learn in life and a long an winding road ahead of you...


Stan let me know when that DVD is ready and I'll buy one. I don't know pro one but I would love to learn it. I love to learn anything worth wile in this sport and I don't mind paying. Like me and more and more years you and others have put alot of passion and dedication into these things......price should be DOUBLE.

Next trip to Tulsa I'm stopping by to see Randy over in dallas to get down with the SAME AIM......i was explained it roughly but am going to spend my money wisely and go straight to the honey hole.

I want to know as much as I can, not only for my pleasure and enjoyment but for my students as well. I post up my cash and time, so that these people have the opportunity to also learn as much as they can or want to.

Just like doctors and teachers always take classes through their careers to stay updated.......this is no diff.

Sold a guy one of my customs I made last night. Spent $400 on it.

I gave him 2hrs private lessons on the house, and 20% off private lessons for 4 months.....%20 off for one month for every 100 he spent with me.

Asked him if he thought that was fair?

FAIR......DUDE I'M STEALING!!!:thumbup:

smiled so hard almost broke my teeth

I love working with people, very few things bring me more pleasure....but they got to be willing to work with you


-Grey Ghost-

 

[BRKNRUN]

I don't care what people use.....i never used ghost ball in my life....OBCP and white rail lines are what i always saw.

People develop things and there aint nothing wrong with charging an entry to learn it.

Nothing good in life is free......it may not cost money but it still aint free

You don't see people griping that Bob Byrnes books cost money do ya?

If someone put in the work to develop something and doesn't give it away for free then they get their pannies all in a ruff.

Like we owe them something? WTF?

Night b/f last......

Hey keeb when you gonna teach me to bank and stuff brother, hell you taught Dusty..........when are you going to work with me?

My reply: When you show up to the house for private lessons, i been hearing lots of talk for 2 years, and see no walk.

AWEEEEE MAN really you gonna charge me? You didn't charge dusty? WTF

My reply: WATCH YOU MOUTH! I moved here and didn't have not one dam friend, he took a shine to me and I gave me a place to stay for 3-4 months. So I worked him, I made him run laps. I spoke, he listened, he practiced.....he wins.

You got a job?

Yup

what do you do?

oh I work at centennial........

do you give away free services?

HELL NO

Neither do I homie.

How long you been playing?

4 years.......and I'm a 4/5sp I started same time a dusty about.......

How much money have you spent on going out to play pool?

a sh*t load!!!

So you can spend a butt load of cash on getting drunk, on cues, accessories, BLA BLA BLA.......and you can complain about how your games not improving, but you want to get better. But you refuse to invest $20 to get some proper insight and help you progress correctly? See that $20 stays with you forever......that budweiser costs 3.50/per and you drink it and then piss it out tomorrow.

So either you actually do not want to learn anything or you have not the self respect to want to better your self you just like to talk about it........

But i am never going to take my time to better you just for you boo boo.......

Too much time, too many years, wayyyy too much hard work for any of us that have worked and still do work our tails off.....for you just to walk up and take it.



Point is everyone wants to learn but no one wants to have to work for it....they just want you to give it to them direct download to the brain on a silver platter.......i have 0 respect for these people. For they are free loaders.

WHO MADE YOU THE KING OF ENGLAND?





Now the nit that was complaining that i wasn't going to bless him with my pope staff for free........he beat his opponent in the tournament 5-0.....and that fella just started playing......

Guess what he watched me put a 4 pack on the nit........and he watched me play all night......he didn't know it but i was watching him watch me....i was interested to see how interested this kid was for realzies.....

I'll be damed if the kid aint got me working with him now......I told him there aint not one short cut, you work with me and I'll work with you and we will get you where you want to be together.

I can't wait for about 12 months to pass and that kid is doing just like the last little horsey i taught to trott......that NIT is gonna be fuming when he's the one getting beat 5-0

sad thing is tho....it wont help the nit not one bit........his play is his fault, and his mentality is his fault.

I'm not obligated to do what you want me to do. You want what I have then you step to me son, I don't step to you.

This aint how the world works and If you think it does then you got alot to learn in life and a long an winding road ahead of you...


Stan let me know when that DVD is ready and I'll buy one. I don't know pro one but I would love to learn it. I love to learn anything worth wile in this sport and I don't mind paying. Like me and more and more years you and others have put alot of passion and dedication into these things......price should be DOUBLE.

Next trip to Tulsa I'm stopping by to see Randy over in dallas to get down with the SAME AIM......i was explained it roughly but am going to spend my money wisely and go straight to the honey hole.

I want to know as much as I can, not only for my pleasure and enjoyment but for my students as well. I post up my cash and time, so that these people have the opportunity to also learn as much as they can or want to.

Just like doctors and teachers always take classes through their careers to stay updated.......this is no diff.

Sold a guy one of my customs I made last night. Spent $400 on it.

I gave him 2hrs private lessons on the house, and 20% off private lessons for 4 months.....%20 off for one month for every 100 he spent with me.

Asked him if he thought that was fair?

FAIR......DUDE I'M STEALING!!!:thumbup:

smiled so hard almost broke my teeth

I love working with people, very few things bring me more pleasure....but they got to be willing to work with you


-Grey Ghost-

Hmmmm....I thought this was a discussion board...not an advertising board...Proper marketing (I thought) for this board was done via the banner ads in the top right corner.

Those people are "paying" for advertising....You seem to be knocking someone who comes on here in search of "sharing" pool information yet you don't knock the guys that want to get "free advertising"???

Who is really the freeloader?

I have paid for books, I have paid for videos, I have paid for table time, I would even pay for lessons if I could afford the cost and thought it was going to improve my game.

But again...I "thought" this board was meant for openly sharing pool theory of all types.

I did not know it had changed to be a "free marketing" board.

Last I checked...The owner of this web site was trying to make a living as well.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[BRKNRUN]

Why didn't you say anything about Jay, Tom, or Freddie selling their books? Or Gene with his aiming system, or anyone else selling stuff on here, such as break racks, gloves, live streams, ect.? Why are you singling out CTE, when Stan isn't even the one pushing his DVD, others are that won't receive a dime from it's sales.

You are right...I should not have singled out CTE...perhaps it was just the straw that broke the camels back.

Perhaps the (why) is probably becuase those threads did not get near as much exposure....and most are not topics of pool theory.

CTE seems to be the hot topic of discussion for pool theory......yet nobody seems to want to talk about it...It is ok to explain every detail of all of the GB methods..or kicking methods, banking methods, pattern play,....yet it is "taboo" to explain any "detail" about how to apply CTE.

Don't go so far as to say that Stan is not pushing the DVD....Just look at most of his posts.....

BTW....I bought Jay's book....Don't know what Tom was pushing, Already feel like I have a good handle on how to bank, already know sighting methods learned from Don Rose, would rather break the actual balls to see the spread, can't watch live streams for very long without wanting to just get up and play.

I guess it is time to just be done sharing any pool theory that I have...(not that anyone really cared...or got much from it anyway)...I guess I will just start saying...buy this book or buy that DVD if you want to know.

I like to read and discuss about pool theory.....if that is not going to happen...I am wasting my time here.

 

[whitewolf]

The problem is your inability to be objective and your use of AzB as your personal therapy session. Everything about the topic of aiming is personal with you. You get your feelings hurt over your religious devotion to CTE so you attack what you consider CTE's "nemesis" - ghost ball.

I don't care about ghost ball; I just think you're incapable of anything but worship or attack, and this thread is your little attention-getting foot-stamping tantrum for being "disrespected" regarding CTE. Here's a hint: your aiming views are disrespected because they're naive, inaccurate and hopelessly biased, and because you can't keep your childish emotions in check when they're rightfully dismissed.


Your "challenge" of ghost ball is no more effective or meaningful than your "defense" of CTE. You're just acting out, as usual. AzB's resident brat.

pj
chgo

You took the words right out of my mouth.

The ghost ball theory HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CENTER OF THE BALLS, and thus all of this analysis bullcrap is RIDICULOUS. It is SIMPLY placing the cue ball at a position which knocks the object ball into the hole.

One can take that CTE crap to the toilet when trying to play a combo, especially a tough combo. I consider myself a very good combo player and I do it by using a double ghost ball theory. You just find the ghost ball on the ball to be potted and work your way backwards. Simple as pie. All feel one might say.

SIMPLE is better. JB Cases' analysis looks like a Dr. Dave experiment gone awry, or a wannabe Dr. Dave student who comes up with some laughable insight.

You left brained guys WILL NEVER LEARN HOW TO SHOOT POOL. One suggestion, use your right side of the brain and shoot by feel. The mind is a great tool for simplifying things. Let the force be with you.

 

[JB Cases]

The problem is your inability to be objective and your use of AzB as your personal therapy session. Everything about the topic of aiming is personal with you. You get your feelings hurt over your religious devotion to CTE so you attack what you consider CTE's "nemesis" - ghost ball.

Who said I have to be objective? I find CTE/Hal's systems to be game changing methods of playing pool. I have wondered for a LONG time why they are such and why Ghost Ball fails not only me but others.

I don't consider GB to be CTE's nemesis. Maybe you should quit trying to be my pool therapist and stop posting what you think I think.

I do find your choice of words interesting though. Do you mean to say that the Ghost Ball method is somehow not open to discussion? Why? Because you can diagram it and the diagrams are geometrically correct?

I don't care about ghost ball; I just think you're incapable of anything but worship or attack, and this thread is your little attention-getting foot-stamping tantrum for being "disrespected" regarding CTE. Here's a hint: your aiming views are disrespected because they're naive, inaccurate and hopelessly biased, and because you can't keep your childish emotions in check when they're rightfully dismissed.

I see. You don't care about the topic. Then why are you in this thread? You just want to lecture me and share your thoughts about what my possible motivations are. That's helpful. And who made you the arbiter of mood levels?

You have been completely objective all these years on these topics right?

This thread is to discuss MY idea of why GB is easy to understand but in fact hard to master, especially if one follows Dave Alciatore's advice on how to use GB. No tantrums involved but I think that your contributions are looking like an emotional outburst, especially in light of your statement that you don't care about the topic of discussion.

Your "challenge" of ghost ball is no more effective or meaningful than your "defense" of CTE. You're just acting out, as usual. AzB's resident brat.

You think? Well then I guess the other people in the thread who are discussing the concept I put forth can just pack it in because Pat Johnson told them their opinions are not meaningful either. And name calling? Really? And you accuse me of being emotional and throwing tantrums?

 

[JB Cases]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

The ghost ball theory HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CENTER OF THE BALLS, and thus all of this analysis bullcrap is RIDICULOUS. It is SIMPLY placing the cue ball at a position which knocks the object ball into the hole.

One can take that CTE crap to the toilet when trying to play a combo, especially a tough combo. I consider myself a very good combo player and I do it by using a double ghost ball theory. You just find the ghost ball on the ball to be potted and work your way backwards. Simple as pie. All feel one might say.

SIMPLE is better. JB Cases' analysis looks like a Dr. Dave experiment gone awry, or a wannabe Dr. Dave student who comes up with some laughable insight.

You left brained guys WILL NEVER LEARN HOW TO SHOOT POOL. One suggestion, use your right side of the brain and shoot by feel. The mind is a great tool for simplifying things. Let the force be with you.

A double Ghost Ball theory? So now we another version of GB to add to the mix.

What's funny is that I started the thread based off of Dave Alciatore's instructions on how to USE GB, where HE said that GB is used by finding the "spot on the felt where the center of the Ghost Ball would be".

I though that this isn't a very good way to use GB and thought up my experiment based on that. I can repeat it later on the table to back up my concept.

On another note though, tonight something awesome happened. A young Chinese girl in the pool room learned CTE through watching and imiatating what I was showing her. Something that was even beyond Pat Johnson's capabilities.

It was a beautiful thing to see this aspiring player with solid fundamentals lock onto a new way of seeing the shot. Watching her pound the back of the pockets after being shown the CTE method for five minutes was pure joy.

The only reason I even showed her was because I was sick of watching her miss shots while trying to use GB Dave's way. To me telling people to estimate the GB center is a poison.

So no matter what Pat or you or anyone says you can't take away that CTE works. And it's my opinion that it's millions times better than GB. And stories like this one where a player open-mindedly learns CTE and immediately sees great results are things that you can never have and never diminish.

I can always go back to GB but as long as you don't learn it you can never step up to CTE. So you may be great with GB and if you are then I am truly, TRULY happy for you. Because all any of us want is to run out. So I am not knocking GB as a concept. I am knocking the idea that it's so easy that anyone can make it work perfectly to be the best player they can be. I disagree with that and fully believe that GB holds a lot of people back, myself included.

And the reason is because it relies on a lot of estimation.

 

[JB Cases]

You are right...I should not have singled out CTE...perhaps it was just the straw that broke the camels back.

Perhaps the (why) is probably becuase those threads did not get near as much exposure....and most are not topics of pool theory.

CTE seems to be the hot topic of discussion for pool theory......yet nobody seems to want to talk about it...It is ok to explain every detail of all of the GB methods..or kicking methods, banking methods, pattern play,....yet it is "taboo" to explain any "detail" about how to apply CTE.

Don't go so far as to say that Stan is not pushing the DVD....Just look at most of his posts.....

BTW....I bought Jay's book....Don't know what Tom was pushing, Already feel like I have a good handle on how to bank, already know sighting methods learned from Don Rose, would rather break the actual balls to see the spread, can't watch live streams for very long without wanting to just get up and play.

I guess it is time to just be done sharing any pool theory that I have...(not that anyone really cared...or got much from it anyway)...I guess I will just start saying...buy this book or buy that DVD if you want to know.

I like to read and discuss about pool theory.....if that is not going to happen...I am wasting my time here.

I like discussing pool theory too. What I don't like is when people discount personal experience and then label me as a religious kook when I don't bow to their demands to detail my mechanics to the millimeter. I don't like trying to discuss CTE and getting constantly clubbed with GB.

Let me put this another way.

IF I had been in the Hal Houle aiming system discussions on RSB BEFORE meeting Hal then I probably would have been on the skeptic's side.

Why?

Because I would have demanded diagrams and instructions. After all that's how I learned Ghost Ball from Robert Byrne's book. So if this guy Hal Houle has a system then he damn sure better have some paperwork to prove it works.

So I would have been skeptical of Hal's non standard aiming systems and defensive of Ghost Ball. BUT if given the chance to meet Hal and learn from him I would have JUMPED at that chance. Because I am the kind of person who can be against something but when presented with new information I am willing to change my mind if the information checks out.

I welcome correction on this but to my mind Pat Johnson, Dave Alciatore, Mike Page and Lou F. have NEVER tried to get with Hal and learn from him.

I take that back, I think Dave said that he had a conversation with Hal. Be that as it may Dave does not state that on his website nor give up what Hal said to him.

So my point is why all the ridicule?

Why does this topic have to always be filled with emotion and hate?

I bet if I go onto another billiard forum and simply copy the first post in this thread it will just generate conversation about the concept that GB is easy to learn and hard to use reliably.

I found that your religious allegory was humorous but also fanning the flames a bit. What I find hugely distasteful is Dave Alciatore adding it to the CTE page on his site. He is using his bully pulpit to show that he thinks CTE is really nothing more than self-hynosis and that because the users of CTE are all self-deluding then they substitute "faith" for reason.

Dave could be busting myths as he has done with what happens to a ball when it goes into the rubber. He could look deeper into Ghost Ball in practice vs. Ghost Ball in theory.

I don't know about you but I have learned in this thread already a couple new ways to look at Ghost Ball. Maybe ways to help me improve my own use of it and find a higher degree of accuracy. Maybe some of these methods are textbook (Robert Byrne) Ghost Ball but instead variations that have helped others to use the concept in a practical way.

So for me it's been helpful already. All this discussion about CTE, Hal etc... has made me think about what aiming is, how it's approached and why the results are inconsistent. Everyone has an opinion and I have mine and we should all be able to discuss them like adults.

The difference however is that if you said you just learned GB and you are making monster shots then NO ONE would question your personal testimony. No one would say that GB's reliance on a phantom ball means that you must be estimating using GB and then you are subconsciously adjusting to the right line.

But in fact that's what using GB is for the most part in my opinion because the "ball" does not exist. Which is to say that you can use GB to get in the ball park and then fine tune the aim to the right line allowing your feel and sense of space to take over. However it's just as valid for someone else to NOT be imagining the GB in the right space and be thinking that they are dead on and be missing because of it.

But IF they were to post that then they would be laughed off the forum. Why? Because Ghost Ball is somehow off limits if anyone wants to post that they aren't able to use it and make monster shots. The reason that anyone would ever miss when using Ghost Ball cannot be because they "see" the ball in the wrong place, thus seeing the contact point in the wrong place etc.... no it has to be their stroke or stance or some other reason.......

Yet when someone posts that they learned CTE and they are making monster shots then SOME people ridicule them, call them delusional, call them religious kooks, and and and - all because they can't say for sure HOW the method works.

So this is my fundamental problem with all these discussions. I think that all of them should be approached with an open mind and everyone who cares to join in the discussion should use all available means to have the same information, which means that people who are skeptical of CTE should learn it and then report back.

People who know CTE are all well grounded in GB, I am sure of that. Whether they can use it and be consistent players is another topic.

So again, my topic for discussion is "Why Ghost Ball Aiming Fails You" ( or me, or not)

 

[JB Cases]

Stan Shuffet....Very respected teacher of pool...has a son that is a world beater at pool....Has others say what a great teacher of pool he is.....I ask this...what has he actually contributed on this board of a technical nature? How is this any different than "IMSHARA"

I for one would love to know what input Stan has regarding any CTE discussions....but I guarantee it won't happen on this board....and unfortunatley I am not one of the "in the loop" people that get the information.....aparantly you are...since you have droped the "wouldn't you like to know" line a few times to GMT.

Frankly...I am tired of the CTE carrot that is being dangled on this board....A group that claimes how great the system is...puts out conflicting information regarding the system...(even has some retracted because now it is "wrong) then says...if you want to know you have to buy this DVD....Then basically goes Nah-nah, nah-nah, nah-naaaaah....I know how it works and you don't.

Then on top of all that.....We have a known top shooter that comes on here and says nothing more than...."hey"...Is what I am doing CTE? I want to learn......Within an hour we have a poster (that I think has seen the DVD) reply with PM sent....and then Stan saying he can explain it to him in short order....No referral to a DVD?????

It is all a tease....and on because it is on this board..it is a real turn off....I would rather see the Banner Ad...click on it and see the "marketing" for CTE that way......I would probably buy it.

I feel CTE should either be fully discussed on this board or not discussed at all....All of the "inbetween" stuff about CTE is makeing me feel disrespected and is tainting my desire to study the method.

Yes.....you hit a sore spot

Regarding Stan I am sure he probably would not be here or in the CTE discussions if people hadn't called him a snake-oil salesman.

I could say the same thing about people who come and "sell" without EVER being a part of the community.

I do welcome people who know something about the subject to participate in discussions about that subject even if they don't participate elsewhere on the board.

I, for one, did NOT know that Stan was teaching CTE until it was brought up on this board. Made me look a little closer at Landon's game.

For what it's worth although I really would have preferred to have had all these discussions without the name calling and condescension (on both sides) I do feel good that out of it is coming a video that is probably the best we can get at the moment which both defines CTE and instructs as to how to apply it.

If nothing else at least that will exist and should go somewhat towards answering your questions.