Why join the UPA?

[ChalksBilliards]

Manly, so you are affected financially, explain how if you would.

Are you a promoter or player? Unless you explain specifically how the UPA affects you, then no one will take what you say seriously. It looks to me like you are just some one who has nothing better to do than to try and bad mouth the efforts of people who have the balls to get out there and try and make a difference.

 

[manlyshot]

Are you a promoter or player? Unless you explain specifically how the UPA affects you, then no one will take what you say seriously. It looks to me like you are just some one who has nothing better to do than to try and bad mouth the efforts of people who have the balls to get out there and try and make a difference.

Originally posted by Darren S.
Why should the UPA take time to answer your questions? You get the answers, you don't like the answers and just criticize more. You are like a democrat who hates the Republican or vice versa. You have already determined that you don't like the UPA. If any organization spent their time on guys like you they would only be wasting their time and energy.

ChalksBilliards, you and Darren S. display here in this forum exactly the personality of the UPA. I initially contacted the UPA's website, which offered absolutely NO RESPONSE. But the UPA is hearing me now with my recent posts here at AzBilliards. They at least had the good sense to remove the L.A. tournament that they had listed on their so-called "tour." Everybody knows why the L.A. tournament was cancelled, especially after the recent experience of independent promoters like Alexandra Dyer and Dennis Wilson.

Since you guys are only bottle-washers and follow the Pied Piper, why not ask your leader step out from behind the curtain and prove me wrong.

I stepped onto the soap box and told the readers of this forum what the UPA was doing. I think the pool public should be aware of the UPA's current business practices and how it is affecting existing pool players, independent promoters, and sponsors, not to mention the future of men's pool.

From its very inception, the UPA, or should I really say Charlie Williams, should have presented the UPA mission to the public and asked for support and suggestions and welcomed input from the pool world to promote a men's tour.

Instead, the UPA has illegally discriminated against Frankie, Troy, Earl, Keith, and Corey by creating a category called "touring pros" and placed these guys in that category as soon as the UPA realized they weren't joining the union, segregating them, because they refused to sign the UPA legally binding contract prepared by UPA attorneys which only benefits the UPA and could cause legal atrocities to the pool player. Nice organization, this UPA, with their current business practices.

Again, speak to the manufacturers, industry executives, vendors, cue repairmen, sponsors, and pool players, especially ones who have been discriminated against, and you will hear the truth and see the real UPA. The pool industry is suffering, and now here comes the UPA machine trying to get blood from a turnip.

I'm confident the UPA will self-destruct the way it currently does business because the public will not support a UPA the way it is currently operating, and without their support, the UPA will go nowhere. But don't take it from me, let's watch the future of the UPA and see how it progresses.

ManlyShot

 

[manlyshot]

Manlyshot, it seems to me that the definition is obvious. One is a member of the UPA and another is not. What's the problem?

Let me spell it out for you, Darren S. I have been waiting to hear the UPA definition.

If I sign the UPA contract, I am a UPA touring pro and can earn a living and compete in any UPA-sanctioned event.

If I am Joe Blow from New Orleans, don't want to become a UPA member and sign a contract, but I am willing to pay a one-time $25 tax to the UPA, I can earn a living and compete in any UPA-sanctioned event.

If I am Corey Deuel, don't want to become a UPA member and sign a contract, I am a "touring pro," not a "UPA touring pro," and discriminated against which prevents me from earning a living and competing in any UPA-sanctioned event.

Joe Blow can attend a UPA-sanctioned tournament, but Corey Deuel cannot.

"UPA touring pros" are UPA members. "Touring pros" is the category that was created by the UPA for Corey, Earl, Keith, Troy, and Frankie.

I don't know what country you live in, Darren S., but in the United States of America, we call it discrimination.

ManlyShot

 

[cardiac kid]

Why Join the UPA?

Manlyshot,

I think you are also missing the point you are trying to make! Chalk and/or Darren are on to something. I've read your posts and others complaining about the UPA for months. Not once have I seen you make a concrete suggestion. You asked why they did not post thier financial statement. You complain about them asking certain players to either join or not play in THEIR sanctioned tournaments. You complain about Charlie to no end. What do you want? Is no governing body better than the UPA? Please tell me what the BCA, APA or Valley has done for the "pros" in our game?

I paid my $100. I consider it to be a donation to the sport of pocket billiards. I intend to continue my membership when it comes due next year. I am also a member of the BCA, the CNY 9 Ball Tour, the Viking Tour, the NEPT and the Joss. Each of those tours has a "fee" to either join for the year or play in a single tournament. Why can't the UPA ask non-members to pay a $25 "fee" to play in their events? If I were a promoter, I want the very best in the game to play in my event. If you live in the immediate area and wish to play, the UPA grants a local player exemption. I feel its wrong. I look at it as a greens fee. All non-members should pay it regardless of the location of their residence.

Please don't tell me about discrimination and law suits. Thats a great way to really set our game back. Lots of posters compare billiards to golf. If a country club decided to hold a charity event and asked the top 128 golfers in the world to attend, how many do you think would show up? If you guessed none, you would be correct. The PGA has a strangle hold on their member players. You play in a minimum number of their events and only their events or else! The easy way to get the best is to sanction with the PGA! Tennis is no different or bowling!

I see good things and bad in each tour. I spend lots of time both praising and suggesting to each tour director in person. Why don't you volunteer to be an unpaid member of the UPA Board of Directors? Let them hear your complaints first hand. If you have better ideas, speak up or as they say, forever hold your piece!

 

[manlyshot]

Re: Why Join the UPA?

Why can't the UPA ask non-members to pay a $25 "fee" to play in their events?

Let's reverse the question. Why can't Corey, Troy, Earl, Keith, and Frankie pay a $25 "fee" to play in their events?

Please don't tell me about discrimination and law suits. The PGA has a strangle hold on their member players. You play in a minimum number of their events and only their events or else!

The current economic climate in our pool world cannot be compared to that of the PGA, and the UPA shouldn't continue to reach within our pool world to deepen its pockets and ban Earl Strickland, Troy Frank, Keith McCready, Frankie Hernandez, Corey Deuel, and anybody else who doesn't want to belong to Charlie's union.


[QUOTEOriginally posted by cardiac kid
Why don't you volunteer to be an unpaid member of the UPA Board of Directors? Let them hear your complaints first hand. If you have better ideas, speak up or as they say, forever hold your piece! [/QUOTE]

Don't you remember, cardiac kid? The UPA only wants to deal with pool players who want to join the union and sponsors who want to deepen their pockets. Their hundreds of phone calls a day prevents them from responding to inquiries weeks at a time.

I agree with your philosophy, cardiac kid, but the UPA ain't going to get you there with its current practice of discrimination, questionable business practices, and beating up independent promoters. And every time the UPA places a stop sign in front of me, I will continue to strive towards a remedy. Then I will forever hold my piece.

ManlyShot

 

[cardiac kid]

Manlyshot,

Again I ask why you don't volunteer to join the UPA board of directors? If money is a problem, I will gladly pay your membership so you can participate with the BOD. If you choose only to play (a conflict of interest, correct?) all bets are off.

Why can't they play? Ask Tiger if he could play a PGA event without joining the organization. If Efren, Jose, Johnny, Busti and others chose to join, why can't they? Sponcors? Each of the previously mentioned players also have sponcors and they joined! Are they contracted to the UPA? It sure seems like it!

Don't compare us to the PGA? Your kidding right? How did they get to the position of prominence? The same way the UPA is trying to start now. If your chosen players don't compete and win against the other top players, their sponcors might start wondering if their investment is worth it. Incidently, some of the players I mentioned are sponcored by the same people as the players you mentioned. How is that possible?

Wrong, wrong, wrong! One of our local players was invited to join the BOD. He is a wonderful, knowledgeable business person. His specialty is computers and works for a nationwide company in that function. Where does that make him qualified to sit on the BOD? Perhaps it is his love of the game of pool. Perhaps his connections in the business world. Perhaps it is his ideas that got him the invite! Stop the excuses. Stop complaining. Do something positive!

 

[manlyshot]

Again I ask why you don't volunteer to join the UPA board of directors? If money is a problem, I will gladly pay your membership so you can participate with the BOD. If you choose only to play (a conflict of interest, correct?) all bets are off.

Money ain't the problem, but you are indeed a kind soul to even offer. If I am a "touring pro," cardiac kid, and I want to play in a UPA-sanctioned event and pay $25, I have been banned by Charlie Williams. I have been discriminated against and need to pursue a remedy.

If I am an independent tournament promoter, I do not want to invest my time and money only to have Charlie Williams require $1,500 from me, so he can assume complete control of my tournament, which rules I can use, dictate to me who is allowed to play and who can't play, and risk losing vendors, spectators, and the like.

Until the UPA can present a tour with a package benefetting its "union" members, they offer nothing. It isn't up to me to come up with the answers for the UPA. I am not the one who started this nightmare. But it is up to me to stand up to the UPA when they place the next stop sign in front of me.

ManlyShot

 

[ChalksBilliards]

Manlyshot, it is obvious from your refusal to answer a simple question i.e promoter or player, that you are nothing more than just another key board cowboy who takes his shots anonymously. Your opinions and meanderings are of no consequence and are not worthy of consideration.

Your only goal is to bad mouth the only shot that men's pool has right now, your picking on insignificant issues only shows your true motiviations. You have a personal grudge against Charlie Williams and that is transparent for all to see.

If I were Charlie, I would have my lawyers go through everyone of your posts, and look for a libel case.

 

[allenVA]

Go UPA!

I have followed Manlyslots attacks on the UPA and Charlie Williams.

Sounds like another pool player complaining and whining with no solution or initiative to help. The only people I see trying to help the sport is the UPA and its leader Charlie Williams. I agree with Chalk and Darren that at least this kids "got balls" .

I am curious who Manly slot is and why he hates Williams so much. Did he beat you out of some money ?LOL

I aslo agree with Darren and ChalkBilliards that Manly and everyone else with a gripe should get the facts straight first.
By the way, I called and found out that the UPA has never charged a sanctioning fee EVER. That means that out of the 10 or 12 events they've had, not once did a promoter have to pay $1500, nor do they ask of that currently.

Manly, you've brought that up like GOd knows how many times. Meanwhile, you were completely WRONG!

Geez Man, get the facts straight. Or better yet, get to another topic because it doesnt seem anyone's on your side here.

I hope the UPA succeeds because if they dont, who knows when another association will come along.

 

[manlyshot]

Well, at least we are all talking in the same thread, and I welcome any comments from UPA members in an effort to gain more information because the UPA website is nonresponsive.

The $1,500 fee to independent promoters wasn't in effect at the time of Big Apple and Capital City Classic. This could have occurred at the same time the new "touring pros" category was created to ban pool players, such as Corey Deuel, Frankie Hernandez, Troy Frank, Keith McCready, and Earl Strickland, who don't want join the UPA. Discrimination in its ugliest form.

I may stand alone in this thread with UPA union members, first-time posters, and interested pool enthusiasts with my opinion, but anyone who has talked to manufacturers, industry representatives, vendors, banned pool players, ex-UPA members, and sponsors would get a better understanding on the current state of affairs.

At the current time, the UPA is targeting pool players and independent promoters to advance their platform. If you think this is going to help the UPA get a men's tour and improve the revenues for pool players who choose to be UPA members, then, by all means, stand by your man.

Charlie Williams is a pool player, in the upper echelon of the lot, and so are the pool players that are banned from playing in UPA events. He is not a seasoned veteran, and to be the self-appointed president of the UPA and create rules that hurt the very folks who are already suffering from the very start of the UPA inception is absolutely disgusting.

The UPA legally binding contract reminds me of Don King.

Since the UPA finally updated their website after this thread on AzBilliards, my voice is being heard, and I will continue to disseminate any new developments as they occur. It may be more advantageous and productive for you to tell the readers of this forum positive features about UPA, what the organization is going to do in the future, how the UPA has changed your life and made pool more enjoyable, what new events may be in the making. After all, the name of the thread is "Why Join the UPA?"

Maybe we could start a poll: One, is the UPA a good thing for men's pool? Two, is the UPA hurting men's pool? The only stipulation should be that all voters must have posted at least 10 times before the commencement date of the poll.

ManlyShot

 

[jjinfla]

Manlyshot, As a result of the UPA not allowing certain players to participate in their sanctioned events I sent an e-mail to BD asking them how accurate their BD Power Index can be when it is slanted toward players in the UPA?

Any event that BD uses in the index that is sanctioned by the UPA will now bias the index against Strickland, Deuel and any other person who does not wish to join the UPA because they are prohibited from participating in it.

How fair is that?

Might as well change the name of the Index and call it the UPA power index. Because from now on it sure is not an indicator of all pro players, just the ones who belong to the UPA.

Jake

 

[jjinfla]

Manlyshot,

As for standing up and voicing your opinion against what you perceive as an unjust organization, that is your right. You may be the lone voice, at present, but it places you head and shoulders above all the clones who follow in lock step.

You make many valid points, which I am sure the UPA members might agree with, but they are of the school that says, "make no waves" or "it isn't affecting me" so they just go along in the hopes that somehow everything will be okay. Or they may be among the top dozen or so for whom the UPA is really a benefit. So they pay their dues and remain silent.

Unfortunately, I would venture to guess that the majority of UPA members have no computers, nor do they ever read these message boards, and are probably unaware of anything you are talking about. All they care about is their next match. And will they win enough to carry them through until the next match. They really are not that good enough of a pool player to worry about any royalties that they are signing away because the odds are against them getting any anyway. A prime example of a struggling pool player is the article in Inside Pool about Mike Davis. So they join the UPA, pay their dues, and hope for the best.

And when the real wheeler dealers in the world of pool stay silent and allow this to happen then it shows me what a desperate state the pool world really is in and how desperate the players have become.

What amazes me is that the room owners have knuckled under to the UPA. Why would they go to the expense of running a tournament and then give away all control of it to the UPA? Do Charlie Williams, Johnny Archer, Mika Immonen, etal, really have a following of fans that go to see them play and spend money where the room owner can cover his expenses?

But you know what Manlyshot, I just don't care anymore. Pool is just a game. A game that is going nowhere very fast.

When the UPA first started I thought it was a great idea that would propel pool to the limelight. But lately I have come to believe that it is just a bunch of unorganized thugs trying to make some quick money.

Jake

 

[manlyshot]

And when the real wheeler dealers in the world of pool stay silent and allow this to happen then it shows me what a desperate state the pool world really is in and how desperate the players have become.

Jake, I'm not sure if our paths have crossed, but by the sounds of your posts, you know exactly what's going on, too.

The UPA hasn't bitten the pocket book of the "real wheeler dealers in the world of pool," spectators, and pool enthusiasts, at least not yet. Since its inception, it has targeted pool players and independent promoters, the very people who are suffering the most.

Prospective UPA members, pool players, many who have no legal background whatsoever, in true Don King-like fashion, are required to sign a legally binding contract which only benefits the UPA. Anybody who reads this UPA contract as currently written can see whose interests the contract really serves. It may not affect a Joe Blow from New Orleans, but it certainly could cause huge problems for the likes of a Corey Deuel, Earl Strickland, Frankie Hernandez, Keith McCready, and Troy Frank.

Be assured, though, that the "real wheeler dealers," spectators, pool enthusiasts, vendors, pool players, UPA members, and ex-UPA members may be silent in this thread, for obvious reasons, but as long as the UPA machine continues to chug along, the UPA will place the noose around their own necks.

The storm hasn't concluded yet, but there will be, and always is, a silver lining.

ManlyShot

 

[titbit]

WOW so many people want to bad mouth charlie williams, do any of you guys turn up to these events??? does anyone see how much time this guy puts into these events??? no well i watched the atlanta open and he was there all day every day, he even had to be on the michrophone and anounce his own match, which he did go on to lose.
These upa events are the best thing to come out of US for many years they are cleaning the image of the game up in a big way.
Why dont all you people who sit here and type S!!T all day form your own tour and see how many people turn up too play?? lets see you keep everyone happy all these players that dont play deserve nothing because they dont care about anything but there own backs, if they are so upset and have so much pull in the game of pool why aint they doing somthing about it??? why because there probably out getting drunk smoking pot or playin golf, why dont they from there own tour .
I look forward too seeing all you bad mouthers putting your own tour together and maybe all these high class players who are not willing to put pen to paper because they are bigger then the game will be your board,

 

[manlyshot]

How fair is that?

There is nothing fair about the current business practices of the UPA.

I am actually in favor of initiating a petition, a legally binding document that could be disseminated at fruition to the "real wheeler dealers," pool players, vendors, media, fans, industry organizations, and pool enthusiasts.

ManlyShot

 

[manlyshot]

if they are so upset and have so much pull in the game of pool why aint they doing somthing about it??? why because there probably out getting drunk smoking pot or playin golf, why dont they from there own tour .
I look forward too seeing all you bad mouthers putting your own tour together and maybe all these high class players who are not willing to put pen to paper because they are bigger then the game will be your board,

Titbit (unusual handle causing me to chuckle), the UPA had better create another new rule and start giving drug tests and breathalizers to their members because some of those contracted UPA pool players get drunk, smoke pot, and yes, Titbit, they play golf.

The banned pool players and independent promoters aren't interested in creating a tour, but they are entitled to earn a living.

ManlyShot

 

[cardiac kid]

The banned pool players and independent promoters aren't interested in creating a tour, but they are entitled to earn a living.

Holy cow manlyshot, your finally getting to the point of all your posts. Entitled to earn a living? Says who? None of those poor, helpless, infringed upon guys are "barred" from playing in any tournament except UPA sanctioned events. They have lots of choices. They can even go back to "want to play some cheap nine ball?" that got them noticed in the first place. This morning I went back and looked at the player list from the UPA web site. I really was not aware how foolish (stupid?) some of the top players in the world must have been to sign the UPA contract. Perhaps you should ask Corey and Frankie personally why they didn't sign the contract. Do they have the same sponsor? Is it possible the sponsor told them not to sign? Perhaps you should ask. Perhaps the reason you refuse to tell this board, and the posters who have requested it, your interest in this matter. Perhaps you're the sponsor? We'll guess until you set the record straight.

You also hit on another point. "The banned players and independent promoters aren't interested in creating a tour". You're damn right they aren't. Why should they? Someone else has already taken the chance and look what they got for trying. I may be having another senior moment, but wasn't Don Mackey subjected to the same crap with his organization? Isn't every organization subject to the same destructive crap from the bystanders and "railbirds"? Why do you refuse to get involved? Cut the crap and step forward! Stop making excuses and "stop signs".

"Start a petition"? Please do! I for one, would like to know who you really are! At least then you will have done something, rather than nothing, constructive.

 

[manlyshot]

Entitled to earn a living? Says who? None of those poor, helpless, infringed upon guys are "barred" from playing in any tournament except UPA sanctioned events. They have lots of choices. They can even go back to "want to play some cheap nine ball?" that got them noticed in the first place.

Choices will become few and far between when the UPA makes it impossible for an independent tournament promoter to produce a tournament by threatening non-attendance. The UPA, if they are REALLY interested in advancing their cause, should be helping these guys, not placing stop signs in front of them.

Cardiac Kid, those "poor, helpless, infringed upon guys" are being discriminated against by the UPA. The UPA created a category and placed Corey Deuel, Frankie Hernandez, Keith McCready, Earl Strickland, and Troy Frank in this category, segregating them, but all other pool players in the world can attend. This is DISCRIMINATION.

Originally posted by cardiac kid
Perhaps you should ask Corey and Frankie personally why they didn't sign the contract. Do they have the same sponsor? Is it possible the sponsor told them not to sign? Perhaps you should ask. Perhaps the reason you refuse to tell this board, and the posters who have requested it, your interest in this matter. Perhaps you're the sponsor? We'll guess until you set the record straight.

Corey Deuel and Frankie Hernandez didn't sign the contract because the UPA contract only benefits the UPA and not the pool player.

If you read other posts in this forum, such as the most recent Corey Deuel thread, you will discover who sponsors them, and you will also get to hear another opinion about the UPA.

Originally posted by cardiac kid
I may be having another senior moment, but wasn't Don Mackey subjected to the same crap with his organization? Isn't every organization subject to the same destructive crap from the bystanders and "railbirds"? Why do you refuse to get involved? Cut the crap and step forward! Stop making excuses and "stop signs".

I don't understand the logic here: I am supposed to create an organization to replace the one who practices discrimination and has questionable business practices.

I need to step forward and create my own organization since I am unhappy about the UPA?

I am not against a men's pool organization, but I cannot and will not support one who steps on pool players, such as Frankie Hernandez, Corey Deuel, Keith McCready, Troy Frank, and Earl Strickland to advance their cause.

I am unable to understand why the UPA created this category of "touring pros" for the sole benefit of banning five pool players who would not sign the UPA contract.

You sound like an intelligent and caring person, Cardiac Kid, and for your sake, I hope you reap benefits from your membership in the UPA. I am on the other side of the fence here.

It is imperative that the UPA cease and desist their current business practice of banning Corey, Keith, Troy, Earl, and Frankie. The UPA should be helping independent promoters, not threatening them with non-attendance.

The UPA can't have it both ways. In true Don King fashion, the UPA wants to acquire every good pool player in the world to sign a UPA legally binding contract. All others need not apply.

Originally posted by Cardiac Kid
"Start a petition"? Please do! I for one, would like to know who you really are! At least then you will have done something, rather than nothing, constructive.

If the UPA wants to have a men's tour, that's fine with me, but when the UPA enforces discriminatory and questionable business practices that touch my world, I am not going to roll over and play dead. War is hell.

ManlyShot

 

[jjinfla]

Before I would believe that they all signed the contract I would have to see them. And I would also check to see if parts of the contract were lined through. Maybe some of the top guns never really did sign a contract. Or signed one completely different from the present one. Unless you see the signed contracts you only have the UPA's word that they all signed it, and that all contracts are identical.

I have met Mika and he seems to be a pretty intelligent person. With a fine sponsor. And most likely a savy businessman. And has his own bar in the Philippines. His contract would be the first one I would want to see.

But I see no real big need for a contract at this time anyway. Did the membership have any say about the wording of the contract? Was it presented to the membership for approval? I can see the need of a contract after the UPA, or any Men's organization, reaches the status of the WPBA. But not now when they have nothing to offer.

The first thing the UPA should do, should have done, is set up their own tour. A foundation that they could build from and hang their hat on. But of course getting room owners to allow them to use their rooms now may be a problem. Charlie has allienated many of them. Maybe the next president can turn things around.

And people saying Charlie is a hard worker running around doing everything, announcing matches, playing matches, running the boards, running the raffles (which are probably illegal in the State of Florida - hope Barry doesn't turn him in), paying out the winners, etc, actually shows that he micromanages and doesn't know how to delegate authority. A smart businessman surrounds himself with knowledgeable people that he can trust to do these jobs.

Instead of doing all that work, Charlie should be smoozing with the fans, signing autographs, carrying on small talk with them, and making them happy. Happy fans tell two other people and return. Unhappy fans tell 10-20 people. Charlie should have known that. Or somebody should have told him that simple point.

Jake

 

[manlyshot]

The first thing the UPA should do, should have done, is set up their own tour. A foundation that they could build from and hang their hat on. But of course getting room owners to allow them to use their rooms now may be a problem. Charlie has allienated many of them. Maybe the next president can turn things around.

And people saying Charlie is a hard worker running around doing everything.

Instead of doing all that work, Charlie should be smoozing with the fans, signing autographs, carrying on small talk with them, and making them happy.

Charlie Williams created the UPA, but the current UPA with their Don King-like self-serving boilerplate contracts, questionable business practices, segregating pool players, and putting a stranglehold on independent promoters doesn't present a good image.

Charlie Williams is a non-seasoned veteran who appointed himself president of the UPA, expecting that with this huge undertaking, all pool players will follow the Pied Piper and sign on the dotted line like trained little pigs. For some, this contract doesn't pose any hardships. For others, this contract, as currently written, poses an abundance of hardships to their pool-playing career.

Charlie Williams needs to recuse himself, since he is an existing participant in UPA tournaments, and allow a business-minded person to come in and help the UPA clean up the damage that has already taken place. A seasoned veteran, someone who actually experienced the Don Mackey era, would bring to the table their wisdom and experience, something Charlie Williams is not capable of having at this time in his life.

Charlie Williams is a pool player. Being a pool player doesn't provide the necessary expertise needed to create a men's union.
He is a young man who endeavored to make something positive happen for men's pool. Instead of banning existing pool players and strangleholding independent promoters, the UPA should look elsewhere to further its platform.

If you placed Charlie Williams, Corey Deuel, Earl Strickland, Keith McCready, Troy Frank, and Frankie Hernandez in the same room with potential sponsors, pool enthusiasts, fans, and media, which pool player do you think would generate more support?

Ask the tournament promoters, industry executives, manufacturers, vendors, and sponsors who has the biggest draw, and therein lies the answer. The UPA is only shooting itself in the foot.

ManlyShot