Why look at the Object Ball?

Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This thread aims to critique the backhand (pivot) english method.

We hear lots of advice from champions about looking at the object ball at the time you stike the cueball.

But, according to pivot english theory, the cue ball will travel in a line determined by the positioning of the bridge hand. Even if we hit to the left or right or top or bottom. So what is the point of staring at the object ball once you have set your bridge position?

According to pivot english theory, what can you do to make the ball deviate other than move your bridge hand as you are making the hit. I doubt anyone would recommend that as a habit to get into.

I actually think staring at the object ball is important for very accurate play. I'll let you guys argue this out a little before I give you my reasons why we should look at the object ball, and why the pivot english theory is often an impractical method of allignment.
 
I always lock my eyes on the object ball that I'm attempting to pocket.
 
Colin Colenso said:
But what's the point, once you have set your bridge hand?
Click to expand...

________________________________________________________________

On most shots at impact my eyes are on the OB, but on shots over a ball, where the CB is close to or froze on a rail, on some draw shots and on all break shots my eyes are on the CB. I employ both methods. The greatest cueist of all time, Willie Hoppe hit every shot with his eyes on the CB, but he did not play pool and was a billiards player so that is not a good example, just an example if you have a perfect stroke you do trust, you can close your eyes and shoot. I train a lot of students doing exactly that, making long straight in shots with their eyes closed on impact.

Fast Larry
 
ramdadingdong said:
________________________________________________________________

On most shots at impact my eyes are on the OB, but on shots over a ball, where the CB is close to or froze on a rail, on some draw shots and on all break shots my eyes are on the CB. I employ both methods. The greatest cueist of all time, Willie Hoppe hit every shot with his eyes on the CB, but he did not play pool and was a billiards player so that is not a good example, just an example if you have a perfect stroke you do trust, you can close your eyes and shoot. I train a lot of students doing exactly that, making long straight in shots with their eyes closed on impact.

Fast Larry
Click to expand...

True...I played mostly English billiards growing up, and most shots utilise half-ball hits which do not require as much accuracy of aiming. It is more speed judgment combined with knowing the cue ball deflection angles.

Hoppe's games were a little different, but basically the emphasis was on cue ball accuracy rather than object ball travelling lines.
 
ramdadingdong said:
________________________________________________________________

On most shots at impact my eyes are on the OB, but on shots over a ball, where the CB is close to or froze on a rail, on some draw shots and on all break shots my eyes are on the CB.

Fast Larry
Click to expand...

Same as above. But...if I do not look at the OB last on longer shots, I miss the shot. Reason enuff. No analysis necessary for me.

Laura
 
my instructor buddy, Tom "Dr Cue" Rossman, says it really doesnt matter which one you look at as long as you have "Burning Focus" and are aligned properly, aim properly, and stroke straight.

you can be looking at the blonde in the 4th row, and it shouldnt matter.

sounds logical to me.

DCP
 
I think what really matters is right before the final stroke, you pause looking at the tip and CB, then OB, then pull the trigger.
What matters is to have a "quiet eye" before shooting.
If your eyes are jumping back and forth fast before you shoot, you should miss.
I don't see the reason to look at the cb last or watch the tip make contact with it. If you can't trust your stroke to hit the cb inches away from your head, you're certainly not going to hit the ob where you want to hit it consistently.
Your bridge hand determines where that cb is going to get hit.
So, slow down on the last practice strokes, pause then shoot.
 
Colin Colenso said:
But what's the point, once you have set your bridge hand?
Click to expand...

I used to play snooker for couple of years in the beginning.
Snooker required very accurate aiming and eyes must be locked on the OB to see what exact point of the ball you are aiming at. Playing pool you can miss a little, cheat the pocket etc, in snooker not. I do a few practice strokes while I'm shifting my eyes between CB & OB, when I'm ready I do a little pause on my back swing, lock my eyes on the OB and fire it up.
 
Guys and girls,
I appreciate the feedback, but no one seems to be getting the point.

The point:

If pivoting left or right does not change the line of the cue ball, then why are so many people and experts staring at the object ball as they hit? Presumably after they have established their bridge hand position.

This indicates to me, that we can and do alter the line of the cue ball to some degree by the way that we strike the cue ball, even though our bridge hand remains solid. In fact, I know I can do this and that others are doing this, even though they are not aware of this.

So for the backhand english players who just line up, hold bridge firm, adjust cue to the side and hit, I think they can never achieve high accuracy. Evidence is provided by the fact that I have never heard of a decent snooker player who uses pivot english. And snooker players are generally much more accurate potters than pool players.
 
JoeyInCali said:
What matters is to have a "quiet eye" before shooting.
Click to expand...


I read an article in Golf Digest, about The Quiet Eye. It was about a very interesting study. After a few google searches, I found where some of the same experiments had been performed with billiard players. The results were similar.

I play with greater accuracy looking at the ob last. As mentioned, I have also practiced closing my eyes before taking a shot. I will try shooting a few balls, looking at the cb last just to see what happens. I think that it is most important to stop looking around before the shot, and focus on something. This gives the brain time to process the information it gathered while you were looking back and forth.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Guys and girls,
I appreciate the feedback, but no one seems to be getting the point.
Click to expand...


I get the point, and agree with it to a degree. Pivot or backhand english is not an exact science. There are still other variables that determine where the cueball ends up.

In my experience if a ball has the right angle, is the right distance, and needs to be shot at the right speed, backhand can be a deadly weapon to have in your arsenal.

I would not recommend that anyone shoot every shot with pivot. IMO it has it`s place in the game. If I am facing a shot that requires a very high degree of accuracy, I would prefer to shoot it with no english. If I need to spin the cue ball three rails with inside english, I will use backhand. If I`m shooting a two foot throw shot, I`ll use paralel english.

Mark
 
Colin Colenso said:
This thread aims to critique the backhand (pivot) english method.
,,,,,,,, So what is the point of staring at the object ball once you have set your bridge position?

.
Click to expand...

first of all,,,,you ARE aiming(staring) at the OB when you are lining the shot up. the pivot comes afterwards. and if you have a straight stroke, you should even be able to close your eyes and still pocket a ball.

assuming that it works most of the time,,,"always"...so ginky told me, and that you have adjusted for the proper bridge length/cue shaft/deflection/etc required for an accurate execution of the pivot style,,,,and if your stroke is true, you can let go and pocket the OB. AND EVEN IF YOUR STROKE IS NOT QUITE TRUE, the theory of pivot english should work anyway because the theory says, "if you line up center ball(CB) to your chosen line of aim, and then pick your "english" point on the cb and shoot through the cb, you will make the shot with the intended english." this also means, de facto, that even if you were slightly off on where you want to hit the cb, all will be compensated for and you will STILL make the shot with english, because the point of pivot english is, "you can move the cue tip ANYWHERE(within reason and after properly lining up) on the cb and execute the shot.

of course,,,lining up on center ball is no easy task in the first place, and maybe only the better players with the better stroke and the better idea of where centerball is,,,can do it.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Guys and girls,
I appreciate the feedback, but no one seems to be getting the point.

The point:

If pivoting left or right does not change the line of the cue ball, then why are so many people and experts staring at the object ball as they hit? Presumably after they have established their bridge hand position.

.
Click to expand...

simple.....it is a matter of conditioning. THAT IS HOW PLAYERS SHOOT, and they will not change their hand/eye routine.

when a coach tells a basketball player TO AIM for the back of the rim when he shoots,,,he is NOT telling the player to change his form, nor will the player change his form.
 
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Razor_Blade said:
I get the point, and agree with it to a degree. Pivot or backhand english is not an exact science. There are still other variables that determine where the cueball ends up.


Mark
Click to expand...

Hi Mark,
It's those variable you mention that I am really after.

What variables are there?

How can be adjust for them?

How does staring at the object ball help us to do this? (Once we have set our bridge position)
 
The Solution to this Problem

Bruin did a good job summarizing the natural conclusion of pivot english theory.

These are:

1. Staring at the object ball while setting up centre point allignment is crucial.

2. After that, focusing on the object ball has little purpose other than, it's as good a place as any to rest our eyes.

But, so many experts have told us how important it is for them to hold their eyes on the object ball as they shoot.

Here is Why you should look at the Object Ball
The fact is, all but freak players with robot like allignment, often allign incorrectly and need to make adjustments in their final stroke to actually make the ball. By staring at the ball they kind of second guess, and let their instincts take over to pull or push the cue ball left or right during the follow through as needed.

This is actually how most top players have achieved their highest levels of accuracy.

Here is How It Works
According to the thinking of many pivot english enthusiasts, the line of the cue ball does not alter significantly event with quite large amounts of english of the ball.

But I proffer that we can and in fact most of us already do use a way to deviate the cue ball left and right significantly without hitting far from the position on the cue ball we were alligned to.

What we do, is swoop, or swipe slightly accross the face of the cue ball in a kind of subconscious way to adjust our allignment to make the pot.

Swiping the cue ball slightly, especially on near centre ball hits, significantly changes the direction of the cue ball. Swipe left, the cue ball goes further to the left than if you hit through the ball with a straight cue action. Swipe right and it moves to the right.

The general tendency of most players is to swipe toward a thinner contact on the ball, to increase their consistancy of making the pot. eg. If cutting the object ball to the right of straight, therefore hitting the object ball on the left side. A player will often allign to the shot too thick and use a little swipe to send the cue ball further to the left than his original aim.

Most do not realize they are doing this, but it is nearly a universal habit. Go watch guys play closely, and see how many swipe the cue slightly in this direction.

Why People form this Habit
Most people tend to learn the game making the mistake of alligning to the contact point on the object ball, rather than to the centre of the ghost ball.
See diagram below:
04052804264418.gif

Click here if the image doesn't display.

Because many people allign to thick on the ball in the beginning, they develop a compensatory swipe on the cue ball to achieve the angle required to pot the object ball. Most players are not conscious that they are doing this.

So the reason players have found it crucial to stare at the object ball as they make the final stroke, is that it allows them to make minor, unconscious adjustments by swiping slightly left or right in order to achieve the aim they feel is correct. In essence their feel takes over.

I believe in practice, these minor adjustment are necessary for very accurate play. Very few people can allign so perfectly that they can simply cue robotically straight through the cue ball and pot to high accuracy consistantly without last second minor adjustments by swiping.

To test this, try to pot 50 difficult shots closing you eyes before you shoot, and then try the same shot normally. You'll likely find that you are making slight, but necessary adjustments by slight swiping of the cue.
 
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Colin Colenso said:
Bruin did a good job summarizing the natural conclusion of pivot english theory.

These are:

1. Staring at the object ball while setting up centre point allignment is crucial.

2. After that, focusing on the object ball has little purpose other than, it's as good a place as any to rest our eyes.

But, so many experts have told us how important it is for them to hold their eyes on the object ball as they shoot.

Here is Why you should look at the Object Ball
The fact is, all but freak players with robot like allignment, often allign incorrectly and need to make adjustments in their final stroke to actually make the ball. By staring at the ball they kind of second guess, and let their instincts take over to pull or push the cue ball left or right during the follow through as needed.

This is actually how most top players have achieved their highest levels of accuracy.

Here is How It Works
According to the thinking of many pivot english enthusiasts, the line of the cue ball does not alter significantly event with quite large amounts of english of the ball.

But I proffer that we can and in fact most of us already do use a way to deviate the cue ball left and right significantly without hitting far from the position on the cue ball we were alligned to.

What we do, is swoop, or swipe slightly accross the face of the cue ball in a kind of subconscious way to adjust our allignment to make the pot.

Swiping the cue ball slightly, especially on near centre ball hits, significantly changes the direction of the cue ball. Swipe left, the cue ball goes further to the left than if you hit through the ball with a straight cue action. Swipe right and it moves to the right.

The general tendency of most players is to swipe toward a thinner contact on the ball, to increase their consistancy of making the pot. eg. If cutting the object ball to the right of straight, therefore hitting the object ball on the left side. A player will often allign to the shot too thick and use a little swipe to send the cue ball further to the left than his original aim.

Most do not realize they are doing this, but it is nearly a universal habit. Go watch guys play closely, and see how many swipe the cue slightly in this direction.

Why People form this Habit
Most people tend to learn the game making the mistake of alligning to the contact point on the object ball, rather than to the centre of the ghost ball.
See diagram below:
04052804264418.gif

Click here if the image doesn't display.

Because many people allign to thick on the ball in the beginning, they develop a compensatory swipe on the cue ball to achieve the angle required to pot the object ball. Most players are not conscious that they are doing this.

So the reason players have found it crucial to stare at the object ball as they make the final stroke, is that it allows them to make minor, unconscious adjustments by swiping slightly left or right in order to achieve the aim they feel is correct. In essence their feel takes over.

I believe in practice, these minor adjustment are necessary for very accurate play. Very few people can allign so perfectly that they can simply cue robotically straight through the cue ball and pot to high accuracy consistantly without last second minor adjustments by swiping.

To test this, try to pot 50 difficult shots closing you eyes before you shoot, and then try the same shot normally. You'll likely find that you are making slight, but necessary adjustments by slight swiping of the cue.
Click to expand...


yeah,,,,i noticed that when i cut a ball i hitch my swing to create outside english. i tried to correct this,,,,,,(but i only spent a half hour on it:):):)). when i shot a straight in shot, my stroke was straight, but cutting the ball made me hitch my swing. this drove me friggin" nuts!!!

you don't know how hard i consciously tried to stroke straight on a cut shot. but it was like my forearm had a mind of its own. i gave up in frustration.
 
bruin70 said:
yeah,,,,i noticed that when i cut a ball i hitch my swing to create outside english. i tried to correct this,,,,,,(but i only spent a half hour on it:):):)). when i shot a straight in shot, my stroke was straight, but cutting the ball made me hitch my swing. this drove me friggin" nuts!!!

you don't know how hard i consciously tried to stroke straight on a cut shot. but it was like my forearm had a mind of its own. i gave up in frustration.
Click to expand...

Many players do this, and can learn to swipe, or hitch as you say, with great consistancy. It is like an intuition has developed to help you find the pot angle.

So I find, when I am playing with my highest accuracy, that I am staring at a line through the object ball to the pocket and my swing just naturally adjusts to shoot along the right line. I guess it's from hitting millions of balls.

The three key steps for me are:

1. See the line the obect ball must take to the pocket with this line appearing at the contact point of the ball.

2. Focus on this point while you are moving to position until it feels like you are lined up.

3. Hit the ball still focusing on the contact point on the object ball, with the intention to send the object ball along the path line you have ascertained to be correct.

If you can do these, without letting a hundred other thoughts sneak into your mind, you are on your way to developing a high accuracy potting game.
 
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