Why not a push shot in APA 9-ball ?

[Flettir]

This basically sums up why the APA doesn't allow push outs for handicapped 9-ball divisions. I'm a SL6 and play in one of these 9-ball divisions. The push out would just confuse and frustrate the lower skill level players, and the APA handicapped divisions are catered to the low skill level players. A SL3 player would have no clue about push out strategy.

Don't get me started on the APA. There are many things that they could change but they won't for the reason that most have noted in this thread which is the skill level of most of the players in APA leagues. It would just confuse most of the players.

The weaker player has NO advantage pushing out because most of the weaker players have absolutely no clue what a good push out is. They can only hurt themselves by pushing out.

As you can see I found one thing in common in these quotes. Lack of respect for the ability of the lower player to learn. When SL2-4 first start out they have no idea what a lot of things are in pool. They do not know how to get draw, or what throw is, what deflection is or how to recognize/stop a chicken wing. They just know that they missed. It is up to the higher level more knowledgeable players to help them to learn. That is what the APA is really all about.
The job of the higher SL's is not to put down the lower SL's for what they don't know. The league is designed to help the lower levels to learn what is happening. To explain to them why the cue ball went to the that corner when they thought it should go in just the opposite direction.
I do agree that the pushout would be a big advantage to the higher SL player because they could do a better job of it. I do not agree that the lower SL player could not learn how to do it. Just that their cue ball control is not as accurate. They also do not have the experience to know what really works and does not work in those situations.

BTW, putting anyone down for lack of knowledge is really a put down on yourself for not teaching them.

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[blueridge]

The lack of a push out is a much bigger disadvantage to the high skill level player. I've been screwed many times by this rule. I either make a good break, pocket balls, and hook myself ; or some low skill level players breaks poorly, hooks me, and forces me to shoot a nearly impossible kick shot. I give ball in hand and my opponent, who only needs 19 points to my 46, makes 3 or 4 hangers.

Low skill level players, SL 3 or below, rarely know much of anything about advanced strategy, like good safety play or pushing out or position play. Many SL 4s don't know much about these strategies either. About all they know how to do is bang at the lowest ball on the table. Even if they do know more than I'm giving them credit for, they still don't have the skill to execute these shots. Even if they could comprehend the push out, they likely couldn't execute the shot well enough to have any kind of advantage. You do make a good point that the low skill level player's coach could call a time out and tell him where to push. It could be a big waste of a time out so early in the rack, though. At any rate, it's pretty hard to get any kind of advantage against a better opponent when he has the option to take the shot or give it back to you.

Simply rolling out to a position where the shooter can hit the ball doesn't mean very much. The shot's not going to be given back to the low skill level player unless it's a bad shot. If the higher skill level player takes the shot, he's probablly either going to make the shot, or play a reasonably good safety. The stronger player might even put the weak player in a worse spot than he was before.

The weaker player has NO advantage pushing out because most of the weaker players have absolutely no clue what a good push out is. They can only hurt themselves by pushing out.

I must respectfuly disagree with this logic. A good push out for a lower skilled player would be one where, after executed, he/she could at least make contact with the lowest numbered object ball. I don't think lower skilled players are too ignorant to comprehend how to do this.
If the push by the lower skilled player is given back to them, at least they can hit the intended ball and NOT give up ball in hand to a player who is capable of running the table. If the higher skilled player accepts the shot and shoots a safety thereby locking their opponent up again, at least the lower skill level player is no worse off than they were after the break. I could see where a push shot may be a good alternative for a lower skilled player. And I don't understand this bunk about a lower skill level player not knowing what to do with a push out. Hell, they get TWO time outs per rack. Use one of 'em then if necessary. Geez, any coach worth their salt should be able to tell them where to push out to and/or how. And after a few instructions in the course of several matches, any half-educated person should have the brain-power to comprehend the shot for future use.
Again, just my opinion. I'm not saying I'm totally right, just that this is the way I see it.

Maniac

 

[soulcatcher]

Also, APA cites that they don't have the ability to mark an inning for a push..

If any APA official ever said this I would be suprised. A push out is just a defensive shot. If the incoming player gives it back, it is another defence. Neither took a shot with intention to make a ball, easy call.

The big reason is bcause of the ability of the lower level player to see and exacute a good pushout. The lower level player may understand the wording of the rule, and may even understand in some cases, what is a good push out and what is a bad push out. But can they execute it? Not nearly as well as the higher level player. It would just be another advantage to the higher level player.

Also,part of the reason you play leagues is to learn. By forcing everyone to play the hit, it makes everyone learn how to kick at the object ball, rather than just giving up with a push.

 

[aeoliner]

BTW, putting anyone down for lack of knowledge is really a put down on yourself for not teaching them.

Great ideal to live by. i assume that you uphold what you preach by putting it into action. One of the best feeings in the world is teaching someone a new skill, and watching his or her eyes light up with joy and satisfaction when he or she uses that skill to achieve his or her intended goal. whether or not he or she thank you (or give recognition) for teaching him or her the skill, just knowing that you have helped to better his or her abilities is a reward that to few of us get to experience in our daily lives.

 

[blueridge]

BTW, putting anyone down for lack of knowledge is really a put down on yourself for not teaching them.

Great ideal to live by. i assume that you uphold what you preach by putting it into action. One of the best feeings in the world is teaching someone a new skill, and watching his or her eyes light up with joy and satisfaction when he or she uses that skill to achieve his or her intended goal. whether or not he or she thank you (or give recognition) for teaching him or her the skill, just knowing that you have helped to better his or her abilities is a reward that to few of us get to experience in our daily lives.

I agree, aeoliner. I've taught several league players little things to help improve their game. I helped a SL4 improve her break, I've shown people kicking systems, I've helped people with their stroke, I've done lots of things to help people improve their games.

 

[Neil]

.................

 

[Maniac]

I haven't actually counted, but it seems to be about 50/50 on favoring a push out in APA 9-ball.

Maniac

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

I spoke with my league operators after they brought the pushout in for one session and then took it away... basically said the lower skill levels couldn't understand it.

So if your a APA4 or lower, your basically stupid & sub-human intellectually. Dogs are easier to train than you folks... Sorry to have to inform you of this in this way, but those are the breaks. Please report to the short bus, and secure your helmets folks....

lulz.