Why Object Ball Last?

Okie

Seeker
Silver Member
ATI forum looked a little slow today so I thought I would bug ya'll. :eek:

It seems to me that most players and instructors advocate looking at the object ball before starting the backstroke aka last. But why? What do we gain by doing this?

Thank you!

Ken
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Ken...Because your cue goes where your eyes look. Most people who learn an eye pattern are most comfortable taking their eyes to the OB before starting the final backswing. That's because they then have already "re-acquired" the target. Those that wait until the end of the final backswing, to switch their eyes, have to pause longer, as it takes up to a couple seconds for the eyes to re-acquire the target.

As a golf instructor, did you not tell your students to look at the ball when they struck it? The visualization of where it was going to end up was already done, before the final backswing. Pool works the same way. BTW, this info comes from doctors who understand how the eyes work...how the brain works...how the muscles work...and how they all work together, to produce the ideal result.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 

Okie

Seeker
Silver Member
Ken...Because your cue goes where your eyes look. Most people who learn an eye pattern are most comfortable taking their eyes to the OB before starting the final backswing. That's because they then have already "re-acquired" the target. Those that wait until the end of the final backswing, to switch their eyes, have to pause longer, as it takes up to a couple seconds for the eyes to re-acquire the target.

As a golf instructor, did you not tell your students to look at the ball when they struck it? The visualization of where it was going to end up was already done, before the final backswing. Pool works the same way. BTW, this info comes from doctors who understand how the eyes work...how the brain works...how the muscles work...and how they all work together, to produce the ideal result.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Absolutely! I told my students to see the ball at impact! It is what they were hitting. But looking at the object ball is not looking at what I am hitting. It is more like looking at the flag as I swing a golf club...but that is kinda silly....more like looking at the hole as you putt. This has been done by many players too!
 

Okie

Seeker
Silver Member
Ken...Because your cue goes where your eyes look. Most people who learn an eye pattern are most comfortable taking their eyes to the OB before starting the final backswing. That's because they then have already "re-acquired" the target. Those that wait until the end of the final backswing, to switch their eyes, have to pause longer, as it takes up to a couple seconds for the eyes to re-acquire the target.

As a golf instructor, did you not tell your students to look at the ball when they struck it? The visualization of where it was going to end up was already done, before the final backswing. Pool works the same way. BTW, this info comes from doctors who understand how the eyes work...how the brain works...how the muscles work...and how they all work together, to produce the ideal result.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

More info...

I am mulling over the idea of changing all my focus to the cue ball during the stroke.

Thanks Scott!

Ken
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, some players switch their gaze from the cb to the ob during the back stroke and some switch before they begin their back stroke. Either way is fine.

But back to your original question: It's kind of like throwing a ball where you're looking at the target rather than the ball you're throwing. The only difference is that the cb isn't attached to your cue. But a secure bridge hand will take care of that issue, so you can stay focused on the target for the cb.

Interestingly enough, it's recommended to look at the cb last on some shots like jump shots, masse shots and break shots. I imagine the reason for that is because you are doing something at a speed or an angle that could result in damage to the cloth if you're not precise, not to mention an innacurate result.
 
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Mark Avlon

Northwest Pool School
Silver Member
When you aim, you line the cue ball, your bridge, your grip, and your eyes to your distant target. It doesn’t make sense to then choose a new target on the cue ball to throw your cue at. You can introduce an error when changing targets. If you introduce a small error at the cue ball, you will cause a larger error at the distant target.

Why would you want create the possibility for an error?
 

madmiller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I started to learn pool, one time I had a chance to play with a master player and I asked the same question.
He told me - " looking at the cue ball last when shooting pool is like looking at the dart instead of the dartboard or looking at the gun instead of the target when shooting".
 

Okie

Seeker
Silver Member
Well, some players switch their gaze from the cb to the ob during the back stroke and some switch before they begin their back stroke. Either way is fine.

But back to your original question: It's kind of like throwing a ball where you're looking at the target rather than the ball you're throwing. The only difference is that the cb isn't attached to your cue. But a secure bridge hand will take care of that issue, so you can stay focused on the target for the cb.

Interestingly enough, it's recommended to look at the cb last on some shots like jump shots, masse shots and break shots. I imagine the reason for that is because you are doing something at a speed or an angle that could result in damage to the cloth if you're not precise, not to mention an innacurate result.

Advice on looking at cue ball during break is what got me along this line of thinking....again. When I started the game I looked at cue ball last. It was a natural progression from golf.

When you aim, you line the cue ball, your bridge, your grip, and your eyes to your distant target. It doesn’t make sense to then choose a new target on the cue ball to throw your cue at. You can introduce an error when changing targets. If you introduce a small error at the cue ball, you will cause a larger error at the distant target.

Why would you want create the possibility for an error?

I understand what you're saying but from golf I would only see the target in my mind's eye after lining up. So when I look at cue ball last now it "feels" like I am more solid during the stroke.

This is definitely on the drawing board still. My ultimate goal is to match the accuracy I see in weaker players....weaker than myself. I beat them because I know more about the game and play on their tendencies better than they play on mine....in most cases :)

Thank ya'll for the responses! I know it seems tedious but I spend a LOT of time thinking about how to improve.

Ken
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The quiet eye article doesn't cut it for me.

There are too many variables, such as all the other fundamentals that go into shooting well. Which players were aligned properly and improperly? What were their various playing levels? Which ones had stroke issues, like bad stroke timing? The list goes on and on which makes studies like this inconclusive.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I didn't read the article, but maybe someone can save me the time.

I don't look directly at the OB. Instead, I just look at some generic area before the OB. I can see still it, but not as clearly as if I were staring right at the OB.

Is that quiet eye?
 
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ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I didn't read the article, but maybe someone can save me the time.

I don't look directly at the OB. Instead, I just look at some generic area before the OB. I can see still it, but not as clearly as if I were staring right at the OB.

Is that quiet eye?

No. The conclusion from my quick scan was that better players looked less often back & forth between the two but they look for longer durations at each. The thinking seems to be it gives the brain more time to absorb the correct info.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No. The conclusion from my quick scan was that better players looked less often back & forth between the two but they look for longer durations at each. The thinking seems to be it gives the brain more time to absorb the correct info.

It hurts my eyes too much to keep switching back and forth.
 

Mark Avlon

Northwest Pool School
Silver Member
The conclusion from my quick scan was that better players looked less often back & forth between the two but they look for longer durations at each. The thinking seems to be it gives the brain more time to absorb the correct info.

That's correct.

The better players in the various sports studied used their eyes more effectively to get the information needed to perform the motor skill well.

It's effective use of our eyes to improve eye hand coordination.
 

Okie

Seeker
Silver Member
That's correct.

The better players in the various sports studied used their eyes more effectively to get the information needed to perform the motor skill well.

It's effective use of our eyes to improve eye hand coordination.

And it most definitely works. I can attest to it in both golf and pool.

And yes Fran, a player's flaws are still evident but the mind is able to make better adjustments with quiet eyes.

If you don't believe the mind makes adjustments then we are at an impasse. :)

I might have just answered my own question. If your are looking at the cue ball during the stroke your mind can't make the adjustments to the cue ball. Or maybe that is what ya'll have already been telling me.

Hmmmm

Thanks for the input and your patience gang!

Ken
 

Mark Avlon

Northwest Pool School
Silver Member
If your are looking at the cue ball during the stroke your mind can't make the adjustments to the cue ball.

You might also say that looking at, and throwing to, your distant target helps your mind make the right corrections so that you hit it.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I like having my head low enough so that I am looking right over the CB at the OB & can shift between the two(2) with very little eye movement.

I was experimenting with shooting with my glassses that I never shoot with and I had a 1.5 diamond cut shot along the head rail while shooting from the foot rail. I had my head higher than normal. I missed the whole ball twice. I lowered my head & made the ball straight in.

I know that is another topic but it seems somewhat related so I thought I'd throw it out since like Ken said the AtI forum has been a little slow.

It's kind of like eyes over the ball or inside the line when putting a golf ball.

What do you think Ken?
 

Okie

Seeker
Silver Member
I like having my head low enough so that I am looking right over the CB at the OB & can shift between the two(2) with very little eye movement.

I was experimenting with shooting with my glassses that I never shoot with and I had a 1.5 diamond cut shot along the head rail while shooting from the foot rail. I had my head higher than normal. I missed the whole ball twice. I lowered my head & made the ball straight in.

I know that is another topic but it seems somewhat related so I thought I'd throw it out since like Ken said the AtI forum has been a little slow.

It's kind of like eyes over the ball or inside the line when putting a golf ball.

What do you think Ken?

I am still shewing on that one actually. I have worn glasses since the mid 80's. Until the last 6 months I had not known shooting without them (I got contacts). I can see the balls so much better with my glasses on but feel I shoot better with the contacts.

Watch my videos from tonight and I made a few very thin rails shots that I have not been very successful with lately. I can't really see the edge but I know where it is....if that makes sense. lol

Ken
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I am still shewing on that one actually. I have worn glasses since the mid 80's. Until the last 6 months I had not known shooting without them (I got contacts). I can see the balls so much better with my glasses on but feel I shoot better with the contacts.

Watch my videos from tonight and I made a few very thin rails shots that I have not been very successful with lately. I can't really see the edge but I know where it is....if that makes sense. lol

Ken

Ken,

I often say that I'm playing more by memory than by actual sight.

I'm thinking about contacts but I can't even put eye drops in my eyes unless I load up the corner & then pry them open.

Best to you,
 
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