Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

Maniac said:
From what I gathered from his post, I think the advantages came unexpectedly.

Now, he probably wishes he would have went non-smoking YEARS ago.

Maniac (just theorizin')
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I used to beg, literally beg bar owners to go non-smoking. Everyone of them was afraid of losing business. I told them of their losing some or all of MY business right now. They didn't care about that. Fear took over their minds.

The one owner I had the most respect for ran a place called Smokey's. She wanted to open a second bar and I suggested doing it in the rich part of town and calling it SmokeFree's, as a play off of her other bar. I said the free publicity about that would be a great way to do a grand opening. She was too afraid of doing that and opened a place on the poorest side of town that is still a successful business today, btw.

She, a non-smoker, died a few years later of small cell lung cancer.

I also understand the reluctance and expense to clean up a smoking bar, especially in today's political environment of control-freakism where spending thousands on smoke eaters and then having them instantly rendered useless when laws are passed prohibiting smoking might put a damper (get it? damper...stop me!) on cleaning up the air.

I don't smoke.

Jeff Livingston
 
cueandcushion said:
I am very happy for the smoking ban here in St. Louis City and St. Louis County. Look at all the non-smokers playing longer and returning with dates now. Women stay longer because their clothes no longer smell when they stay too long. People with kids will stay longer without smoke. All the smokers pool time went up because of smoking breaks. As far as I know, no smokers quit playing pool. Some may have migrated from my room to bars or across the river where smoking is allowed, but it was overshadowed by the increase in income from the people that stayed. Retail customers have complimented on the cleaner environment in our store. Our insurance went down after the smoking ban because of lower fire risk. Our electric bill went down due to air conditioners working less because of cleaner coils. We no longer spend the same amount in labor or cleaning supplies on cleaning nicotine, ashes and tar off the walls/ tables/ carpet.


We spent a lot of time preparing and cleaning up our place after the smoking ban. Either repainting or cleaning every surface in our building. It was a task we have been working on for 2 full years now and still working on. Maybe not having a bar meant our smokers were more adaptable? I don't know. But its been the largest increase in pool income we have had in years.
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Congratulations. This is what I was looking for. I know many room owners read this thread. You are the first to voice a "positive transition with increase revenues". Anything else you would like to add is welcome and appreciated.
 
cigardave said:
That would be the case for me.

Outside of work, I practically lived in a bar/poolroom when smoking was still allowed here in WA state. As a result, I probably shot pool for at least 20 hours per week... maybe up to 25.

The WA smoking ban went into effect on 12/8/2005. Within 2.5 years, I bought my first-ever home table (in 2008 at age 59), a 9-foot Diamond Pro Am, and had it set up inside my re-modeled garage. I love my table but my table time has dropped down to about 2 hours a week, a 90% reduction from when I was allowed to smoke at a bar/poolroom.

I rarely put one of my cues in a case and shoot elsewhere.
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kinda sad really... playing with your friends or teammates, drinking a cold one, and facing the fun of good old competition all comes in second to sucking down a few cigs.

Well, good luck, and have fun, I guess :confused:
 
Originally Posted by cigardave
That would be the case for me.

Outside of work, I practically lived in a bar/poolroom when smoking was still allowed here in WA state. As a result, I probably shot pool for at least 20 hours per week... maybe up to 25.

The WA smoking ban went into effect on 12/8/2005. Within 2.5 years, I bought my first-ever home table (in 2008 at age 59), a 9-foot Diamond Pro Am, and had it set up inside my re-modeled garage. I love my table but my table time has dropped down to about 2 hours a week, a 90% reduction from when I was allowed to smoke at a bar/poolroom.

I rarely put one of my cues in a case and shoot elsewhere.

kinda sad really... playing with your friends or teammates, drinking a cold one, and facing the fun of good old competition all comes in second to sucking down a few cigs.

Well, good luck, and have fun, I guess


Hey RJ, Given the username I was not surprised at his comments but I disagree with them as well. Imagine how many pool halls would have let him smoke cigars in them, even 30 years ago. Smoking is a stinky, unhealthy addictive habit and I would quit pool if my only option was to play in a smoke filled pool hall. I was in Florida a couple years ago and it was just plain awful being in the pool halls there.
 
I will always argue that property owners should be allowed to make their own decision on these types of matters. Most of them should have made a decision a long time ago to at minimum, invest in effective ventilation so the second hand smoke was essentially a non issue. I've been in a number of cigar bars and similar establishments where, with the proper ventilation, the smoking was essentially a non issue. That still wouldn't satisfy the hard core anti smoking nazi's but would have made being there, playing pool, etc. very tolerable for most. An even better solution would have been to create a small, isolated smoking room even if it was just an area with wind breaks and one of the outside heaters where smokers could easily step out and have a smoke break comfortably.

I quit smoking cigarettes 6 years ago after 25 years of over a pack a day habit. I smoke cigars and pipe now. I love playing pool 100x more than I enjoy slowly killing myself. It would be a cold day in hell when I choose to decline going out to play pool in favor of sitting at home by myself so I could smoke. If an addiction is at that level, please seek help for the sake of your life. That's just nuts in my book.
 
Quesports said:
Hey RJ, Given the username I was not surprised at his comments but I disagree with them as well. Imagine how many pool halls would have let him smoke cigars in them, even 30 years ago. Smoking is a stinky, unhealthy addictive habit and I would quit pool if my only option was to play in a smoke filled pool hall. I was in Florida a couple years ago and it was just plain awful being in the pool halls there.
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The funny thing is that when smoking was allowed we did NOT quit the game we love, and there are some smokers who quit the game.??

We could NOT limit the smoking while playing, but the smokers can step outside and get all the nicotine they want. The smokers really have the best of both worlds, they get to smoke and play pool while not bothering a soul in the world, but I guess that 30 foot walk is just too much to ask?? I just don't get it...

PS: see ya tonight in our smoke free and very busy league (16 teams)
 
Personally... when it take me 3-5 days to 'get over' a 'smoking' pool tourny event, its hard for me to keep justifying the cost (real costs) of the effort to stay competitive. Its just too distracting the older I get... but I mean we all have choices, right?? I (as do most others) prefer not to have 'Brain Rot' inflicted upon me in order to enjoy this great hand/eye coordinated mental game. Life is expensive enough as it is without dealing with someone else's negligence (or insert your own characterization). Brain cells get harder to maintain as we age without additional insult.

I recently posted this link about a recent study looking at smoking causing 'brain rot' in another forum..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/26/smoking-rots-the-brain-study-aging_n_2193236.html


...its not 'bunk', but its in the same vein as the original poster's concern about why the pool business model that caters to the smoker will continue down this road of squeezing out the "higher tier" broader demographic customer base.

"The business of pool draws heaviest from the lowest fifth of the demographic scale. The highest percentage of smokers is in this group. Pool appeals to this group and our poolrooms are built to serve this group. Tell them that they can’t smoke in a poolroom and who replaces them? The smoker to non-smoker ratio in this demographic is much different than the tiers above them.

The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. This is very bad news for pool. Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups."

... and who is in the higher demographic groups... well quoting the OP..

"....We have lost more than 70% of our poolrooms.

The answer sits in the governments demographic reports on smokers. Its eye opening and easy to see why some businesses benefit and others are destroyed.

1. The more educated an individual is, the less likely he/she smokes. A person with a mere high school education is 8X more like to smoke than a person with a college education beyond a bachelor degree.
2. In parallel, the higher a person’s income and net worth is, the less likely a person smokes. At the same time, the closer a person’s income approaches the poverty line, the more likely a person smokes.
3. Looking at a graph of smokers from the ages of 18 to 80, the closer a person is to the age of 18, the more likely the person smokes.

Who is our clientele?"


... I guess as long as pool hall business owner's continue to seek the 5th 'lowest tier' clientele (according to the gov Stats), 'Brain Rot' (et al associated complications) will continue to keep the upper tier clientele ($$$$) out of pool. This sport/hobby/obsession deserves a public make over.

imo I respect everyone's 'right to' smoke, eat, shoot up and even 'shoot oneself in the head'... as long as one can afford to do it on his/her own dime/time/place/(hospital cost etc)... (kinda like religion)... but when one's bad habits, opinions, etc impose on others that's where the respect stops.

Its time for some changes in the pool business model way of thinking that respects all. I hope that the 'business of pool' will shift it business model to attract a 'higher tier' (sounds pretty offensive but.... qualified) so more of us pool lovers will play more often and play longer for more $$$$ in a 'healthy competitive' environment. Personally I'm tied of stinking, coughing, having to avoid events, etc. Just saying.... like the OP points out...

"..The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. .... Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups."



Randy
 
Philip Morris

Well all this talk about smoking got me to wondering how things were going for Philip Morris.

I guess I should have bought some a couple years ago, Stocks that is not cigarettes..


My link didn't work but Philip Morris stocks have doubled since 09, I guess they are selling em and someone is smoking em as well. Smoking Marlboro's must still be chic somewhere.
 
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rhatten said:
Personally... when it take me 3-5 days to 'get over' a 'smoking' pool tourny event, its hard for me to keep justifying the cost (real costs) of the effort to stay competitive. Its just too distracting the older I get... but I mean we all have choices, right?? I (as do most others) prefer not to have 'Brain Rot' inflicted upon me in order to enjoy this great hand/eye coordinated mental game. Life is expensive enough as it is without dealing with someone else's negligence (or insert your own characterization). Brain cells get harder to maintain as we age without additional insult.

I recently posted this link about a recent study looking at smoking causing 'brain rot' in another forum..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/26/smoking-rots-the-brain-study-aging_n_2193236.html


...its not 'bunk', but its in the same vein as the original poster's concern about why the pool business model that caters to the smoker will continue down this road of squeezing out the "higher tier" broader demographic customer base.

"The business of pool draws heaviest from the lowest fifth of the demographic scale. The highest percentage of smokers is in this group. Pool appeals to this group and our poolrooms are built to serve this group. Tell them that they can’t smoke in a poolroom and who replaces them? The smoker to non-smoker ratio in this demographic is much different than the tiers above them.

The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. This is very bad news for pool. Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups."

... and who is in the higher demographic groups... well quoting the OP..

"....We have lost more than 70% of our poolrooms.

The answer sits in the governments demographic reports on smokers. Its eye opening and easy to see why some businesses benefit and others are destroyed.

1. The more educated an individual is, the less likely he/she smokes. A person with a mere high school education is 8X more like to smoke than a person with a college education beyond a bachelor degree.
2. In parallel, the higher a person’s income and net worth is, the less likely a person smokes. At the same time, the closer a person’s income approaches the poverty line, the more likely a person smokes.
3. Looking at a graph of smokers from the ages of 18 to 80, the closer a person is to the age of 18, the more likely the person smokes.

Who is our clientele?"


... I guess as long as pool hall business owner's continue to seek the 5th 'lowest tier' clientele (according to the gov Stats), 'Brain Rot' (et al associated complications) will continue to keep the upper tier clientele ($$$$) out of pool. This sport/hobby/obsession deserves a public make over.

imo I respect everyone's 'right to' smoke, eat, shoot up and even 'shoot oneself in the head'... as long as one can afford to do it on his/her own dime/time/place/(hospital cost etc)... (kinda like religion)... but when one's bad habits, opinions, etc impose on others that's where the respect stops.

Its time for some changes in the pool business model way of thinking that respects all. I hope that the 'business of pool' will shift it business model to attract a 'higher tier' (sounds pretty offensive but.... qualified) so more of us pool lovers will play more often and play longer for more $$$$ in a 'healthy competitive' environment. Personally I'm tied of stinking, coughing, having to avoid events, etc. Just saying.... like the OP points out...

"..The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. .... Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups."



Randy
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Two great posts in 24 hours: cueandcushion & rhatten
 
cigardave said:
That would be the case for me.

Outside of work, I practically lived in a bar/poolroom when smoking was still allowed here in WA state. As a result, I probably shot pool for at least 20 hours per week... maybe up to 25.

The WA smoking ban went into effect on 12/8/2005. Within 2.5 years, I bought my first-ever home table (in 2008 at age 59), a 9-foot Diamond Pro Am, and had it set up inside my re-modeled garage. I love my table but my table time has dropped down to about 2 hours a week, a 90% reduction from when I was allowed to smoke at a bar/poolroom.

I rarely put one of my cues in a case and shoot elsewhere.
Click to expand...


Your cigar smoke never really bothered me the way all the cigs did.The last time we played you were going outside to smoke and leaving you cigar smoldering outside between innings(if I remember correctly).

I hear that place has closed down? To bad.You should check out Golden Fleece,lots of good players,good action.
 
Smoking Aside

Playing Pool now for me is a much more pleasant event.....without smoke and the information speaks for itself when you consider the demographics of who pool appealed to.

What is personally nearly unbelieveable to me is that a lot of Pool Room owners seem to think....that if you build it ....they will come......what happened to advertising efforts becoming a usual part of what you do to keep your business alive?

If you had a business would you not try to get some business?

Just another lovely day in paradise....

336robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
nobcitypool said:
I will always argue that property owners should be allowed to make their own decision on these types of matters. Most of them should have made a decision a long time ago to at minimum, invest in effective ventilation so the second hand smoke was essentially a non issue. I've been in a number of cigar bars and similar establishments where, with the proper ventilation, the smoking was essentially a non issue. That still wouldn't satisfy the hard core anti smoking nazi's but would have made being there, playing pool, etc. very tolerable for most. An even better solution would have been to create a small, isolated smoking room even if it was just an area with wind breaks and one of the outside heaters where smokers could easily step out and have a smoke break comfortably.

I quit smoking cigarettes 6 years ago after 25 years of over a pack a day habit. I smoke cigars and pipe now. I love playing pool 100x more than I enjoy slowly killing myself. It would be a cold day in hell when I choose to decline going out to play pool in favor of sitting at home by myself so I could smoke. If an addiction is at that level, please seek help for the sake of your life. That's just nuts in my book.
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I've made this same argument regarding the owner's property rights but the anti smokers think they own the world but they won't open a pool room. I'm lucky we have a reasonable smoking law in Tennessee and the 'best new pool room award' at Billiards Digest went to a new smoker friendly room here locally. This is the owner's third room and he's managed to stay in business for 30 years.
 
spktur said:
I've made this same argument regarding the owner's property rights but the anti smokers think they own the world but they won't open a pool room. I'm lucky we have a reasonable smoking law in Tennessee and the 'best new pool room award' at Billiards Digest went to a new smoker friendly room here locally. This is the owner's third room and he's managed to stay in business for 30 years.
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Great line!

Jeff Livingston
 
Hmm, No

spktur said:
I've made this same argument regarding the owner's property rights but the anti smokers think they own the world but they won't open a pool room. I'm lucky we have a reasonable smoking law in Tennessee and the 'best new pool room award' at Billiards Digest went to a new smoker friendly room here locally. This is the owner's third room and he's managed to stay in business for 30 years.
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More of a fluff piece in my opinion. Over the long term, smoking is a drop in the bucket to pool decline (and it should actually be a market booster). Actual declines in pool are more easily tied to poor business management (everyone thinks they can own a pool hall and people that were successful don't adapt), nintendo and xbox, tough dui laws, and poolhalls/bars being unfriendly to kids.

If people want to play pool, they should not care whether they smoke or not.

Did people stop showing up when it was decided you can't hawk a gob of tobaccy on the floor?

People would be PO'd if I parked my truck in the bar and let it run for a few minutes to get the heater blasting before I leave for the evening.

If bars had provided more ventilation so that smoke wasn't noticeable, there would have been less of a push to do this. Most bars I go in have low ceilings and are poorly ventilated so there is actually a haze. That is not right.

Finally, it makes no sense to me that people are surprised you cannot smoke around employees when I cannot send my employees (as a contractor) into a smoky building without a mask because it violates OSHA safety and Health Regulations. Building owners have no right to violate the welfare of their employees or clientele. Bar owners that are not prepared to defend themselves against lawsuits by employees due to bar fights, smoke inhalation, or lawsuits from familys of customers that killed themselves driving home because the bartender kept filling the shotglass should be losing sleep right now. Do you see the ad's on TV from lawyers filing class action lawsuits for mesotheliosis? Substitute smoke inhalation (either by employees or customers, smokers or non-smokers) at bars. Is that not likely to happen in 5-15 years? If the lawyers see money in it, it will happen.
 
For Us Non Smokers and Girlfriends

The beauty of no smoke for the ''Players'' is, when ya come home at 2am, ya don't have to strip down and throw your cloths outside and quick rise off before ya hop in the sack with the old lady.
 
... "If people want to play pool, they should not care whether they smoke or not."

I can remember back in my younger days 15-20 years ago (when I didn't know any better and my immune system didn't mind as much) I had this very same opinion... ya know, if you can't handle the heat, then get out of the kitchen etc. But now it doesn't matter as much what my attitude is about it, it matters more now what my physical/brain health is. Its been well documented that as we all age our immune systems begin to slow naturally with aging (from about age 21 into death). It becomes more evident with age that ignoring the additional insult that smoking provides to our immune system (and brain tissue) and that avoiding it all cost is much more valuable to quality of life longevity than to not.

Based on our more recent 'health conscious' laws and workplace regulations (involving OHSA, World Health Organization (WHO) studies and the like...), it would seem that protecting the public 'from its own' (neglectful societal damaging choices) would hold less vitriol than it does currently. ... but this is America... made up of all types of 'smarts'. The whole point of having OHSA regs and protection laws outlining 'Standards of Business Practices' is to prevent massive class action lawsuits that address 'gross negligence business practice issues' involving the public at large.


...Finally, it makes no sense to me that people are surprised you cannot smoke around employees when I cannot send my employees (as a contractor) into a smoky building without a mask because it violates OSHA safety and Health Regulations.
... Bar owners that are not prepared to defend themselves against lawsuits by employees ... or customers...should be losing sleep right now. If the lawyers see money in it, it will happen.


I paraphrased the hell out the previous post, but it makes the point that "in the Mean Time" until it 'gets fixed' (by the state legislatures and before any class action suits) we are all made to suffer thru these 'negligent business practices' (either knowingly or unknowingly to their local public).

If the choice to play pool was only "to stink or not to stink" (like it used to be for many like me), I don't think a 'pool enthusiast' or even the general public at large would ever say a word. As businesses gather more business 'SMARTS', it'll be harder to ignore legal costs of supporting a 'private addiction' that directly affects others in a public place.

Fwiw imo... as an adult its 'to each his own'...ie 'Smoke 'em if you got em'... but on your own time / on your own dime... and that's ONLY if you can 'truly afford to quit at the end'-maybe even with insurance now in 2013, but again on your own dime.

Randy :smile:

 
spktur said:
I've made this same argument regarding the owner's property rights but the anti smokers think they own the world but they won't open a pool room. I'm lucky we have a reasonable smoking law in Tennessee and the 'best new pool room award' at Billiards Digest went to a new smoker friendly room here locally. This is the owner's third room and he's managed to stay in business for 30 years.
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I mostly agree with this. I think you missed an opportunity to drive your point home. Double Hill is very successfully and is the one non-smoking pool room in TN. This was a personal choice by the owners and that choice has shown to be very profitable. Phil runs great rooms. CBC East is a favorite of mine too. But, I prefer non-smoking. Thank you to the TN representatives that didn't allow the foolish smoking laws affect bars and pool halls.

I also believe that the non-smoking pool rooms are the ones to bring pool back to the main stream. But, forcing owners through laws is evil and runs counter to the American way and freedom.
 
chevybob20 said:
I mostly agree with this. I think you missed an opportunity to drive your point home. Double Hill is very successfully and is the one non-smoking pool room in TN. This was a personal choice by the owners and that choice has shown to be very profitable. Phil runs great rooms. CBC East is a favorite of mine too. But, I prefer non-smoking. Thank you to the TN representatives that didn't allow the foolish smoking laws affect bars and pool halls.

I also believe that the non-smoking pool rooms are the ones to bring pool back to the main stream. But, forcing owners through laws is evil and runs counter to the American way and freedom.
Click to expand...

Success cannot be tied to smoking, maybe the joint is operated better, runs better tournaments, and gives out free drinks all the time.

Also, I am a successful contractor attempting to follow every OSHA rule that applies to construction, but I would be more successful if I forced workers to work in unsafe conditions (didn't provide fall protection for instance, or let them breathe in concrete dust, which is very unhealthy). The caveat is that I would need to avoid getting caught (not hard as there are no OSHA inspectors in town), or not have a serious injury or death due to negligence. That's a bit risky in my profession. I would also be more successful if I cut corners on projects, didn't pay my taxes, and didn't pay my workers for overtime (until or unless I got caught on any of them). I'd rather be successful and know I didn't intentionally put anyone in harms way.

I'm going to drop this subject because I don't think people can be swayed either way. BTW - I detest regulations and laws that restrict free enterprise. Unfortunately they are needed to prevent businesses from taking advantage of their employees or their patrons. We should not need all of these laws, but without them, guys like Madoff make themselves filthy rich off the backs of others. Sorry
 
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