Why Pool Leagues Should Embrace “ALL BALL FOULS”

[Bavafongoul]

There is nothing wrong with enjoying any activity for casual entertainment and agreeing on what’s allowed and not allowed in any competitively played game or sports activity. Heck, playing basketball in the playgrounds in NYC, there isn’t any referee or playing by NBA or NCAA rules. It was commonly understood….No Blood…No Foul.

And we all played and enjoyed the game of basketball on 10’ hoops with chain link baskets, driving to the basket
really hard, getting pushed, bumped or shoved, literally tripping towards the basket, not stopping and then bouncing off the school chain fences surrounding the basketball courts. Remember shooting at the basket with the afternoon sun blinding you so had to squint when you took the shot sometimes not knowing you even reached the rim until you heard the sound of the hoop bounce or the rattle of the chain mesh from the basketball dropping into it. That sound was unmistakable, almost like a jar of quarters or a pocket full of nickels. But it was never played to NBA or NCAA rules yet we had a blast and called it basketball which it was, just a different version. Pool is the equivalent. Just abide by any local rules where you play and thoroughly enjoy the shots you pocket & agonize a little over those you missed.


Does that make it less fun in any way. Heck no, even if I play two consecutive mulligans and the last one rolls in the cup from 165 yards out or a 65’ putt on a high slope green rolls in. Who cares if it was for a 8 or 9. You still made the putt and
enjoyed every minute. When it comes to pool, as long as you play by the agreed upon rules beforehand, like in the
various leagues and associations, you are competing fairly with everyone else. Leagues are intended for social and
recreational play that helps grow the pool playing population. We all have learned that any table can play pretty tough.

 

[poolscholar]

First of all, that ball on the tee isn't in play at the time you bump it. The balls on the pool table are...

Second, it's irrelevant. Different games have different rules. In both pool and golf, the rules tell us how that situation is treated in each game.

You're missing the point but that's ok

 

[David in FL]

You're missing the point but that's ok

Ok.

Explain it to me.

And for what it's worth, this same discussion happens on every golf forum too...

 

[APA Operator]

You're playing a game that you enjoy. Good for you. I mean that genuinely.

But it's not golf.

Says who? That's my point. It's golf if I call it golf. The R&A and the USGA don't get the absolute say on what is called golf. They get the absolute say on what THEY call golf. That's where their governance ends.

Oh, and I've had many an afternoon ruined waiting for some of those "golfers" to take a damn shot and to putt everything out. But I just accept it as it is - after all, that's what they agreed to, so who am I to say what they should or shouldn't be doing?

 

[Fore Rail]

Says who? That's my point. It's golf if I call it golf. The R&A and the USGA don't get the absolute say on what is called golf. They get the absolute say on what THEY call golf. That's where their governance ends.

Oh, and I've had many an afternoon ruined waiting for some of those "golfers" to take a damn shot and to putt everything out. But I just accept it as it is - after all, that's what they agreed to, so who am I to say what they should or shouldn't be doing?

There's golf & then there's tournament golf. I'll take the guy / gal that establishes their skill level via tournaments.

Guess what rules are used for tournaments in the United States & Mexico?

Pool isn't much different if at all.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Yes, the USGA and R&A absolutely do decide what officially constitutes the game referred to as golf.
No other entities have that legal and world wide recognized authority to define, change or alter the rules.
That applies to both the legal and technical aspects of the game of golf that is defined by the Rules of Golf.

Rule #1 defines the fundamental aspects of the game and core principles. These principles, along with specific
rules for play, equipment and procedures, essentially define what the game of golf is. The USGA and R&A are
are akin to a monopoly or sole source provider when it comes to what the game of golf actually is or involves.

The USGA (United States Golf Assiciation) is the governing body that jointly writes and interprets the rules of golf
jointly with the R&A (Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews). The R&A’s jurisdiction covers worldwide except
for the United States & Mexico. A mutual goal has never been to make the game of golf easier other than by tee box.

Think of it this way because it genuinely is the legitimate way. If you don’t abide by the rules, you’re only practicing golf.
You can’t post your score for a handicap nor can you get recognized for a hole in one when you don’t play by the rules.
Of course, you can always not reveal what rule(s) you violated & lie by making everyone think you did play by the rules.

 

[DynoDan]

I watched the video and tried to keep an open mind. You actually make some really good points and in some ways, what you're proposing would simplify things. I'm not a proponent of the the rule change though and think for leagues and most formats where refs aren't present, all ball fouls isn't ideal.

I played in Denver's straight pool league out of Felt for a few years, which plays by all ball fouls. Tom Ross (friend of yours I believe) was adamant at the time that all ball fouls wasn't great, specifically because it's difficult to enforce without a ref present. I'm not trying to speak for him, but that's what I'm remembering his issue to be with it. I tend to agree about the ref piece, especially in regards to shirt fouls. At the time, I kind of liked it and for that league. Sometimes when setting your bridge hand, you lightly feather another ball with your hand or finger and your opponent doesn't see it and you're forced to have a moment of truth with yourself. It's really difficult to call a foul on yourself when on a run of say 20 or more, but I've done it. At first it sucks, but once in your chair, it's nice to have a feeling of honesty and integrity. The difference between that league and most is for that one, the average age of people in the league (at the time, this is around 10 years ago) was like 50-60 and the bulk of the members had been in the league for many years. Everyone knows everyone, you schedule matches with each other once a week, many are friends, etc. There weren't a whole lot of disagreements. Straight pool is an old timers game as well, that has it's own unique set of rules.

Ultimately, as others have said, I'm really hung up on things like shirt/hair fouls where many times the shooter won't be aware and it puts their opponent in a very uncomfortable position. I know you mentioned in your video you can let it go sometimes, but I don't think you can. You also showed examples of how to call it out and the person shooting maybe at first disagreeing, but then agreeing. In reality, I think the person being called out is likely to be defensive and continue to stay defensive no matter what, leaving both people unhappy, even if the person that saw the foul, calling the foul, lets it go.

I do think for professional types of events with refs present it makes sense. For example, I think it works well at the Mosconi cup.

Certainly, the seriousness of your intention to enforce the rules should likely be made clear before the match begins. That never occurs to me usually, as the most honorable (and typically, also most game) opponents will take that as a given. Your comment re: ‘Moment of Truth’ rings especially true. Most everyone has to face that eventually. When the chips are down, and your rent $ or whatever are at stake, you have to decide how much your honor is worth. The rep gained by calling an unnoticed foul on yourself in a big $ game, is something beyond the value of money. And yet, like self-severing a limb to escape a bear trap, not always a decision so easily made.

 

[IbeAnEngineer]

I do not see it happening. I have seen a whole bunch of arguments in league over other seemingly simple things. This will simply be something else to argue about. APA actually makes you put a physical marker at the pocket you are planning to shoot a called 8 ball in. VNEA also has this rule at their tournaments (this rule can be waived if both parties agree). If the leagues had to create a rule to make sure someone clearly put the 8 ball in the pocket they called, how are you going to enforce all balls foul?

 

[straightline]

Speaks well of poolers.

 

[bpeacock]

I play in a league with about 60 people in central MS and we never have arguments...probably not typical. We have beginners and some mid 600 Fargo...I think they are glad to play whatever the rules are. We play by CSI rules. I think the biggest difference in attitude comes from the fact that we redraw our teams every session and all teams have experienced players and beginners. We often coach players on the opposing team. Pool players aren't any better or worse than any other group, It is the culture created by the league operator/owner. IMO.
Billy

 

[David in FL]

Says who? That's my point. It's golf if I call it golf. The R&A and the USGA don't get the absolute say on what is called golf. They get the absolute say on what THEY call golf. That's where their governance ends.

Oh, and I've had many an afternoon ruined waiting for some of those "golfers" to take a damn shot and to putt everything out. But I just accept it as it is - after all, that's what they agreed to, so who am I to say what they should or shouldn't be doing?

Sure.

And you can play "baseball" without someone pitching the ball to you too...

Again, I don't care. But don't expect others to be impressed by your great batting average.

 

[skor]

Like with all changes, at first some don't like it. But eventually, they get used to it and move on to get pissed at something else.
WPBA also play CB foul only, start there and move down to amatuer leagues until CB foul only will be a thing of the past.

 

[bbb]

i have not read thru the whole thread but i think cue ball only fouls should not be abandoned to avoid arguments and possible dishonest use of all ball rules by an opponent
also cue ball only rule has been around along time and i dont recall much problems withit ever being mentioned
regarding the reasons posted below
1)yes pool should be played properly...cue ball only fouls do not prevent that
2)cant really disagree with that but cue ball only rule could the the rule used to be the same rule by all leagues
3)that could be true but those tournaments sre usually refereed ....i am not against all ball foul rules in those instances or done on a case by case basis
4)complex to you maybe but they have been used for a long time without much problem
for a newbie everything is complex
5)usually that is true
6)just because it is simple does not mean it does not present another bunch of problems....."my shirt did not touch that ball"
for example
last point
if you slightly touch a ball which has absolutely no effect on the result of the shot
possibly losing the game or match because of that seems like an excessively severe penalty for a very small infraction
JMHO

 

[poolscholar]

Truth is some people want a rule for everything. Others think everyone is an angel. Others just want to have fun

 

[fastone371]

Says who? That's my point. It's golf if I call it golf. The R&A and the USGA don't get the absolute say on what is called golf. They get the absolute say on what THEY call golf. That's where their governance ends.

Oh, and I've had many an afternoon ruined waiting for some of those "golfers" to take a damn shot and to putt everything out. But I just accept it as it is - after all, that's what they agreed to, so who am I to say what they should or shouldn't be doing?

Sure, its golf if you say so but you cant compare your success to others success if you play unlimited mulligans or any other unusual rules that you may make up in your game of golf. Part of playing by a common rule set is for competitive purposes, if you all don't play by the same rule sets the competition is not comparable.

 

[fastone371]

i have not read thru the whole thread but i think cue ball only fouls should not be abandoned to avoid arguments and possible dishonest use of all ball rules by an opponent
also cue ball only rule has been around along time and i dont recall much problems withit ever being mentioned
regarding the reasons posted below
1)yes pool should be played properly...cue ball only fouls do not prevent that
2)cant really disagree with that but cue ball only rule could the the rule used to be the same rule by all leagues
3)that could be true but those tournaments sre usually refereed ....i am not against all ball foul rules in those instances or done on a case by case basis
4)complex to you maybe but they have been used for a long time without much problem
for a newbie everything is complex
5)usually that is true
6)just because it is simple does not mean it does not present another bunch of problems....."my shirt did not touch that ball"
for example
last point
if you slightly touch a ball which has absolutely no effect on the result of the shot
possibly losing the game or match because of that seems like an excessively severe penalty for a very small infraction
JMHO
View attachment 836256

So if I just touch the cue ball a little bit and the cue ball doesn't actually move it shouldnt be foul because it didnt affect the game, got it.

 

[fastone371]

Because the more experience you have the more you realize the problems it creates. In a perfect world the rule is fine, but someone always wants to cheat and call bad fouls. Especially when money at stake

So you have never seen players argue about whether or not a ball rolled thru an area where another ball was accidentally moved or seen arguments about the location of a replaced ball? If I accidentally bump a ball I know for a fact that that ball will be returned to a location that causes me trouble instead of its original location and I have to accept that because I accidentally bumped it, that's why I don't accidentally move other balls when I'm at the table, its just about awareness.

 

[poolscholar]

So you have never seen players argue about whether or not a ball rolled thru an area where another ball was accidentally moved or seen arguments about the location of a replaced ball? If I accidentally bump a ball I know for a fact that that ball will be returned to a location that causes me trouble instead of its original location and I have to accept that because I accidentally bumped it, that's why I don't accidentally move other balls when I'm at the table, its just about awareness

This is the problem with all ball fouls. Speaking from my experience. Step one don't trust your opponent. Unfortunately there are a few bad people out there. Then they call a foul such as your shirt touching a ball or your cue may have moved a ball without you realizing it. Now you have no recourse. Now imagine you're a tournament director and you have to deal with this for years..

I've seen bad people bully people that are nice because they know they will just accept the foul. Yes it happens. It has happened to me and I fight back, but I've seen it happen to friends and they don't fight back.

Notice this is much different than when you can see the foul too. I'm talking when you can't see the foul but your opponent calls a foul. This is what causes problems, arguments and why tournament directors use cue ball fouls only. And it will stay that way

 

[APA Operator]

Oh

Sure.

And you can play "baseball" without someone pitching the ball to you too...

Again, I don't care. But don't expect others to be impressed by your great batting average.

Oh, I've outgrown the need to impress others and moved on to the "get off my lawn" stage of life. Those who know me tell me how impressive it is that I can play golf at all. That's good enough for me and for many many people in this world.

 

[APA Operator]

Sure, its golf if you say so but you cant compare your success to others success if you play unlimited mulligans or any other unusual rules that you may make up in your game of golf. Part of playing by a common rule set is for competitive purposes, if you all don't play by the same rule sets the competition is not comparable.

You mean like Fargo ratings? Sorry - cheap shot, but impossible to pass up.

I'm glad we agree - there's nothing there that I haven't already said. A common rule set is useful only for competitive purposes. There are way more people who don't have a desire to compete (yet, or any more) than there are those who do.