Why Pool Leagues Should Embrace “ALL BALL FOULS”

[Island Drive]

Because the more experience you have the more you realize the problems it creates. In a perfect world the rule is fine, but someone always wants to cheat and call bad fouls. Especially when money at stake

 

[AtLarge]

... If, the first time I went to an actual golf course, I hit the ball into a bush and was told I had to drop the ball behind the bush (by rule the bush is almost always between where you have to drop and the hole) and had to hit over or around the bush time after time, I would probably never go back....

I think you should just tell the hypothetical person, who told you that you had to drop behind the bush, that he is wrong.

 

[Fore Rail]

I play lots of golf, and it's golf no matter what rules I apply, but I don't compete with anyone but myself. Almost everyone at the golf course where I play does the same thing. Our rules differ, but we're all playing golf, and some of us are even enjoying some friendly competition with friends, by rules to which everyone agreed, and always different than what the R&A or USGA say.

If, the first time I went to an actual golf course, I hit the ball into a bush and was told I had to drop the ball behind the bush (by rule the bush is almost always between where you have to drop and the hole) and had to hit over or around the bush time after time, I would probably never go back. No disagreements, no arguments, just a game that, when played by the strictest of rules, is no fun for a beginner.

Sorry, but you and everyone where you play are not playing golf by waving the rules that are put in place by the USGA.

You have three options for an unplayable lie under the rules of golf - look them up.

 

[David in FL]

No, like playing however you want and not worrying about rules until rules matter. When they do matter, like in competition, as long as they're the same for everyone then everyone who voluntarily entered that competition follows the same rules. It doesn't really matter what those rules are. I play lots of golf, and it's golf no matter what rules I apply, but I don't compete with anyone but myself. I have no desire to do so - I get plenty of enjoyment competing with the me of yesterday or of last week or of last year. At the end of the day, when someone asks me how I did, they don't ask me what rules I used. I know whether I played well or poorly, and that's how I answer. Then I go home and forget about it until tomorrow. Almost everyone at the golf course where I play does the same thing. Our rules differ, but we're all playing golf, and some of us are even enjoying some friendly competition with friends, by rules to which everyone agreed, and always different than what the R&A or USGA say.

The big hang-up here seems to be disagreements and hard feelings. Over 30 years of running leagues tells me there will always be disagreements and hard feelings when you combine rules (ANY rules) and people, so any attempt to eliminate those things will be unsuccessful. Since you can't run any kind of competition without rules though, you have to decide what you do want your rules to accomplish. All ball fouls can be more black-and-white and lead to fewer disagreements about what happened or the resolution, but it also makes the game more punitive and less fun for people just beginning on their journey through the sport or those who just want to play and have no desire to improve. If, the first time I went to an actual golf course, I hit the ball into a bush and was told I had to drop the ball behind the bush (by rule the bush is almost always between where you have to drop and the hole) and had to hit over or around the bush time after time, I would probably never go back. No disagreements, no arguments, just a game that, when played by the strictest of rules, is no fun for a beginner.

APA, in acknowledgement that rules are needed so everyone competing can be compared (skill level wise and win/loss wise), has endeavored to come up with a set that doesn't make the game so hard that raw beginners want to quit. Plenty still do, but many find the rules at least palatable to the point where they can enjoy themselves and experience some base level of competition. APA has been more successful at that than any other organization with any set of rules, bringing beginners into the sport (the only way I know to actually grow the sport). Do they claim that other organizations should adopt their rule set? No, because the other organizations may have different goals. Claiming there is only one set of official rules is a farce and is quite pretentious. Every set of rules is official once someone decides to use them. Being the first to adopt the "official" rules is a ridiculous claim, no matter who you are. Your rules were already "official". All you did was change them.

Claiming to be the governing body of anything is also a farce - even the APA has trademarked the phrase "The Governing Body of Amateur Pool". It's just a phrase, one no other organization in the USA can use. It's not like there's some omnipotent entity who bestowed that title upon them - they were just the first to trademark it. Claiming to be some "Governing Body" with "Official Rules" is just that - an empty claim. Governing bodies only govern those who agree to be governed by them, and every set of rules is official as soon as someone agrees to use them.

You're playing a game that you enjoy. Good for you. I mean that genuinely.

But it's not golf.

 

[MitchAlsup]

In general, we must make a distinction between experienced players and those trying to gain experience. T-ball is not played by the rules of Major league Baseball, not is little league. Casual golf allows for Mulligans (we allow after eating a Jalapeno), High Performance Driving Education (HPDE) has controlled passing, and multiple driving levels to allow novices to become experienced before tearing their cars up.

What casual pool needs (and this is where the masses come from) is a set of rules that if fun across the skill set.

I/we have spent the last 6 months converting a bar-rules bar into a Ball-in-Hand pool playing bar. It was not easy getting most/many of the players to agree, and we still have a few hold-outs. We still allow for the winner to call the rule set. Imposing all-ball-fouls on this set of characters would probably drive half of them away. Heck, we cannot even eliminate scoop-jumps (I am the only person at that establishment that can perform legal jumps.) Over the course of an evening (say 4 hours:: 20 games--yes that slow) there are more than 20 scratches, at least 20 miscue double hits, at least 15 wrong group first hits, at least 15 no rail after legal contact,...) Most of the players are closer to SL2 than Fargo 350. You might as well institute BIH for any termination of an inning !!

This is not a league--this is random people showing up on a random night with few pool skills--20-10 years ago we had a league there on Sun nights, but it collapsed (variety of reasons) and we don't have enough participants to restart. Even here, we use BIH rules, but allows scoop jumps, and legal contact first but no rail rules as OK-ish.

Do you really want to use all-ball-fouls on someone who has never held a pool stick in their hands before ?!?
It is a sure way to drive them away--and in a bar setting at night, it is virtually impossible to give a lesson because there is no IDLE table on which to do that. It is fine to take the position that they should have had that lesson somewhere else--but that is not realistic.

Our goal at this establishment is to make people enjoy the game (a lot like casual golf with Mulligans). One may whiff at CB and we move CB back and let them have another go at it. This has rarely caused any of the better players to loose a single game that otherwise could have been won.

Our goal is for the people to enjoy being there and playing pool--that way they come back.

 

[BasementDweller]

You're playing a game that you enjoy. Good for you. I mean that genuinely.

But it's not golf.

What would you call it then? My son just took up golf a few months ago. Now he's all-in, but him and his buddies aren't exactly playing by USGA rules. He's going to be really disappointed when I tell him he's not even playing golf.

Serious players in any sport can suck the life right out of the game if they're not careful.

 

[David in FL]

What would you call it then? My son just took up golf a few months ago. Now he's all-in, but him and his buddies aren't exactly playing by USGA rules. He's going to be really disappointed when I tell him he's not even playing golf.

Serious players in any sport can suck the life right out of the game if they're not careful.

He's having fun. And if he wants to call it baseball, hell nobody cares...but games have rules. If you're not playing by the rules, by definition, you're not playing the game.

Here's a secret. It's no less fun to play by the rules. Maybe even more so.

 

[poolscholar]

He's having fun. And if he wants to call it baseball, hell nobody cares...but games have rules. If you're not playing by the rules, by definition, you're not playing the game.

Here's a secret. It's no less fun to play by the rules. Maybe even more so.

Golf pros don't even understand all the rules of golf. They have officials tell them sometimes

Not to mention 90 plus percent of amauter golfers.

 

[David in FL]

Golf pros don't even understand all the rules of golf. They have officials tell them sometimes

Not to mention 90 plus percent of amauter golfers.

True.

But we're talking about intentionally ignoring the rules that are easily understood.

Play the ball as it lies. Lost ball? Stroke and distance. Putt 'em out...

And by the way, there's an app for that too...

 

[Bavafongoul]

The point is golf made a rule to make the game more fun and less strict. Which is ironic considering the arguments in this thread and the number of rules in golf

Or maybe they realized that when you play the British Open, the oldest, most prestigious tournament, wind can be an enormous factor. Golf balls can be blown off a golf tee whether it was placed on a mound of sand or a modern day tee.

It was never intended to make the game of golf easier, just less susceptible to outside forces that needlessly penalize a golfer that’s otherwise completely innocent of doing anything to cause the golf ball to fall off the tee. It was for fairness of the game.

 

[poolscholar]

True.

But we're talking about intentionally ignoring the rules that are easily understood.

Play the ball as it lies. Lost ball? Stroke and distance. Putt 'em out...

And by the way, there's an app for that too...

How can you ignore a rule if you don't know the rule? I play golf casually and I'm pretty good. I have no idea all the drop rules and correct ways. So Im not a golfer?

 

[poolscholar]

Or maybe they realized that when you play the British Open, the oldest, most prestigious tournament, wind can be an enormous factor. Golf balls can be blown off a golf tee whether it was placed on a mound of sand or a modern day tee.

It was never intended to make the game of golf easier, just less susceptible to outside forces that needlessly penalize a golfer that’s otherwise completely innocent of doing anything to cause the golf ball to fall off the tee. It was for fairness of the game.

I'm referring to accidentally hitting the ball off the tee on a practice swing or tapping it. This is no penalty in golf and similar to bumping a random ball with your shirt, cue, etc..

 

[David in FL]

How can you ignore a rule if you don't know the rule? I play golf casually and I'm pretty good. I have no idea all the drop rules and correct ways. So Im not a golfer?

We're talking about simple rules that people know, but choose to ignore.

Do you play the ball as it lies, or do you roll it out of that damn divot? Do you count all your strokes? Do you take that long, painful walk back to your previous shot if you lose your ball?

In other words, do you genuinely try to play the game by the rules, or do you simply enjoy whacking a ball around with a stick on a nice piece of real estate?

And fwiw, if you're not playing by the rules, you likely don't know if you're "pretty good" or not...

It's also worth noting that the OP is talking about formal competitions. Not two buddies banging them around on a Sunday afternoon at halftime of the Packer game.

My comments about golf are in that same vein...

 

[Bavafongoul]

The R&A and USGA decide what the rules of golf are. Making the game more fun is not part of their mission statement.
Local rules can be used for that notion. The pros and amateurs abide by the same rules. No where in the rules of golf
is the term fun used or applied. Golf is a game of physical skills. Wanna have fun, go play a par 3 course, play the ladies tees or even try miniature golf. The rules of golf were written to ensure fair play and maintain the integrity of the
game. Having fun never entered in why the rules were established which is why the rules omit mention of having fun.

 

[Bavafongoul]

I'm referring to accidentally hitting the ball off the tee on a practice swing or tapping it.

The point is the R&A and USGA has never written a rule to have more fun playing golf.
That is what you wrote. I didn’t make it up. These are your words you apparently believe.

The point is golf made a rule to make the game more fun and less strict. Which is ironic considering the arguments in this thread and the number of rules in golf

The rules of golf have never been rewritten to make the game more fun. Fairness yes and when you refer to strictness,
that’ what rules are intended to do. The rules are only changed in accordance with why the rules were ever established.

What could that possibly be? Lowers scores, less lost balls, faster pace of play or just to have more enjoyable fun time.
Nope…..to ensure fair play and protect the integrity of the game is why the rules exist and no one cares if you had fun.

 

[Bavafongoul]

What would you call it then? My son just took up golf a few months ago. Now he's all-in, but him and his buddies aren't exactly playing by USGA rules. He's going to be really disappointed when I tell him he's not even playing golf.

Serious players in any sport can suck the life right out of the game if they're not careful.

No, don’t tell him that but do remind him he is cheating on his scores. So when he claims he shot 90, remind him to
admit he didn’t play by the rules so he really cheated but seems hesitant to acknowledge that. Golf is meant to be
played by the rules. Otherwise don’t keep scores because it’s fake and play every hole like it’s match play and then
forget adding up the strokes. Just go have a good time and enjoy every hole but don’t lie about your total score when
you do not play by the rules. And the rules are inflexible and not subject to interpretation. Just buy a Decisions Book.

 

[poolscholar]

The point is the R&A and USGA has never written a rule to have more fun playing golf.
That is what you wrote. I didn’t make it up. These are your words you apparently believe.

The rules of golf have never been rewritten to make the game more fun. Fairness yes and when you refer to strictness,
that’ what rules are intended to do. The rules are only changed in accordance with why the rules were ever established.

What could that possibly be? Lowers scores, less lost balls, faster pace of play or just to have more enjoyable fun time.
Nope…..to ensure fair play and protect the integrity of the game is why the rules exist and no one cares if you had fun.

They added that rule, yes golf rules change all the time

 

[boogieman]

In the end I don't really care. I will play whatever the league I'm in calls for.

I prefer all ball fouls. My first serious 8 ball league was all ball fouls. It made you be more careful. This was back when I was lucky to make 3 shots in a row.

After coming back to pool it was "CB only fouls" and that seemed insane. I didn't mind it though, but I would have got a lot of BIH if it was all ball fouls.

I'm now in an Ultimate Pool 8 ball league and it is all ball fouls. There hasn't been any issues with this rule and 90% of the players are the same that play in the other local leagues. As long as the rules are clear and stated before the league/tournament, no one really cares. At most you will get someone who didn't listen to the rules get a little upset. They usually ask a teammate or TD and once they learn the rule it's no big deal from then on out.

 

[David in FL]

I'm referring to accidentally hitting the ball off the tee on a practice swing or tapping it. This is no penalty in golf and similar to bumping a random ball with your shirt, cue, etc..

First of all, that ball on the tee isn't in play at the time you bump it. The balls on the pool table are...

Second, it's irrelevant. Different games have different rules. In both pool and golf, the rules tell us how that situation is treated in each game.

 

[bpeacock]

I just got a private message from someone too embarrassed to specifically ask their question:

Where exactly do you play? He/she wanted the address, day, and exact time your league plays. They also wondered if there was ample spectator seating.

Not sure why they are so embarrassed. Just trying to help.

OK, you got me... I laughed out loud! I appreciate it!