Why running English for multiple rails kicks?

True for slippery conditions, but after the ball is rolling smoothly it's down to 69%. Typical conditions were all much lower than in the paper especially if the transition to smooth rolling is included. In practice 50% speed loss is a reasonable rule of thumb.
Yes, I agree. But I think the 0.98 in the paper refers to the ball-rail COR (doesn't consider the ball sliding/dragging/rolling on the cloth). So I guess after all, it's still plausible to have .98 COR, interesting!
 
If the cloth acts as a magnetic field and the billiard balls have polarity, then it would be possible to see a ball travel more than 5 rails. Instead of fighting cloth friction, the force fights atmospheric resistance.

Or put the table on an incline and install a bumper rail that pushes the ball back up (like pinball), that would be a different experiment. It might not serve a research purpose for 5 rail accuracy systems.

To turn this thread into a home experiment, everyone can try to find 5 rail shots that end at a corner pocket. There can't be too many positions on a table that solve the problem.
 
If the cloth acts as a magnetic field and the billiard balls have polarity, then it would be possible to see a ball travel more than 5 rails. Instead of fighting cloth friction, the force fights atmospheric resistance.

Or put the table on an incline and install a bumper rail that pushes the ball back up (like pinball), that would be a different experiment. It might not serve a research purpose for 5 rail accuracy systems.

To turn this thread into a home experiment, everyone can try to find 5 rail shots that end at a corner pocket. There can't be too many positions on a table that solve the problem.
Give the people an example professor dipshit, so they may hope to some day attain your skill
 
Give the people an example professor dipshit, so they may hope to some day attain your skill

Its like plotting out points on a graph. Just put the cue ball on the table and start seeing if you can go 5 rails, then move horizontally or vertically for adjustments to get closer to the pocket.

Sounds like Professor Justin at the Harriman Academy needs to make a video, issue press statements and contact the press. This will take sometime.
 
Its like plotting out points on a graph. Just put the cue ball on the table and start seeing if you can go 5 rails, then move horizontally or vertically for adjustments to get closer to the pocket.

Sounds like Professor Justin at the Harriman Academy needs to make a video, issue press statements and contact the press. This will take sometime.
oh, the people would be happy to wait for more of your videos
professor dumbass

like the billiard workout video, the new series will be pure gold that people will remember forever
 
The COE of the entire shot is 0.58, not the COE of the rail. When the ball hits the rail and rebounds, the geometry of the rail forces the ball into the table and it is the friction of the cloth that slows down the speed.

You can see this in the videos.

I am not splitting hairs… yes the end result is slower but the study of the paper only focuses on the ball rail interaction and not the time afterwards.

The reason to point out the difference to illustrate that you can have the same rail and change the cloth and see different speeds.

The point is that not much energy is absorbed by the rail itself.
 
Yes, I agree. But I think the 0.98 in the paper refers to the ball-rail COR (doesn't consider the ball sliding/dragging/rolling on the cloth). So I guess after all, it's still plausible to have .98 COR, interesting!
If they simplify the assumptions to the point they have left reality I think any conclusions are worthless. Even a super-ball is under 95% COR and the rubber in the rail is nothing like that.
 
Open question to anyone. In the Alfa Open series I heard several times in the play by play that the cloth was so slippery the english wouldn't take on the first cushion. Now 3C conditions are silicone slippery yet the shooters have no problem with getting the angles they shoot. Are the pool problems due to not enough spin on the cue ball?
 
Open question to anyone. In the Alfa Open series I heard several times in the play by play that the cloth was so slippery the english wouldn't take on the first cushion. Now 3C conditions are silicone slippery yet the shooters have no problem with getting the angles they shoot. Are the pool problems due to not enough spin on the cue ball?
i am not sure your statement i bolded is correct.
for artistic billiards sometimes silicone is put on the BALLS but not the cloth
 
Open question to anyone. In the Alfa Open series I heard several times in the play by play that the cloth was so slippery the english wouldn't take on the first cushion. Now 3C conditions are silicone slippery yet the shooters have no problem with getting the angles they shoot. Are the pool problems due to not enough spin on the cue ball?
I believe this happens each time you put on a new cloth, Niels Feijen has a video about how to adjust the style of play when the conditions are slippery. Basically you use less English and more on the vertical spins.
 
i am not sure your statement i bolded is correct.
for artistic billiards sometimes silicone is put on the BALLS but not the cloth
At artistic carom they only grease the balls for exhibitions. Carom may look more slidey but that's probably due to new tournament cloth or just that the tables tend to be cleaner.
 
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I believe this happens each time you put on a new cloth, Niels Feijen has a video about how to adjust the style of play when the conditions are slippery. Basically you use less English and more on the vertical spins.
You mean bend rather than spin the ball? In 3C you see the ball breaking at extremely obtuse angles and that's with silicone is what I was getting at. Obviously heavier ball and max spin but still wondering why the poolers had a problem with the kicking not breaking wide enough. (?)
 
I know this might had been asked before but I couldn't find it. Why do we use running English for most multiple rails kick shots? I know that if you don't then you can't use the system, but is there a physical explanation?
e.g.,
2 rail kick using the plus system,
3 rail kick using the diamond 5 system.

But there is one that I know of that doesn't need English at all, which is the 2 rail kick long rail-short rail-corner pocket as illustrated in this video
Bottom line - because using running spin on 1-2-3 rail kick shots is way more predictable as to figuring where the cue ball goes. Also, it keeps up the speed of the cue ball much better.
 
If they simplify the assumptions to the point they have left reality I think any conclusions are worthless. Even a super-ball is under 95% COR and the rubber in the rail is nothing like that.
Your interpretation seems to be incorrect and 0.55 that you reported is in error.

Please see the following article which emperically uses high speed cameras to measure ball speed, and the excerpt from page 791:

From Fig. 9 we see that the relation between the rebound
and incident speeds is almost linear for the incident velocity
in the range of 0.28–3.5 m/s the typical range of ball velocities
in the game. A best fit straight line for the reboundincident
speed data gives a coefficient of restitution of 0.818
for this velocity range. The results are more closely fit by the
second-order polynomial y=−0.0877x2+1.131x−0.0953,
where x is the incident velocity and y is the rebound velocity.
These results are not valid for a general ball-cushion impulse
but are applicable only under the conditions of no-sidespin
and pure rolling motion prior to the impulse. We believe that
the ideal variation between the rebound and incident speeds
should be linear and the reduction in the coefficient of restitution
at higher incident speeds is due to cushion deformation.
The gradient of the plot at lower incident speeds is
around 0.910, and this value shall be valid under the assumption
of a rigid cushion.

Marlow6 reported that the coefficient of restitution for rails
in a billiard table is 0.55 but did not give much detail about
the experimental procedure.
He compared his results with the
values suggested by Coriolis1 and concluded that they agree
closely.6 The cushion height for snooker is 36 mm, with the
ball radius equal to 26 mm, which is close to the height of
1.4 times ball radius found in pool. Thus the cushion and
ball geometry is almost identical in pool and snooker. It is
possible that Marlow considered the rebound ball velocity at
the end of the sliding phase
rather than the correct one immediately
after the impulse. Then the coefficient of restitution
for the shot could be 0.63, but this result has no physical
meaning.
 

Attachments

It is possible that Marlow considered the rebound ball velocity at
the end of the sliding phase
rather than the correct one immediately
after the impulse. Then the coefficient of restitution
for the shot could be 0.63, but this result has no physical
meaning.
For pool players the only "meaningful" thing about the ball's sliding velocity immediately after rebounding is what after-sliding rolling velocity it produces (i.e., what distance it will travel).

pj
chgo
 
For pool players the only "meaningful" thing about the ball's sliding velocity immediately after rebounding is what after-sliding rolling velocity it produces (i.e., what distance it will travel).

pj
chgo
Yes.

However Bob was confused and suggested that the rail study paper was wrong. The paper's study was limited to the rebound event only, not including sliding.

"Who cares?" Well in that case, why ever bother following the scientific method? If you don't you end up with something called religion.
 
it is much easier to hit the center of the cue ball and learn that effect on your rail shots.

when you use english you can be a little off and not know it as its harder to judge 2/5 off center or some such.

learn without english first then go from there.
I like the idea on one rail shots but it is the second rail that makes this difficult.
 
... Here is a paper where the author studies the science of rail-ball interactions. ...
Just started to read the full paper. The first major mistake they make is the height of the contact point between the cushion and the ball. They say it is 70% of the height of the ball. That is much higher than the height in use on pool and carom tables. The correct height is about 63% as shown below.

The 70% height comes from a mistaken idea that if the contact is at that height, a ball rolling straight into the cushion will be returned with full reversed follow and speed out of the cushion -- an effective COR of 100%. That idea ignores how the ball actually interacts with the cushion. It requires the nose of the cushion to grip the ball without slipping. 70% is the height of tip-ball contact for smooth rolling from the start of the shot.

(From their diagram of the cushion nose, it looks like they are showing a snooker profile -- flat-faced cushion, L profile -- as opposed to the curved profile found on carom and pool cushions. This is not important to their analysis since they assume all of the interaction is at that fixed height and that the cushion doesn't deform during contact.)

From the WPA equipment specs:

7. HEIGHT OF THE CUSHION​

Rubber cushions should be triangular in shape with the width of the cloth-covered cushion being between 1 7/8 [4.76 cm] and 2 inches [5.40 cm] measured from the outer edge of the featherstrip to the nose of the cushion. Rail height (nose-line to table-bed) should be 63 ½% (+1 %) or between 62 ½% and 64 ½ % of the diameter of the ball.
 
Well, in reading the paper further, the 70% assumption completely breaks the analysis. For those who are interested....

They take the 70% number and convert it to the parameter theta, which is the angle from the center of the cue ball up to the (single, ideal) point where the ball contacts the cushion. The angle theta then appears prominently in most of the following equations.

The analysis does not apply to real tables. I suspect that their near 100% COR comes from the same mistaken idea about the proper height of a cushion I mentioned above.

It may be that if you look at their analysis that their results do not depend on theta -- somehow it cancels out. I have not gone through their equations far enough to figure that out. Such a cancellation might possibly occur in some systems because what you end up with is sine squared plus cosine squared of the angle which is always equal to 1. If that is true, it says that their analysis holds for any height of cushion. That would be a very remarkable result.
 
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