Why running English for multiple rails kicks?

[Pubo]

I know this might had been asked before but I couldn't find it. Why do we use running English for most multiple rails kick shots? I know that if you don't then you can't use the system, but is there a physical explanation?
e.g.,
2 rail kick using the plus system,
3 rail kick using the diamond 5 system.

But there is one that I know of that doesn't need English at all, which is the 2 rail kick long rail-short rail-corner pocket as illustrated in this video

 

[measureman]

I kick by feel,don't need systems.

 

[Pubo]

I kick by feel,don't need systems.

Genuine question: When you kick by feel, do you use running spin? If so, why is using running spin better than plain ball?

 

[NathanDetroit]

Usually hit a firm stroke. Running english offsets the "shortening" effect of the firm hit.

 

[straightline]

Genuine question: When you kick by feel, do you use running spin? If so, why is using running spin better than plain ball?

In many ways running english will stabilize the angle into a predictable entity - at least on round the table shots. The propulsion of the english always has the same effects on rail entry and exits. That said, you can make many billiards with no english but the ball will pick up english anyway. Better to start with a given override of english than let the table determine it for you.

Regardless, you should learn the first rail with no english thoroughly to get a feel for how the cue ball banks and bends on its own. Then go through the same shots with varying amounts of english. It's not an overnight undertaking by any means.

 

[measureman]

Genuine question: When you kick by feel, do you use running spin? If so, why is using running spin better than plain ball?

Most of the time running English,but with running English a lot of the time after hitting the target ball the cue ball will follow it,not good in some situations.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I know this might had been asked before but I couldn't find it. Why do we use running English for most multiple rails kick shots? I know that if you don't then you can't use the system, but is there a physical explanation?
e.g.,
2 rail kick using the plus system,
3 rail kick using the diamond 5 system.

But there is one that I know of that doesn't need English at all, which is the 2 rail kick long rail-short rail-corner pocket as illustrated in this video

If the cue ball hits the cushions in order -- like for the standard corner-5 pattern -- it will have running english by the third rail nearly always unless you really load it up with reverse. This makes running side what the ball "wants" to have and trying to play rails-in-order with something else is fighting against what the ball does naturally.

The 2-rail shot is kind of a special case because people try to make the "mid-point between the balls and then parallel" system work for the shot. Usually, running side will make the cue ball go "wide" or "short" (english takes more than wanted) on the second rail. An alternative way to play that pattern is with running side and aim longer on the first cushion, but then you can't use the "mid-point and then parallel" system.

Another factor to consider is what "standard stroke" will work for a particular kick pattern under a wide variety of conditions. This is very, very hard to figure out by yourself -- too many variables. The consensus over millions of players is that running follow is the best "standard stroke" to use for the corner-5.

 

[buckshotshoey]

I know this might had been asked before but I couldn't find it. Why do we use running English for most multiple rails kick shots? I know that if you don't then you can't use the system, but is there a physical explanation?
e.g.,
2 rail kick using the plus system,
3 rail kick using the diamond 5 system.

But there is one that I know of that doesn't need English at all, which is the 2 rail kick long rail-short rail-corner pocket as illustrated in this video

Watch this and see how the cushion wraps around the ball on compression.
The cushion actually changes the angle of the ball direction. You need running english to cancel this effect. The harder you hit it, the staighter it wants to rebound. This is why softer hit shots come off at a wider angle.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
The cushion actually changes the angle of the ball direction. You need running english to cancel this effect. The harder you hit it, the staighter it wants to rebound. This is why softer hit shots come off at a wider angle.
...

That's a common misconception. Balls bank short when they are sliding rather than rolling into the cushion. A soft bank will go along the "short" line if the ball starts very close to the cushion.

 

[Pubo]

If the cue ball hits the cushions in order -- like for the standard corner-5 pattern -- it will have running english by the third rail nearly always unless you really load it up with reverse. This makes running side what the ball "wants" to have and trying to play rails-in-order with something else is fighting against what the ball does naturally.

The 2-rail shot is kind of a special case because people try to make the "mid-point between the balls and then parallel" system work for the shot. Usually, running side will make the cue ball go "wide" or "short" (english takes more than wanted) on the second rail. An alternative way to play that pattern is with running side and aim longer on the first cushion, but then you can't use the "mid-point and then parallel" system.

Another factor to consider is what "standard stroke" will work for a particular kick pattern under a wide variety of conditions. This is very, very hard to figure out by yourself -- too many variables. The consensus over millions of players is that running follow is the best "standard stroke" to use for the corner-5.

Thanks Bob for the detailed answer!

So my oversimplified thought on this is, as you pointed out, that since the CB picks up running English just because of it rubbing on the cushion, it will have running spin before hitting the second cushion. So, if you kick without running spin, the angle of rebound on the 2nd cushion will be larger than its angle of incidence, and the use of running spin is to overcome this and pull the CB back to the ideal mirror reflection. Is this a valid explanation, to some extent?

 

[Pubo]

Most of the time running English,but with running English a lot of the time after hitting the target ball the cue ball will follow it,not good in some situations.

Hmm, interesting! I don't think that side spin would make the cue ball follow the target ball. It's probably because the cue ball is rolling on the table already, and it will follow the object ball after it hits it.

 

[Pubo]

In many ways running english will stabilize the angle into a predictable entity - at least on round the table shots. The propulsion of the english always has the same effects on rail entry and exits. That said, you can make many billiards with no english but the ball will pick up english anyway. Better to start with a given override of english than let the table determine it for you.

Regardless, you should learn the first rail with no english thoroughly to get a feel for how the cue ball banks and bends on its own. Then go through the same shots with varying amounts of english. It's not an overnight undertaking by any means.

What do you mean by "The propulsion of the english always has the same effects on rail entry and exits"?

 

[buckshotshoey]

That's a common misconception. Balls bank short when they are sliding rather than rolling into the cushion. A soft bank will go along the "short" line if the ball starts very close to the cushion.

I guess I need to ask what do you mean by sliding ball? Sliding going into the cushion? Or sliding after coming off the cushion?

Many factors change how the balls react. Rolling or sliding. But each one of those will come up short if you hit it harder unless you cancel it with side spin.

 

[DJKeys]

Genuine question: When you kick by feel, do you use running spin? If so, why is using running spin better than plain ball?

Most times I use no english on kick shots. I only use it when I have to widen or shorten the angle of the return off the rail-

-dj

 

[geoff_182]

Well, one reason is that these systems are not geometrically perfect, and running english helps to adjust for error that you might get over multiple rails. (In this case I'm thinking particularly of the midpoint parallel shift on a two rail kick, but I think the same thing applies for other systems)

Another reason, as Bob Jewett mentioned, running english is what the cue ball wants to do. It's easier to judge the path of the cueball if you are doing whats natural to it.

And as with most systems, use it as a guideline. Once you have aimed using your system, you may still need to adjust a bit by feel.

 

[Pubo]

Most times I use no english on kick shots. I only use it when I have to widen or shorten the angle of the return off the rail-

-dj

That's cool! I've not met one who doesn't use running English on kicks

 

[geoff_182]

Most times I use no english on kick shots. I only use it when I have to widen or shorten the angle of the return off the rail-

-dj

For multi-rail kicks?

 

[bbb]

depending on the kick i could use spin for some and no spin for others
yes multi rail or single rail
check your pm

 

[Bob Jewett]

Most times I use no english on kick shots. I only use it when I have to widen or shorten the angle of the return off the rail-

-dj

For one-rail kicks no side is usually best.

Grady Mathews really liked his "max shortening" one-railer, though. With the cue ball almost at the end of the head string (as if you had ball in hand behind the line) shoot diagonally to the opposite rail, about the second diamond. That's close to 45 degrees. Play the shot with reverse draw and watch the cue ball curve and flatten out along the bottom rail. Good for some situations at one pocket. Amazingly consistent if you practice it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Thanks Bob for the detailed answer!

So my oversimplified thought on this is, as you pointed out, that since the CB picks up running English just because of it rubbing on the cushion, it will have running spin before hitting the second cushion. So, if you kick without running spin, the angle of rebound on the 2nd cushion will be larger than its angle of incidence, and the use of running spin is to overcome this and pull the CB back to the ideal mirror reflection. Is this a valid explanation, to some extent?

No, I think the running always makes the outbound line closer to the cushion than the inbound line.