WHY? Thin shaft VS. Thick Shaft

[JoeyA]

Why would a player consistently overcut a shot using center ball using a thin shaft (LD) but not overcut the same shot using center ball and a thick shaft (traditional non-LD maple shaft)?

FTR, the player's experience is mostly with the thicker non-LD Maple shaft and is a skill level 6.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[ENGLISH!]

Why would a player consistently overcut a shot using center ball using a thin shaft (LD) but not overcut the same shot using center ball and a thick shaft (traditional non-LD maple shaft)?

FTR, the player's experience is mostly with the thicker non-LD Maple shaft and is a skill level 6.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
JoeyA

Hi Joey,

Are you sure it's being hit with center ball & not a bit of subconscious outside CIT gearing english?

Otherwise, I don't see an answer if the miss is a consistent over cut in both directions.

Best to Ya,
Rick

 

[hang-the-9]

Why would a player consistently overcut a shot using center ball using a thin shaft (LD) but not overcut the same shot using center ball and a thick shaft (traditional non-LD maple shaft)?

FTR, the player's experience is mostly with the thicker non-LD Maple shaft and is a skill level 6.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
JoeyA

This exact thing was (and is a bit still) happening with my son, and was happening to me with some shots after I changed my stance a bit. There is, I guess you can call it a flaw, to how the player shoots, they likely swerve the tip in during a shot and aim off center a bit naturally but the swerve compensates or they don't see the true line of the shot. If you line up off the true line, but it looks true because your eyes and brain have gotten used to that stance, you have learned to adjust to make the shot. When you change shafts, the cueball now goes off the tip differently and you need to make an adjustment to your alignment, stance, head position, arm/elbow position, make sure you are not swerving the tip in, etc...

Mike Dechaine was watching my son miss this shot with a thin shaft and suggested he try a thicker one, with a bit more deflection I would assume, and it helped him not overcut the shot.

When a friend of mine helped me straighten out my stroke a bit so I don't swipe the tip during a shot, I was missing a lot with spin, even a bit of spin, with my regular shafts. I changed to a lower deflection shaft, the OB1, then what I had before (Players HXT) and I was able to make a lot more balls with my new way of shooting.

I said before in posts when people ask what shaft to get, you can't just look at a shaft because it's 11.75mm or has so much deflection, you have to match it to what your arm and eyes do when you shoot. This guy with the issue has trained his body to see the shot one way, when he changes to a different shaft, that non-perfect stroke causes issues. But it's not really something that is bad about his stoke, it just does not match the shaft.

 

[branpureza]

Why would a player consistently overcut a shot using center ball using a thin shaft (LD) but not overcut the same shot using center ball and a thick shaft (traditional non-LD maple shaft)?

FTR, the player's experience is mostly with the thicker non-LD Maple shaft and is a skill level 6.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
JoeyA

Maybe the thicker shaft helps them process the outer edges of the cue ball in relation to the tip size where as the smaller tip sort of gets lost in the middle of the cue ball. If the makes sense...

 

[ENGLISH!]

The thing is we're taking about what? 1.25 mm.

Is the new LD shaft a pro taper or is it a European conical taper?

Does he(or she) use the inside or outside line of the shaft as an aiming guide or do they use the true center line?

When I went to LD shafts a few years ago it only took me couple of hours to make the adjustment.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Dockter]

I ran into the same problem but opposite. I'm pretty sure the larger shaft threw my aim off from what I was used to but can't say for sure. All I know is my cuts are atrocious with a larger shaft.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Why would a player consistently overcut a shot using center ball using a thin shaft (LD) but not overcut the same shot using center ball and a thick shaft (traditional non-LD maple shaft)?

FTR, the player's experience is mostly with the thicker non-LD Maple shaft and is a skill level 6.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
JoeyA

Does he overcut in one direction and undercut in the other (always misses in the same direction, to his left or right)? If so, it might be a vision center problem that can be fixed with a stance adjustment.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Does he overcut in one direction and undercut in the other (always misses in the same direction, to his left or right)? If so, it might be a vision center problem that can be fixed with a stance adjustment.

I would also suspect a vision center issue.

Also, if he uses a closed bridge, it could be a bridge issue.

Regards,
Dave

 

[miscrewed89]

I know! I know!
And I'm guessing Joey does too...

Is he missing ALL cut shots, or just those which require more than a 1/4 ball cut?

 

[hang-the-9]

I know! I know!
And I'm guessing Joey does too...

Is he missing ALL cut shots, or just those which require more than a 1/4 ball cut?

You know, when I read the post, I thought "why would he not know that"? LOL, and I guess you're right, it's probably a general question like a teacher would ask, not a "I need to know this" one. I just happened to have gone through the exact same thing with my son and myself and knew what worked for us.

 

[JoeyA]

I received a phone call from one of my students who I had given a one hour pool lesson to complaining that he overcuts balls using center ball when he uses my LD cue. Now keep in mind that I haven't seen the person shoot the cut shot with the thinner, LD shaft but your post made me think about that lesson and now I remember that the person was regularly setting up slightly off center (about 1/2 tip of left side spin) and thereby using English when they thought they weren't.

An LD shaft will have more "effective cue ball swerve" than with a traditional maple shaft, especially when the person applies left or right side-spin, intentionally or unintentionally.

So if a person using a traditional Maple shaft is setting up with outside English (left) on a cut to the right and making the shot, they would most likely be overcutting the same shot when using an LD shaft because of the increased effective swerve due to the reduced cue ball squirt.

If a person is using English by unintentionally and doesn't know they are using English (side spin), but making the cut shot using a traditional shaft because of the increased effective cue ball squirt then I believe they need to fix the unintentional application of side spin instead of matching a shaft to fix a core fundamental problem, but that's just me.

This guy who I am talking about has a problem with finding center cue ball and although I went over how to find the center of the cue ball, I could tell he was going to have trouble with maintaining a center cue ball alignment as old habits are hard to break.

When I visit with him in the near future, I will get a chance to see exactly what he is doing and report back. I am especially curious if he has having the same trouble when he cuts balls to the left.

I have always been a person to appreciate that a person should do whatever it takes to improve their pool game and if imagining that you are accelerating through the cue ball helps your pool game then keep on imagining that you are accelerating through the cue ball.

However in this case, I think it is detrimental to the person's overall game to continue to use unintentional side spin even if they are pocketing the object ball.

Thanks again for making me think. This forum ain't dead yet.

Thanks to everyone's SAGE ADVICE. It is always appreciated.

BTW, congratulations on your son's very high finishes in the last 3 tournament events. He must have a good teacher. :smile:
JoeyA

This exact thing was (and is a bit still) happening with my son, and was happening to me with some shots after I changed my stance a bit. There is, I guess you can call it a flaw, to how the player shoots, they likely swerve the tip in during a shot and aim off center a bit naturally but the swerve compensates or they don't see the true line of the shot. If you line up off the true line, but it looks true because your eyes and brain have gotten used to that stance, you have learned to adjust to make the shot. When you change shafts, the cueball now goes off the tip differently and you need to make an adjustment to your alignment, stance, head position, arm/elbow position, make sure you are not swerving the tip in, etc...

Mike Dechaine was watching my son miss this shot with a thin shaft and suggested he try a thicker one, with a bit more deflection I would assume, and it helped him not overcut the shot.

When a friend of mine helped me straighten out my stroke a bit so I don't swipe the tip during a shot, I was missing a lot with spin, even a bit of spin, with my regular shafts. I changed to a lower deflection shaft, the OB1, then what I had before (Players HXT) and I was able to make a lot more balls with my new way of shooting.

I said before in posts when people ask what shaft to get, you can't just look at a shaft because it's 11.75mm or has so much deflection, you have to match it to what your arm and eyes do when you shoot. This guy with the issue has trained his body to see the shot one way, when he changes to a different shaft, that non-perfect stroke causes issues. But it's not really something that is bad about his stoke, it just does not match the shaft.

 

[macguy]

Why would a player consistently overcut a shot using center ball using a thin shaft (LD) but not overcut the same shot using center ball and a thick shaft (traditional non-LD maple shaft)?

FTR, the player's experience is mostly with the thicker non-LD Maple shaft and is a skill level 6.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
JoeyA

Might have to do with the way the shaft slides through their bridge. If I have not been playing I play with a bigger shaft. It is almost therapeutic for me. In fact I am playing with a 13 1/4 mm now. When I was playing my best like 35 years ago I used a 12 1/2 mm but today it feels like I can't control a shaft that thin.

 

[hang-the-9]

I received a phone call from one of my students who I had given a one hour pool lesson to complaining that he overcuts balls using center ball when he uses my LD cue. Now keep in mind that I haven't seen the person shoot the cut shot with the thinner, LD shaft but your post made me think about that lesson and now I remember that the person was regularly setting up slightly off center (about 1/2 tip of left side spin) and thereby using English when they thought they weren't.

An LD shaft will have more "effective cue ball swerve" than with a traditional maple shaft, especially when the person applies left or right side-spin, intentionally or unintentionally.

So if a person using a traditional Maple shaft is setting up with outside English (left) on a cut to the right and making the shot, they would most likely be overcutting the same shot when using an LD shaft because of the increased effective swerve due to the reduced cue ball squirt.

If a person is using English by unintentionally and doesn't know they are using English (side spin), but making the cut shot using a traditional shaft because of the increased effective cue ball squirt then I believe they need to fix the unintentional application of side spin instead of matching a shaft to fix a core fundamental problem, but that's just me.

This guy who I am talking about has a problem with finding center cue ball and although I went over how to find the center of the cue ball, I could tell he was going to have trouble with maintaining a center cue ball alignment as old habits are hard to break.

When I visit with him in the near future, I will get a chance to see exactly what he is doing and report back. I am especially curious if he has having the same trouble when he cuts balls to the left.

I have always been a person to appreciate that a person should do whatever it takes to improve their pool game and if imagining that you are accelerating through the cue ball helps your pool game then keep on imagining that you are accelerating through the cue ball.

However in this case, I think it is detrimental to the person's overall game to continue to use unintentional side spin even if they are pocketing the object ball.

Thanks again for making me think. This forum ain't dead yet.

Thanks to everyone's SAGE ADVICE. It is always appreciated.

BTW, congratulations on your son's very high finishes in the last 3 tournament events. He must have a good teacher. :smile:
JoeyA

Thanks Joey, it's our combined interest in the playing that makes him a good player, I drag him to all the events I can afford to and to meet all the top players I know, or don't know, and he soaks it up. And not to brag or anything LOL, but he has top finishes in the last 5 state championships not just 3, he won MA at 13 two years ago, then came in second the next year in MA, and this year he again finished second in the MA, CT and NH events. Plus he almost cashed in the NJ state 10 ball championship last year, the one Appleton won. If he beat his next opponent, he would have been playing Appleton the next day, but he was so tired he just could not keep up the energy. He won 3 matches there, we were there so long I had to get a hotel room instead of driving back that night LOL.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So if a person using a traditional Maple shaft is setting up with outside English (left) on a cut to the right and making the shot, they would most likely be overcutting the same shot when using an LD shaft because of the increased effective swerve due to the reduced cue ball squirt.

I agree with this, but wonder why you call it "increased effective swerve" rather than decreased (overestimated) squirt.

pj <- just curious
chgo

 

[pt109]

Why would a player consistently overcut a shot using center ball using a thin shaft (LD) but not overcut the same shot using center ball and a thick shaft (traditional non-LD maple shaft)?

FTR, the player's experience is mostly with the thicker non-LD Maple shaft and is a skill level 6.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
JoeyA

Center ball is center ball....whether the tip is 4 mm or 14 mm.
The shaft is not user friendly for him.
A good shaft gives you a break even if you don't hit exact center, the cue ball will go like
you did.

And for the 'arrow and Indian guys'....a cue that suits YOU is invaluable.
If a house cue and a Szamboti feel the same, you got a problem with your game.

 

[The Dragon]

The thicker Shaft is more forgiving than the thinner one, it also has more tip in contact with the ball creating IMO a larger Sweet spot.

 

[Albatross Cues]

Aloha

Maybe check his bridge, if he is using a closed bridge, he may not be holding the shaft tight enough on the thinner shaft. Just a thought.

Aloha

 

[JoeyA]

I agree with this, but wonder why you call it "increased effective swerve" rather than decreased (overestimated) squirt.

pj <- just curious
chgo

Patrick,
I'm not sure why I said it that way and I know you are a much better wordsmith especially in pool terms than myself. Sometimes I say things different ways so that everyone reading may understand it better but in this case I was probably more interested in emphasizing that the cue ball appears to swerve away from the object ball more so when using outside spin with an LD shaft than with a traditional shaft. I guess it's my limited vocabulary that is my failing.

JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

Does he overcut in one direction and undercut in the other (always misses in the same direction, to his left or right)? If so, it might be a vision center problem that can be fixed with a stance adjustment.

pj
chgo

I will check this out the next time I see him. I did remember that he liked to apply a touch of side spin when he thought he was hitting center ball. Interesting enough, he was fairly competent at pocketing balls unknowingly applying side spin.

It seems that MOST people cut balls better in one direction than the other.

JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

I ran into the same problem but opposite. I'm pretty sure the larger shaft threw my aim off from what I was used to but can't say for sure. All I know is my cuts are atrocious with a larger shaft.

I have always cut balls better with a think shaft than a thin shaft. Other players in my area note the same thing. One good local player often switches cues on severe cut shots and uses the thinner shafts to cut balls.

JoeyA