Why?

[(((Satori)))]

I don't know much - only some of what makes stuff happen on a pool table. And I don't know what top players know or don't know. I do know some very good players who know more than I do - some of them post here.

Is your point "knowing more than top players must be bad for your game"? If it isn't obvious to you that's not logically sound, I can't help you.

pj
chgo

I think its like I said earlier. There is a fine line between helpful and hurtful info.

For example. Its obviously helpful to know the limitations of working with a cueball... like whats the maximum angle that can be obtained from draw on a particular cut shot or something like knowing how frozen balls will react when struck on this side or that with this spin or that etc.

I am not against science guys as they provide a lot of great info for everyone but I also believe that there are mental tricks that a lot of great players use that may not be factually correct but provide the confidence needed for a player to play at a high level. I also believe that if a great player fully understood exactly how hard some things that great player does really is then he might not be able to do it. I dont think there is anything wrong with thinking like a pro if they have some proven mental tricks here and there that may or may not be factually correct.

I hear instructors say pros cant teach. Well I have seen many times that not to be the case. When Gabe Owen was playing very good, practicing every day, winning local and regional tournaments... he went on the road with JJ for a few months and he came back at least 2 balls better. Sure he was in action on the road but he was always in action... I think it was the knowledge of JJ that gave him the improvement and I'm pretty certain that at least some of that knowledge may not have stood up to the myth buster section of azb. But it worked and thats all that really matters imo.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think its like I said earlier. There is a fine line between helpful and hurtful info.

For example. Its obviously helpful to know the limitations of working with a cueball... what angle of maximum draw you can obtain on a particular cut shot etc. or it is helpful to know how frozen balls will react when struck on this side or that with this spin or that etc.

I am not against science guys as they provide a lot of great info for everyone but I also believe that there are mental tricks that a lot of good players use that may not be factually correct but provide the confidence needed for a player to play at a high level. I also believe that if a great player fully understands exactly how hard some things that great player does really is then he might not be able to do it. I dont think there is anything wrong with thinking like a pro if they have some proven mental tricks here and there that may or may not be factually correct.

I here instructors say pros cant teach. Well I have seen many times that not to be the case. When Gabe Owen was playing very good, practicing every day, winning local and regional tournaments... he went on the road with JJ for a few months and he came back at least 2 balls better. Sure he was in action on the road but he was always in action... It was the knowledge of JJ that gave him the improvement and I'm pretty certain that at least some of that knowledge may not have stood up to the myth buster section of azb. But it worked and thats all that really mattered imo.

Another good post.

Perhaps when some say that Pros can't teach... that open ended statement implies... that pros can't teach one to play.

Perhaps they should finish the statement & say that Pros can't teach the science or the whys behind the game.

But... they leave it with the open ended statement.

Now...some or even many Pros may not WANT to teach.

What they can't really teach, & no one really can, is that 'Heart' that was mentioned earlier.

One either has 'Heart' or one does not have 'Heart'.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think its like I said earlier. There is a fine line between helpful and hurtful info.

For example. Its obviously helpful to know the limitations of working with a cueball... like whats the maximum angle that can be obtained from draw on a particular cut shot or something like knowing how frozen balls will react when struck on this side or that with this spin or that etc.

Where are the examples of "hurtful" info?

I am not against science guys

Imagine their relief.

I dont think there is anything wrong with thinking like a pro if they have some proven mental tricks here and there that may or may not be factually correct.

Absolutely. What does it have to do with "hurtful info"?

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

What I'm referring to didn't happen overnight, or naturally, it was a result

I'm not confusing anything. I love to learn, and I've actually learned a lot from you. Glad to see you out of the pokey and back here where you belong.

What I am addressing is the question posed by the OP regarding your play vs. CJ's. I strongly suspect (but cannot prove) that CJ thinks at the table less than you do, and relies more on instinct than on logic to get through a rack, and the fact that you understand way more about the science of the game than he does (and likely more than most pros understand) wouldn't help you at all in a contest against top players who have learned how to completely let go and let the game play through them.

I don't believe it's a question of thinking more or less, it's about the ability to access subconsciously information and utilize it better. This is much easier said than done.

What I'm referring to didn't happen overnight, or naturally, it was a result of many years of learning, developing and practicing many different disciplines. Pool wasn't the most influential one, however it is a game that brings out many of the same characteristics.

If you put someone's conscious processing abilities up against their subconscious processing abilities, which one would win?

Does anyone know how much of our mind we actually are able to use? This will answer the question in a different way concerning what mentally separates the champion players form those that have "hit a wall," and aren't able to improve.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I don't believe it's a question of thinking more or less, it's about the ability to access subconsciously information and utilize it better. This is much easier said than done.

What I'm referring to didn't happen overnight, or naturally, it was a result of many years of learning, developing and practicing many different disciplines. Pool wasn't the most influential one, however it is a game that brings out many of the same characteristics.

If you put someone's conscious processing abilities up against their subconscious processing abilities, which one would win?

Does anyone know how much of our mind we actually are able to use? This will answer the question in a different way concerning what mentally separates the champion players form those that have "hit a wall," and aren't able to improve.

I like that, CJ.

It may be a matter of semantics but earlier we we're referring to 'Heart'.

I've coached 4 year olds to young adults in the 3 major sports & as a coach one is always looking for that athlete with 'Heart'.

Maybe 'Heart' is the ability to access one's subconscious so as to just get it done.

While others sometimes never even seem to make a decision or make the wrong decision the player with 'Heart' just seems to get it done.

I think it also has something to do with a lack of fear or an ability to perform in spite of fear.

Thanks for the food for thought.
Rick

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I like that, CJ.

It may be a matter of semantics but earlier we we're referring to 'Heart'.

I've coached 4 year olds to young adults in the 3 major sports & as a coach one is always looking for that athlete with 'Heart'.

Maybe 'Heart' is the ability to access one's subconscious so as to just get it done.

While others sometimes never even seem to make a decision or make the wrong decision the player with 'Heart' just seems to get it done.

I think it also has something to do with a lack of fear or an ability to perform in spite of fear.

Thanks for the food for thought.
Rick

Rick, just to be clear, when I brought up playing from the heart, I wasn't referring to the term "showing heart", i.e. showing courage and grit in the face of defeat. I meant playing from some place deep inside you where you lose your sense of self and rely on pure instinct, gut, subconscious, whatever you want to call it. You feel one with the equipment and your surroundings, and act without the aid of any conscious thought at all.

We've all experienced this feelings many times in our lives. It is the feeling you have when daydreaming - awake, aware, but temporarily freed from words and rational thought. Too bad we all got yelled at for daydreaming when we were kids, it is really the highest form of awareness, a state that mystics strive for a lifetime to summon up at will. I can't find it playing pool, but I have often found that space playing music.

I've been playing fingerstyle blues guitar for almost 50 years now. I've PAMC (played a million chords) ages ago, and the instrument is second nature to me now. I'm way past thinking about where I'm going with that line, what chord comes next, should I use that voicing right here, should I play a Cmaj9 there, etc. That knowledge was necessary decades ago, but at this point it just flows out from my fingers like water, and all I am thinking about is the feeling I'm trying to convey.

There have been countless times where I completely lost the sense of separation between myself and my guitar, and felt like "the guitar was playing me", making my fingers work perfectly for hours on end without my knowledge consciously guiding them. I just put in the nickel and the tunes pop out like magic. No thought involved, it's all coming from the bottom of that iceberg in CJ's image. I can only imagine that's what it feels like for him to run an eight-pack in 9-ball.

And now, here's a little treat from a great musician who always seemed to play from his heart:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffcQwYGk3Kg


Enjoy.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

A better question is would CJ-with-knowledge beat CJ-without-it?

You tell me. You've already set him straight on a lot. Has it made him they great player he once was?

You equate lack of knowledge with the ability to do that?

Those are your words. I have nothing against knowledge, just excessive deliberation at the table.

 

[(((Satori)))]

I have nothing against knowledge, just excessive deliberation at the table.

That is one thing Pat set me straight on in this thread.

I equated too much knowledge with excessive thinking. When he posed the question of what is hurtful info I came up with a few answers in my head like "correcting someone who might be mistaken but they believe in their way and that belief makes it work." But before that question I had an idea in my head that too much knowledge is bad for your game and when I tried to come up with an example of factual knowledge that might be bad for my game I was stumped. Perhaps the problem is simply not mastering the knowledge to the point of a subconscious level.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick, just to be clear, when I brought up playing from the heart, I wasn't referring to the term "showing heart", i.e. showing courage and grit in the face of defeat. I meant playing from some place deep inside you where you lose your sense of self and rely on pure instinct, gut, subconscious, whatever you want to call it. You feel one with the equipment and your surroundings, and act without the aid of any conscious thought at all.

We've all experienced this feelings many times in our lives. It is the feeling you have when daydreaming - awake, aware, but temporarily freed from words and rational thought. Too bad we all got yelled at for daydreaming when we were kids, it is really the highest form of awareness, a state that mystics strive for a lifetime to summon up at will. I can't find it playing pool, but I have often found that space playing music.

I've been playing fingerstyle blues guitar for almost 50 years now. I've PAMC (played a million chords) ages ago, and the instrument is second nature to me now. I'm way past thinking about where I'm going with that line, what chord comes next, should I use that voicing right here, should I play a Cmaj9 there, etc. That knowledge was necessary decades ago, but at this point it just flows out from my fingers like water, and all I am thinking about is the feeling I'm trying to convey.

There have been countless times where I completely lost the sense of separation between myself and my guitar, and felt like "the guitar was playing me", making my fingers work perfectly for hours on end without my knowledge consciously guiding them. I just put in the nickel and the tunes pop out like magic. No thought involved, it's all coming from the bottom of that iceberg in CJ's image. I can only imagine that's what it feels like for him to run an eight-pack in 9-ball.

And now, here's a little treat from a great musician who always seemed to play from his heart:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffcQwYGk3Kg

Enjoy.

Yeah,

I hear you. I just think 'Heart' encompases much & really can't be measured or properly defined without placing limitations on it & I really don't think limitations should be assigned to it.

Some can't seem to live without having everything in it's place so to speak. We know much but there is much more that we do not know.

Some just can't seem to accept that fact.

I would never call myself a musician but I did play trumpet from 4th. grade til 12th. I was steady but not flashy. My Sr. year the music director needed a new bass player & asked if I'd do it, since I had very good rhythm. It did not strike me well making the change plus carrying that heavy Brass instrument for Mardi Gras Parades & Football Games (I weighed 35 # back then). So I told him that I really wasn't interested but IF he could not find someone else, I'd do it. Luckily, or maybe not, he found someone else.

Anyway, here is one of if not my favorite guitar player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Isjz588Pw&list=PL1363738A5D2570A5

PS Some play the notes as well as others, but some just get their instrument to 'sing'.

PSS Back in the day Chicago was doing a gig along with Hendrix & Santana & they were in the wings when Terry was playing & one said to the other, 'Man... we're' good... but his guy just blows us away.'

 

[Ratta]

I don't believe it's a question of thinking more or less, it's about the ability to access subconsciously information and utilize it better. This is much easier said than done.

What I'm referring to didn't happen overnight, or naturally, it was a result of many years of learning, developing and practicing many different disciplines. Pool wasn't the most influential one, however it is a game that brings out many of the same characteristics.

If you put someone's conscious processing abilities up against their subconscious processing abilities, which one would win?

Does anyone know how much of our mind we actually are able to use? This will answer the question in a different way concerning what mentally separates the champion players form those that have "hit a wall," and aren't able to improve.

Very well written and choosen words- love that sentence.
Zen Pool ftw (or golf? ^^)

lg from overseas,
Ingo

 

[Pidge]

If CJ had a crash course with Dave, Bob and Patrick over say 1 year and by the end of the year he knew everything these guys do...would he be a worse player? No, no he wouldn't. He would be better.

I'm sure CJ knows a hell of a lot about the physics of the game but most importantly he knows the stuff that makes a difference and doesn't fill up his head with stuff he doesn't need to know.

I was speaking to Ken Doherty a while back and he was saying about a situation that came up in our game. He was saying "just spin the ball in" when I couldn't get through to it using centre ball. What he meant was use a little outside to throw the ball. He knew that right hand side in this example would throw the ball and would let me hit the shot a little thicker. Does he know why? Doubt it. Does it matter? Nope.

 

[ENGLISH!]

If CJ had a crash course with Dave, Bob and Patrick over say 1 year and by the end of the year he knew everything these guys do...would he be a worse player? No, no he wouldn't. He would be better.

I'm sure CJ knows a hell of a lot about the physics of the game but most importantly he knows the stuff that makes a difference and doesn't fill up his head with stuff he doesn't need to know.

I was speaking to Ken Doherty a while back and he was saying about a situation that came up in our game. He was saying "just spin the ball in" when I couldn't get through to it using centre ball. What he meant was use a little outside to throw the ball. He knew that right hand side in this example would throw the ball and would let me hit the shot a little thicker. Does he know why? Doubt it. Does it matter? Nope.

I agree with paragraph 2 & 3.

As to the 1st., I'm not too sure. CJ has said that even when he is teaching or making a DVD his game falls. He eluded to it being because of thinking about the whys, wherefores, & hows, or words to that effect. So more technical info than he actually needs may do him more harm than good IF they enter & he can not put them aside.

That said, he may find a nugget from them that may actually make him a better player.

So... I think we do agree but I'm just not as sure as you seem to be.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
A better question is would CJ-with-knowledge beat CJ-without-it?

Sloppy:
You tell me. You've already set him straight on a lot. Has it made him they great player he once was?

You assume he listens with an open mind - that's advice he gives others, but doesn't seem to hear himself. Maybe one day he'll "real ears" it.

I have nothing against knowledge, just excessive deliberation at the table.

We agree on that, depending on how you define "deliberation" - and except for when practicing.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If CJ had a crash course with Dave, Bob and Patrick over say 1 year and by the end of the year he knew everything these guys do...would he be a worse player? No, no he wouldn't. He would be better.

With anybody there might be a downturn at first while new info gets assimilated into the subconscious "autopilot", but I don't think there's any question that the more info your subconscious has to work with the better it can (eventually) perform. In fact, I think this happens constantly as players improve - it's just not obvious that it's happening.

It's understandable to feel that you can have "too much knowledge" - too much headwork at the table is a well known problem - but it's not the knowledge; it's that it isn't fully assimilated into your "autogame" yet.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'm not sure 'we' know exactly how the subconscious works in gathering or distributing 'knowledge'.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm not sure 'we' know exactly how the subconscious works in gathering or distributing 'knowledge'.

If you think it's unwise to "know too much", then avoid learning. Your choice.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

If you think it's unwise to "know too much", then avoid learning. Your choice.

pj
chgo

Can you show me where I said that? But the word TOO when applied to much as in TOO MUCH is interesting.

Putting words into others mouths that they did not say seems to be of small epidemic proportions on AZB. Or, at least there are a number that are infected with that affliction.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Enjoyment is the key - the day I stop enjoying the game is the same day I'll quit

If CJ had a crash course with Dave, Bob and Patrick over say 1 year and by the end of the year he knew everything these guys do...would he be a worse player? No, no he wouldn't. He would be better.

I'm sure CJ knows a hell of a lot about the physics of the game but most importantly he knows the stuff that makes a difference and doesn't fill up his head with stuff he doesn't need to know.

I was speaking to Ken Doherty a while back and he was saying about a situation that came up in our game. He was saying "just spin the ball in" when I couldn't get through to it using centre ball. What he meant was use a little outside to throw the ball. He knew that right hand side in this example would throw the ball and would let me hit the shot a little thicker. Does he know why? Doubt it. Does it matter? Nope.

There's a fine line an accomplished player has to walk. The one that seems to plague those that want to understand everything before they do it is "paralysis by analysis".

My suggestion is to do it first, you'll have plenty of time to understand it later.

When mental paralysis happens to a player they are in a tough position. They have choices and the most popular one is to just "take three days off and then quit entirely".
Those that keep playing will find their head jerking around it strange ways. LoL

The physics and geometry is important to be able to perform, although analyzing it is more like seeing an "instant replay".

Enjoyment is the key - the day I stop enjoying the game is the same day I'll quit forever. This happened in 1999 and I stopped for many years, now I like if more than ever, so it's become a habit to play, teach and correspond with other player daily.

 

[CJ Wiley]

tap into that universal wisdom to play a game like pool

I'm not sure 'we' know exactly how the subconscious works in gathering or distributing 'knowledge'.

You are correct, Rick.

There's not a scientist on this earth that would make the claim of completely understanding the subconscious.

Our minds have influence over trillions of bits of information, as many as all the stars, and planets. To think we can't tap into that universal wisdom to play a game like pool is preposterous.

The universe and our minds are changing every day, we have to adapt, or we will miss out on a lot of great information.

 

[ENGLISH!]

You are correct, Rick.

There's not a scientist on this earth that would make the claim of completely understanding the subconscious.

Our minds have influence over trillions of bits of information, as many as all the stars, and planets. To think we can't tap into that universal wisdom to play a game like pool is preposterous.

The universe and our minds are changing every day, we have to adapt, or we will miss out on a lot of great information.

Hi CJ,

I don't know if you've ever noticed, but I differentiate between the human brain & the 'human' mind.

I never took to Napoleon Hill back long ago when one was trying to get me into his teachings. Maybe he scared me off with his enthusiasm.

That said, there is much in common with other teachings even if some of the terms & 'goals' are a bit different.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick