Will the Team USA ever win another mosconi cup?

[BasementDweller]

I understand what you are trying to say. But it doesn't add up. America has 12-16 year olds who run packages right now.

As I said many of you are reading WAY too much into this year's Mosconi Cup results.

When Niels Feijen wanted to get better he came to America to get some seasoning. He did drills out the ass with Ding Dong Daddy Bert Kinister.

Just because you don't see players in the US Pool rooms doing drills doesn't mean that they don't do them.

I spent ten years in Germany. I can tell you for a fact that in the hundreds of pool rooms I visited throughout Europe I never saw in any of them people diligently doing drills. Oh sure once in a while I'd see a player doing something but it's not as if there are billiard academies churning out future champions. I was a member of five different teams during that time. And even in those teams we rarely had structured practice.

The fact is that very very very very few of us on this forum know the daily habits of the people we talk about. So when you say that the Americans are lazy and don't practice you don't really know that do you? I mean I bet that there isn't a single person on this forum who can say that they know intimately how each player on the American team spends their days. Some know more than others for sure but no one knows all of it.

I want you to consider what your opinion would be IF the Americans had won?

What would be the excuse then? What if the Europeans had had a few more mistakes and a few more bad rolls and the score would have been 11:7 for them? Imagine that conversation and you can possibly see my point.

This is a good post.

I wanted to mention a few other things when I posted earlier but as I often do - I had ten different thoughts running around in my head at the same time and I only managed to convey a couple of them.

I agree you can take the results of this match and throw them out the window. The won-loss record really means nothing in the big scheme of things. We could have easily won this match if would have just made a few shots here or there. But even if we had I would have felt the same way about what I was seeing with my own two eyes. The Europeans as a team, seemed to approach the shots much more fundamentally -- I could see their PSRs and they stayed down on the ball much better (simple stuff but I could see it).

So, I do think the Europeans do probably have better fundamentals. I also imagine this is a direct result of snooker. I realize a lot of these guys have never played snooker, but the trickle down effect is evident here.

The U.S. players have been able to get away with playing with less than perfect fundamentals for years. I think this is due in part to playing on very forgiving equipment (nearly 5 inch pockets). But as the equipment continues to get more difficult, and/or the intensity of the moment increases (Mosconi Cup) these small fundamental flaws begin to show up.

As far as drilling is concerned, I had the exact same thought that you did. The funny thing about drilling is I've come to realize that A LOT (if not all) of practice time by great players is spent outside of the pool hall. I bet that the vast majority of top level players have a table in their homes or access to a table where they can spend a lot of time practicing. When they show up in a pool room - they are not there to practice. But for those guys that do hang out in the pool room all the time - I don't see a lot of legitimate practice going on. This may be one of the last dirty little secrets in the pool world. All of the bangers sit around waiting to match up because they think that's what the pros do. Unbeknownst to them, the shortstops and up are at home practicing their butts off and when they are sitting around in the pool room they are ready to play.

Bottom line is - in the U.S. if the money ever comes along the fundamental flaws that I think I see will take care of themselves because the guys will more willing to put their games under the microscope. As it stands now, I think most of the guys don't really see the point in spending much additional time on such things.

That's it...just my thoughts...I could be wrong.

 

[champ2107]

Maybe this is what the game needs to move to a different level? Its pretty clear the pool scene is what it is here in north america and maybe europe and asia can help out our own pool scene here in north america some how?

 

[JB Cases]

This is a good post.

I wanted to mention a few other things when I posted earlier but as I often do - I had ten different thoughts running around in my head at the same time and I only managed to convey a couple of them.

I agree you can take the results of this match and throw them out the window. The won-loss record really means nothing in the big scheme of things. We could have easily won this match if would have just made a few shots here or there. But even if we had I would have felt the same way about what I was seeing with my own two eyes. The Europeans as a team, seemed to approach the shots much more fundamentally -- I could see their PSRs and they stayed down on the ball much better (simple stuff but I could see it).

Pressure makes the arm twitchy. I watched Johnny play up close and personal for hours two weeks ago. There is nothing wrong with his fundamentals. Same thing with Shane.

Simply put there is no one way to play pool. The only thing that matters is being able to handle the pressure and in that the American's dogged it and when you are dogging it your technique looks like crap. Those two things go hand in hand. Winners look great because we associate winning with winning form.

So, I do think the Europeans do probably have better fundamentals. I also imagine this is a direct result of snooker. I realize a lot of these guys have never played snooker, but the trickle down effect is evident here.

Well I can only speak from my experience in Germany. There is ZERO trickle down effect from Snooker when it comes to Germans learning to play pool.

The U.S. players have been able to get away with playing with less than perfect fundamentals for years. I think this is due in part to playing on very forgiving equipment (nearly 5 inch pockets).

I don't know where you play but in all the good pool rooms I played in in the USA the majority of the tables were 4.5 with a few tables 4.25 for the action tables. Pros don't spend time playing on 5" pockets EVER unless it's an exhibition somewhere and that's the table they must play on.

But as the equipment continues to get more difficult, and/or the intensity of the moment increases (Mosconi Cup) these small fundamental flaws begin to show up.

Ok Chris I can see that but I still disagree that the American professional players are fundamentally flawed. I believe that when you get to world class level then it's more about nerves and rolls than it is about fundamentals.

As far as drilling is concerned, I had the exact same thought that you did. The funny thing about drilling is I've come to realize that A LOT (if not all) of practice time by great players is spent outside of the pool hall. I bet that the vast majority of top level players have a table in their homes or access to a table where they can spend a lot of time practicing. When they show up in a pool room - they are not there to practice. But for those guys that do hang out in the pool room all the time - I don't see a lot of legitimate practice going on.

Well I grew up in the pool room and me and the most of the people I knew would only do drills in the afternoons on a back table alone or maybe with a buddy. When I moved to Florida I found a great bar with four good tables that none of the action players knew about that had a daily free pool special if you bought lunch. I would go there almost every day and practice for about four hours. Then I would head out looking for action. People thought I was walking in cold and that they had the nuts because I wasn't loose. It was fantastic for me and I booked a lot of winners because of that.

This may be one of the last dirty little secrets in the pool world. All of the bangers sit around waiting to match up because they think that's what the pros do. Unbeknownst to them, the shortstops and up are at home practicing their butts off and when they are sitting around in the pool room they are ready to play.

Exactly.

Bottom line is - in the U.S. if the money ever comes along the fundamental flaws that I think I see will take care of themselves because the guys will more willing to put their games under the microscope. As it stands now, I think most of the guys don't really see the point in spending much additional time on such things.

I can agree that all professionals need coaches. Just like Darren Appleton went to someone to fix his stroke AFTER he won the World 10 ball. I think it's very difficult to truly be self-analytical when it comes to physical motions. You need a qualified outside observer who can identify and correct the mechanics. But I don't think it's because the Americans never had good mechanics to begin with. At some point the results speak for themselves, Johnny ran 13 racks against Busty once for example. You don't get there with bad mechanics. But like anything else getting to the top is one thing, staying there is something else. So in that I agree, everyone needs to stay in shape and the Americans don't really have anyone helping them to do that.

That's it...just my thoughts...I could be wrong.

In this debate no one is wrong. Everyone is making good points, some are just taking it to extremes that are unfair.

 

[BasementDweller]

Pressure makes the arm twitchy. I watched Johnny play up close and personal for hours two weeks ago. There is nothing wrong with his fundamentals. Same thing with Shane.

I mentioned previously that I thought Archer was rock solid. Shane is getting there too. I thought the other 3 have some work to do.

Here's what I think: The U.S. players start out banging balls with whatever technique they feel is comfortable. They start out with a lot of technique flaws (a lot of these techniques can be debated). Over the years as they practice and become great players a lot of these little quirks disappear and they finally come to a point where they look like they have good technique. So they start out with bad technique, become great players in spite of it, and end up with good technique. On the other hand, it appears the European players start out with good technique, as they practice and turn into great players their technique becomes great.

I know there is more than 1 way to skin a cat and all that, but this anything will work concept may be worth rethinking. I know it would have saved me a lot of time. About the only piece of universally accepted advice I got when I started out was to "STAY DOWN." That was about it. I think there are quite a few good instructors over here that are starting to figure it out.

 

[TheThaiger]

I mentioned previously that I thought Archer was rock solid. Shane is getting there too. I thought the other 3 have some work to do.

Here's what I think: The U.S. players start out banging balls with whatever technique they feel is comfortable. They start out with a lot of technique flaws (a lot of these techniques can be debated). Over the years as they practice and become great players a lot of these little quirks disappear and they finally come to a point where they look like they have good technique. So they start out with bad technique, become great players in spite of it, and end up with good technique. On the other hand, it appears the European players start out with good technique, as they practice and turn into great players their technique becomes great.

I know there is more than 1 way to skin a cat and all that, but this anything will work concept may be worth rethinking. I know it would have saved me a lot of time. About the only piece of universally accepted advice I got when I started out was to "STAY DOWN." That was about it. I think there are quite a few good instructors over here that are starting to figure it out.

Quite. It all boils down to this: would you encourage your son to cue like Rodney Morris?

All the rest is fluff.

 

[TheThaiger]

I can agree that all professionals need coaches. Just like Darren Appleton went to someone to fix his stroke AFTER he won the World 10 ball.

Who was the coach, what's his nationality, and how did he learn the game?

In this debate no one is wrong. Everyone is making good points, some are just taking it to extremes that are unfair.

And some are living in denial.

 

[TheThaiger]

I know that. But according to your logic he should have blazed right through the world championships in pool and won easily.

Well then where are all the lower tier snooker pros who are not making it on the snooker tour? Why don't they get out there and snap off all the easy pool money?

According to you the weak snooker pros ought to be more than enough to dominate the pool world. Where are they?

You also missed all the challenge matches back in the 80s and 90s where no snooker player ever beat the pool pro at 9 ball or 14.1.

Guess they just lost on purpose because it wasn't worth any money.

Where do you think Alex Pagulayan learned to play? He's Filipino and he learned to play in Canada and America. You really don't know much.

Ronnie Alcano came to America to play on the Joss Tour. He didn't dominate it. When he went to the Philippines to try to qualify for the World Championships he was considered second tier at best in the Philippines. He just came back from America and was forced to play in the qualifiers just to get a spot. And he had to play in several if I remember correctly and managed to win the last one that was held to get his spot.

Then he went through and won the event. So if a pool player with a pool player's stance can do it where are your second tier super players at with their rockstar fundamentals?????

Surely it's worth the easy hundred thousand for a week's work? Let's see, the top four at the WC is worth about 200kish. So send a team of second tier players and snap it off.

What are you dribbling on about now? I thought your rant about gambling was bizarre, but this is even more so.

There's no money in pool, fullstop. THAT is why our players concentrate on snooker.

Nobody plays *American* pool here. You don't seem to be able to grasp this. It's looked down upon. It's laughed at by snooker and English pool players. It is seen as a recreational activity undertaken by people who cannot cue. Everyone thinks it's too easy, no challenge. There are no more than a few hundred serious players in the entire UK, which is comprised of four countries, with 60 million people.

Please try to understand this.

Given this, we massively punch above our weight. If and when it's taken seriously by snooker & marbles enthusiasts, watch out.

 

[Slasher]

What are you dribbling on about now? I thought your rant about gambling was bizarre, but this is even more so.

There's no money in pool, fullstop. THAT is why our players concentrate on snooker.

Nobody plays *American* pool here. You don't seem to be able to grasp this. It's looked down upon. It's laughed at by snooker and English pool players. It is seen as a recreational activity undertaken by people who cannot cue. Everyone thinks it's too easy, no challenge. There are no more than a few hundred serious players in the entire UK, which is comprised of four countries, with 60 million people.

Please try to understand this.

Given this, we massively punch above our weight. If and when it's taken seriously by snooker & marbles enthusiasts, watch out.

I lived in the UK till 1991 and totally concur with this, outside of maybe London there were virtually no american tables to be found, no one played this game.

 

[TheThaiger]

Maybe this is what the game needs to move to a different level? Its pretty clear the pool scene is what it is here in north america and maybe europe and asia can help out our own pool scene here in north america some how?

I wonder how Lee Brett got on with his 'come and get me' plea. Could be a good career move for snooker coaches to move to the states.

I wonder if the spotlight wll fall on US coaches after the dust has settled?