Will the Team USA ever win another mosconi cup?

[KoolKat9Lives]

I think he should offer a public apology to Team Europe for his ungracious comments.

I totally agree with you!

I recorded Charlie's speech, wish i was motivated to download it to youtube and share, but, I'm not.

"Nothing against Europe, but they got the better rolls."

Crowd boos.

Charlie then covers up with something to the effect of "they played solidly, they were a very good team.... the rolls have a way of evening out in the end." He did say some nice things after being booed. Too late for me though.

I was stunned when he said that. Poor form. Confirmation #12 that he was not our best choice.

Does anyone know:

HOW WAS OUR CAPTAIN REALLY CHOSEN?

 

[sfleinen]

I recorded Charlie's speech, wish i was motivated to download it to youtube and share, but, I'm not.

"Nothing against Europe, but the got the better rolls."

Crowd boos.

Charlie then covers up with something to the effect of "they played solidly, they were a very good team.... the rolls have a way of evening out in the end."

I was stunned when he said that. Poor form. Confirmation #12 that he was not our best choice.

Does anyone know:

HOW WAS OUR CAPTAIN REALLY CHOSEN?

One word: cronyism.

-Sean

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

One word: cronyism.

-Sean

Barry Hearn? Luke Richards? Sky Sports?????

 

[SpotMonster22]

I recorded Charlie's speech, wish i was motivated to download it to youtube and share, but, I'm not.

"Nothing against Europe, but they got the better rolls."

Crowd boos.

Charlie then covers up with something to the effect of "they played solidly, they were a very good team.... the rolls have a way of evening out in the end." He did say some nice things after being booed. Too late for me though.

I was stunned when he said that. Poor form. Confirmation #12 that he was not our best choice.

I'm American, but was sitting on the Euro side, and I just about wanted to die when he said that. I think the point he was trying to make is that the team was facing a tough challenge mentally as the other team had been getting some good rolls, but that he helped them to shake that knowing they would even out. I'm not sure he meant to use that as an excuse but I think once he started talking the sour grapes started to show. Some people are better off not having to talk immediately after losing (which is why they shouldn't be a team captain).

I was grateful that they put Johnny on the mic afterward as he was very gracious, and appropriate.

In general, I was surprised how badly some of the players took the slop balls. I knew someone who used to have a little card with affirmations and one them was "I will not get upset when my opponent slops in balls." He would give this to his APA skill level 3 players. These guys are pros. They know how 9-ball works. Its not fun, especially when your team is losing, but wince, and then shrug it off and move on. The captain should not have to explain to the team that the rolls will even out.

 

[ironman]

No they wouldn't. These battle tested Europeans are better players than the Americans for the exact reason that Celtic indicated. They play the full international schedule and are far more accustomed to late match pressure against premier players than all the Americans other than Shane.

Short races, contrary to the opinion of some short-sighted posters on this forum, are a great test of pedigree. Your next mistake may cost you the match, and that's what makes the pressure almost unbearable for all but the battle tested champions.

The pedigree of the American players is below that of both the Europeans and Asians, and that's why we aren't beatng them anymore, not even on American soil. The last twelve events contested on American soil that had significant Asian and European representation relative to field size were these:

2010 US Open 9-ball won by Darren Appleton
2011 Derby City Banks won by Alex Pagulayan
2011 Derby City One Pocket won by Shane Van Boening
2011 Derby City 9-ball won by Dennis Orcullo
2011 Derby City 10-ball won by Rodney Morris
2011 Derby City Straight Pool won by Darren Appleton
2011 Super Billiards Expo 10-ball won by Ralf Souquet
2011US Open One Pocket won by Efren Reyes
2011US Open 10-ball won by Shane Van Boening
2011 Straight Pool Championshp won by Thorsten Hohmann
2011Turning Stone XVII won by Rodney Morris
2011 US Open 9-ball won by Daren Appleton

In short, American players have failed miserably even here in America, winning just four of the last twelve on the list above, and, to this point, offering a poor effort in the 2011 Mosconi Cup.

The American pros are no longer a significant force on the world stage of pool. They can live in denial about it, as you do, but that's not going to help them close the gap between themselves and the European and Asian stars.

.... and, wow, I had no idea what a phenomenal player Chris Melling is!

WOW, so how do you really feel?
Actually I have to agree with everything you say here. i feel American pool is in the crapper. Too may head cases and self serving individuals.
There is little or hardly any money to be made from pro pool and when you are forced to worry more about the money than the game or performance, troubles are near. It's like managing results vs activities.
i hear some even blaming it on fundamentals. Well there is room for conversation on this, but it is far from the problem.
This year seemed doomed with the Announcement of CW as the team leader. When he enters a room, most shift both hands to one pocket. It is mighty tough for a team in battle when they don't believe in the leader.
So many from recent past are now in the crapper with problems at home and just not really playing that much.
A race to 6 is tough enough so everyone needs to be motivated, focused, and eye of the tiger. Htis needs leaders, not mouth pieces.

 

[JoeyA]

WOW, so how do you really feel?
Actually I have to agree with everything you say here. i feel American pool is in the crapper. Too may head cases and self serving individuals.
There is little or hardly any money to be made from pro pool and when you are forced to worry more about the money than the game or performance, troubles are near. It's like managing results vs activities.
i hear some even blaming it on fundamentals. Well there is room for conversation on this, but it is far from the problem.
This year seemed doomed with the Announcement of CW as the team leader. When he enters a room, most shift both hands to one pocket. It is mighty tough for a team in battle when they don't believe in the leader.
So many from recent past are now in the crapper with problems at home and just not really playing that much.
A race to 6 is tough enough so everyone needs to be motivated, focused, and eye of the tiger. Htis needs leaders, not mouth pieces.

I doubt if CW's announcement as Captain of the Mosconi Cup Team doomed the team. Personally, I don't think so.

But as far as them not believing in CW as a leader that too is in the eye of the beholder.

After all, Johnny Archer is in Dragon Promotions stable as is Rodney Morris and a number of other top players. Shawn Putnam is with Johnny on most decisions so that leaves only two other players and I haven't heard any insinuations that either of them felt CW doomed the USA Mosconi Cup Team.

Just sayin'................

 

[JB Cases]

The players don't have any problem with Charlie. But if the fans don't think that all the negativity leveled against him pre-match for weeks didn't get to them then you're wrong.

It did get to them. They are people too and they read the forums. Although they would be better off if they didn't because the most disrespect for professional players happens on this forum by Americans.

 

[TheThaiger]

Absolutely ridiculous!!! There are so many GREAT American players of the past who did not have a snooker stance that EurUP will never catch up. In short, the snooker stance is very over rated when it comes to playing 9 ball, one pocket, and straight pool.

The US is not producing world class players because of the incentives to play pool in EurUP are much higher. It has nothing to do with the stance for crying out loud.

What incentives are there to play in Europe? There are NONE in the UK, and we've enough second or even third tier cueists to comfortably beat the players you put out in the Mosconi cup.

The snooker stance may not be strictly necessary for pool, but it gives you a damn good grounding in cuesports. Your foundations are too shaky to compete with players who have switched from snooker.

 

[JB Cases]

What incentives are there to play in Europe? There are NONE in the UK, and we've enough second or even third tier cueists to comfortably beat the players you put out in the Mosconi cup.

The snooker stance may not be strictly necessary for pool, but it gives you a damn good grounding in cuesports. Your foundations are too shaky to compete with players who have switched from snooker.

Well send your second and third tier players to Louisville next month and they can get played in all games on the pool table.

As Billy Incardona puts it you can count the money at the end and find out who won.

By your logic Steve Davis should have racked up many 9 ball World Championship titles. How many does he have?

That's right, zero.

When Matchroom was promoting the 9 Ball WC the prize money had gotten up to $100,000. Nothing prevented your second and third tier players from attempting to qualify to play in the main event. How many of them did that and won it?

That's right, zero.

How many of them got in and got past the round robin stages? Again I think it's zero.

Which player in the world did go through a qualifier and end up winning the World Championship?

Filipino Ronnie Alcano.

Where did Ronnie Alcano get his seasoning?

The Joss Tour in the USA.

 

[TheThaiger]

The great thing about the AZBilliards forums, is that one can view opinions from folks from all walks of life. Even extremists like you, Tim.

I think you know I'm a big advocate of fundamentals and body alignment / balance -- hence, snooker fundamentals. It just makes scientific and mechanical sense. However, to say that Team Europe's "far, far better" playership is due to snooker fundamentals -- as you've several times either inferred or outright stated -- is an indication of your extremist stance. None of the Team Europe players uses a snooker stance -- including Darren Appleton and Chris Melling, who actually have more of an English 8-ball ("Blackball") background, than they do snooker. And all of them use a Lance Perkins pool stance, not a snooker stance.

I think the problem with US players is manifold, with the most obvious being is has to do with the POOL CULTURE over here, more so than it does fundamentals. As Marco said in his blog, when he was over here, he noticed that pool is more of a smoky barroom pleasure activity, than being seen as a serious sport. Also, he never saw pool players practicing -- not "play practice" -- but drill practice to work on some aspect of one's game. This is for the most part true -- whether we Americans want to hear it or not. The truth hurts, and our team's performance at the Mosconi Cup only serves to drive that point solidly home.

Personally, I don't think your extremist stance of writing off the next decade to "learn snooker fundamentals" is going to fix the CULTURE issue. The fundamentals thing didn't play in 2009's Mosconi Cup, when the U.S. Team performed as a TEAM. The "better players" issue did make a difference though, as indicated by the slam-bang performance of Dennis Hatch. If Team USA is to have a hope against the increasing team performance of Team Europe, we *do* need to bring better players to the arena, including a better choice of team captain. (Although that latter part may be out of our hands, like it was this time around.)

-Sean

I prefer the terms visionary or even guru to extremist, Sean. :wink:

All UK players start off with snooker fundamentals, Appleton and Melling included. My point is, it's the grounding in snooker fundamentals that's important, not how players adapt their stance in later life. You simply don't need a snooker stance to play good 9 ball, but a player that's started out with one has the advantage over the player that hasn't. It's not just about stance either - snooker fundamentals lead to good, straight cueing. Some of your players cue dreadfully, even though they play great.

In short, your players play well despite their fundamentals. Ours play well because of their fundamentals. You're handicapping yourselves unnecessarily.

Your style of play is anomalous and archaic, even.

 

[JB Cases]

I prefer the terms visionary or even guru to extremist, Sean. :wink:

All UK players start off with snooker fundamentals, Appleton and Melling included. My point is, it's the grounding in snooker fundamentals that's important, not how players adapt their stance in later life. You simply don't need a snooker stance to play good 9 ball, but a player that's started out with one has the advantage over the player that hasn't. It's not just about stance either - snooker fundamentals lead to good, straight cueing. Some of your players cue dreadfully, even though they play great.

In short, your players play well despite their fundamentals. Ours play well because of their fundamentals. You're handicapping yourselves unnecessarily.

Your style of play is anomalous and archaic, even.

Then please explain why it's taken "your" players 20 years to make a dent in the international pool scene?

I was around in Germany when Steve Knight was the best pool player in England and he never was a threat to win any major event even in Germany. How come the English players weren't dominant in the 90s if every player is so grounded in fundamentals according to you?

It's only been since the IPT that we have seen English players trying to play "American" pool seriously. And of those only a handful have had any real success. The rest are about like most other pros, they have good events and not so good events.

You must not read your own forums because your forums are full of people whose "cueing action" is terrible and they look for ways to correct it.

The snooker stance is not any better than the pool stance. Any stance is fine as long as it's solid and the player can stroke freely and consistently.

 

[TheThaiger]

Well send your second and third tier players to Louisville next month and they can get played in all games on the pool table.

As Billy Incardona puts it you can count the money at the end and find out who won.

By your logic Steve Davis should have racked up many 9 ball World Championship titles. How many does he have?

That's right, zero.

When Matchroom was promoting the 9 Ball WC the prize money had gotten up to $100,000. Nothing prevented your second and third tier players from attempting to qualify to play in the main event. How many of them did that and won it?

That's right, zero.

How many of them got in and got past the round robin stages? Again I think it's zero.

Which player in the world did go through a qualifier and end up winning the World Championship?

Filipino Ronnie Alcano.

Where did Ronnie Alcano get his seasoning?

The Joss Tour in the USA.

Steve Davis was too busy getting rich playing snooker, just like all our second and third tier players aspire to. Swap the respective prize money around and you'd see a mass exodus from snooker to pool, with no American player in sight in either discipline.

Win all 5 pro events on the GB9 tour and you'd pocket $6,000 in a year. Judd Trump has just won $160k in one week.

Using the example of an over-the-hill snooker player, having a bit of fun with pool as his career slides, is extremely weak; as is citing a FILIPINO player being 'made' in America!

JB - the gift that never stops giving!

 

[TheThaiger]

Then please explain why it's taken "your" players 20 years to make a dent in the international pool scene?

I was around in Germany when Steve Knight was the best pool player in England and he never was a threat to win any major event even in Germany. How come the English players weren't dominant in the 90s if every player is so grounded in fundamentals according to you?

It's only been since the IPT that we have seen English players trying to play "American" pool seriously. And of those only a handful have had any real success. The rest are about like most other pros, they have good events and not so good events.

You must not read your own forums because your forums are full of people whose "cueing action" is terrible and they look for ways to correct it.

The snooker stance is not any better than the pool stance. Any stance is fine as long as it's solid and the player can stroke freely and consistently.

You answer your own questions. British players have only recently begun to take pool seriously, and any stance is fine as long as it's solid and the player can stroke freely and consistently, which your lot obviously can't.

ps What UK forums? There's only one, and I don't think there's ever been a thread called 'My game sucks. What can I do to put it right'. Very few students of the game over here.

That belies an interesting comparison. Us Brits from a snooker or English pool background own one cue, a piece of chalk and a bit of sandpaper, and that's it. We do not know what deflection is, or throw. We've never heard of CTE or BHE, or any other aiming system. We don't know what CIT is, or any other headache inducing technical acronyms needing a Doctorate in Physics. We play more and think less.

One cue. One piece of chalk. One bit of sandpaper. No quantum mechanics and no self help groups here.

Now think on.

 

[JB Cases]

You answer your own questions. British players have only recently begun to take pool seriously, and any stance is fine as long as it's solid and the player can stroke freely and consistently, which your lot obviously can't.

ps What UK forums? There's only one, and I don't think there's ever been a thread called 'My game sucks. What can I do to put it right'. Very few students of the game over here.

That belies an interesting comparison. Us Brits from a snooker or English pool background own one cue, a piece of chalk and a bit of sandpaper, and that's it. We do not know what deflection is, or throw. We've never heard of CTE or BHE, or any other aiming system. We don't know what CIT is, or any other headache inducing technical acronyms needing a Doctorate in Physics. We play more and think less.

One cue. One piece of chalk. One bit of sandpaper. No quantum mechanics and no self help groups here.

Now think on.

You just told us that ALL players in Britain start out with snooker stances. Now you are creating divisions.

And yes you have aiming systems. Back of the Ball, Fractional Aiming, Ghost Ball.

Tell you what, your best player, whoever that is has a standing invitation to play against America's best player in a race to 100 of ten ball in Las Vegas any day of the week. Since you feel that "your" players are the best ever then ship him to Las Vegas and snap up the money.

All your second and third tier players have all the action they can stand against the terrible American players.

Then when you have that easy money ship him to Philippines and bust all the gamblers there. I was told that the Puyats will bet up to $500,000 a match and I am sure that there is plenty more money to be had.

Then when you have busted the Philippines you can send your champion to Taiwan and get played there.

As you said, less talk and more action. Put your money where your mouth is and see if your heart can back up your logic.

Your players still have a long way to go to get a matching set of hardware to what the American players already have. But forget that, just come and get the money.

There will be roughly a quarter million dollars up for grabs in January at the DCC. Start there.

 

[JB Cases]

Steve Davis was too busy getting rich playing snooker, just like all our second and third tier players aspire to. Swap the respective prize money around and you'd see a mass exodus from snooker to pool, with no American player in sight in either discipline.

Win all 5 pro events on the GB9 tour and you'd pocket $6,000 in a year. Judd Trump has just won $160k in one week.

Using the example of an over-the-hill snooker player, having a bit of fun with pool as his career slides, is extremely weak; as is citing a FILIPINO player being 'made' in America!

JB - the gift that never stops giving!

I know that. But according to your logic he should have blazed right through the world championships in pool and won easily.

Well then where are all the lower tier snooker pros who are not making it on the snooker tour? Why don't they get out there and snap off all the easy pool money?

According to you the weak snooker pros ought to be more than enough to dominate the pool world. Where are they?

You also missed all the challenge matches back in the 80s and 90s where no snooker player ever beat the pool pro at 9 ball or 14.1.

Guess they just lost on purpose because it wasn't worth any money.

Where do you think Alex Pagulayan learned to play? He's Filipino and he learned to play in Canada and America. You really don't know much.

Ronnie Alcano came to America to play on the Joss Tour. He didn't dominate it. When he went to the Philippines to try to qualify for the World Championships he was considered second tier at best in the Philippines. He just came back from America and was forced to play in the qualifiers just to get a spot. And he had to play in several if I remember correctly and managed to win the last one that was held to get his spot.

Then he went through and won the event. So if a pool player with a pool player's stance can do it where are your second tier super players at with their rockstar fundamentals?????

Surely it's worth the easy hundred thousand for a week's work? Let's see, the top four at the WC is worth about 200kish. So send a team of second tier players and snap it off.

 

[bender_lu]

calm down dudes

the problem is, as statet, that the european players take pool as a sport (which includes lot of practice routines) and the americans take it as a game. without training (make the same ball over and over again, learn the standards etc) you can make it to the top.... it just takes longer.

the discussion about stances.... stand as it is comfortable for you and that provides you a clean, straight stroke. for some its a snooker stance, for people like me (1,93m) it would kill my back on a pool table

oh and steve davis won a very important match... against earl :embarrassed2:

 

[JB Cases]

calm down dudes

the problem is, as statet, that the european players take pool as a sport (which includes lot of practice routines) and the americans take it as a game. without training (make the same ball over and over again, learn the standards etc) you can make it to the top.... it just takes longer.

Well when it comes to pool Americans collectively hold more of the biggest titles than the Europeans do. So they have already been on top. In the Mosconi Cup it's 11 wins for America and 6 for Europe. Let's talk when Europe has caught up.

oh and steve davis won a very important match... against earl :embarrassed2:

Not to win a World Championship he didn't. He might have won a race to five in the Mosconi Cup but Earl has three World Championships in 9 Ball to Steve's none. Steve can flat out play as can every top snooker player. But they don't have to win against pool players in pool just because they can play top level snooker. We have been down this road many times.

World Class is World Class. You don't get to the point where you can break and run ten racks by not being a complete player. In other words the world's best snooker player and the world's best pool player are DEAD EVEN in pool. In snooker which is a harder game due to the pocketing, size of the balls and the size of the table the pool player has no chance. But on the pool table the pool player has at WORST an even chance and at best an edge in the knowledge department.

 

[bender_lu]

my statement about davis was a joke (smileys)

about the 11-6 in the MC... as it was said before, in the 90s europe didnt play much good pool while in the states it was very popular. so lets talk about how the situation is now, and NOW the new training methods, tests like PAT etc make young players develop REALLY fast (as i said, 100+ball runs with 17y, young guns running out multiple racks on a eurotour table at age of 16 (3-4 racks in a row).)

I didnt say americain pool is dead, it should just rethink if the "old way" (playing,playing,playing) shouldnt be replaced with playing,training,playing

i just try to give some constructive input instead of writing 1000 times "we owe more titles" "but we have so good fundamentals" blablabla.

take it or leave it but if pool is a sport you need training as in every other
sport. you cant play soccer without starting running

 

[JB Cases]

my statement about davis was a joke (smileys)

about the 11-6 in the MC... as it was said before, in the 90s europe didnt play much good pool while in the states it was very popular. so lets talk about how the situation is now, and NOW the new training methods, tests like PAT etc make young players develop REALLY fast (as i said, 100+ball runs with 17y, young guns running out multiple racks on a eurotour table at age of 16 (3-4 racks in a row).)

I didnt say americain pool is dead, it should just rethink if the "old way" (playing,playing,playing) shouldnt be replaced with playing,training,playing

i just try to give some constructive input instead of writing 1000 times "we owe more titles" "but we have so good fundamentals" blablabla.

take it or leave it but if pool is a sport you need training as in every other
sport. you cant play soccer without starting running

I understand what you are trying to say. But it doesn't add up. America has 12-16 year olds who run packages right now.

As I said many of you are reading WAY too much into this year's Mosconi Cup results.

When Niels Feijen wanted to get better he came to America to get some seasoning. He did drills out the ass with Ding Dong Daddy Bert Kinister.

Just because you don't see players in the US Pool rooms doing drills doesn't mean that they don't do them.

I spent ten years in Germany. I can tell you for a fact that in the hundreds of pool rooms I visited throughout Europe I never saw in any of them people diligently doing drills. Oh sure once in a while I'd see a player doing something but it's not as if there are billiard academies churning out future champions. I was a member of five different teams during that time. And even in those teams we rarely had structured practice.

The fact is that very very very very few of us on this forum know the daily habits of the people we talk about. So when you say that the Americans are lazy and don't practice you don't really know that do you? I mean I bet that there isn't a single person on this forum who can say that they know intimately how each player on the American team spends their days. Some know more than others for sure but no one knows all of it.

I want you to consider what your opinion would be IF the Americans had won?

What would be the excuse then? What if the Europeans had had a few more mistakes and a few more bad rolls and the score would have been 11:7 for them? Imagine that conversation and you can possibly see my point.

 

[jay helfert]

I prefer the terms visionary or even guru to extremist, Sean. :wink:

All UK players start off with snooker fundamentals, Appleton and Melling included. My point is, it's the grounding in snooker fundamentals that's important, not how players adapt their stance in later life. You simply don't need a snooker stance to play good 9 ball, but a player that's started out with one has the advantage over the player that hasn't. It's not just about stance either - snooker fundamentals lead to good, straight cueing. Some of your players cue dreadfully, even though they play great.

In short, your players play well despite their fundamentals. Ours play well because of their fundamentals. You're handicapping yourselves unnecessarily.

Your style of play is anomalous and archaic, even.

Tell this to the filipinos and Chinese players who are kicking everyone's ass! No question there are some great European players, but is it because of their stance or their grounding in Snooker. Not hardly, in fact they must embark on a learning curve to play 9-Ball that typically takes years! Why you see so many solid players coming out of Europe is more a matter of dedication to the game than anything else. They are single minded about their goals and doing what it takes to be better players. It's the same formula for success that makes winners in other sports as well.