Willie hoppe vs. Raymond ceulemans match-up poll

If both Willie Hoppe and Raymond Ceulemans were in their prime and they practiced on

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  • Poll closed .
zensteve

zensteve

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If both Willie Hoppe and Raymond Ceulemans were in their prime and they practiced on each others equipment sufficiently....who would be triumphant given enough matches to eliminate chance/luck. Say 10 races to 50 on each others equipment.

A. Willie Hoppe
B. Raymond Ceulemans

ATTENTION: Do not respond to this post. Respond to the poll that is set up
 
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zensteve said:
If both Willie Hoppe and Raymond Ceulemans were in their prime and they practiced on each others equipment sufficiently....who would be triumphant given enough matches to eliminate chance/luck. Say 10 races to 50 on each others equipment.

A. Willie Hoppe
B. Raymond Ceulemans

ATTENTION: Do not respond to this post. Respond to the poll that is set up
Click to expand...

Zen; You do understand what you are asking, right?
1. Old Brunswick unheated tables with Ivory balls, slower ALL wool cloths, Natural REAL 1845 rubber ( slower, longer angles) safeties included, (only 1 in a row).
2. I think we all understand the "Modern" game, rules and equipment.
3. I also think there should be a THIRD option in your poll, MATCH COULD GO EITHER WAY

I think it ONLY fair to include this info in your poll!

Number13cfan
 
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number13cfan said:
Zen; You do understand what you are asking, right?
1. Old Brunswick unheated tables with Ivory balls, slower ALL wool cloths, Natural REAL 1845 rubber ( slower, longer angles) safeties included, (only 1 in a row).
2. I think we all understand the "Modern" game, rules and equipment.
3. I also think there should be a THIRD option in your poll, MATCH COULD GO EITHER WAY

I think it ONLY fair to include this info in your poll!

Number13cfan
Click to expand...

Reminds me of the old Ceulemans - Boston Shorty story.

If Willie has a chance to win he will have to forget about deliberate safeties. This sort of play has little chance these days. Refer to Shorty's stab at it. I think it was somewhere around 50-3.

Either Champion can adapt to table conditions
 
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3kushn said:
Reminds me of the old Ceulemans - Boston Shorty story.

If Willie has a chance to win he will have to forget about deliberate safeties. This sort of play has little chance these days. Refer to Shorty's stab at it. I think it was somewhere around 50-3.

Either Champion can adapt to table conditions
Click to expand...

You're NOT really trying to compare "Shorty" to "Hoppe", get serious! :rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
Plus, they played on European tables in Vegas at that time, (MY MISTAKE, 3 OLD Brunswick tables) you're talking about "apples and oranges!" BTW, I believe, and I'm not sure, but, I think the RC vs LJ score was 60-11!

Number13cfan
 
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number13cfan said:
You're NOT really trying to compare "Shorty" to "Hoppe", get serious! :rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
Plus, they played on European tables in Vegas at that time, (MY MISTAKE, 3 OLD Brunswick tables) you're talking about "apples and oranges!" BTW, I believe, and I'm not sure, but, I think the RC vs LJ score was 60-11!

Number13cfan
Click to expand...

Not at all comparing Shorty to Hoppe except for the fact that Shorty was old school and thought he could safety his way to a win. "He's never seen American Safety Play Before" or something like that. Ceulemans was given a heads up on the comment. He proceeded to forget about being a gentleman and proceeded to trounce his opponent. Your score may be more the truth.

Safety strategy got thumped by modern strategy. That's the moral of the story.
It would be silly for Hoppe to try to try the same. If there's an advancement to the game strategy this is it. Aggressiveness coupled to controlling your opponents ball. Safety play lite.
 
3kushn said:
Not at all comparing Shorty to Hoppe except for the fact that Shorty was old school and thought he could safety his way to a win. "He's never seen American Safety Play Before" or something like that. Ceulemans was given a heads up on the comment. He proceeded to forget about being a gentleman and proceeded to trounce his opponent. Your score may be more the truth.

Safety strategy got thumped by modern strategy. That's the moral of the story.
It would be silly for Hoppe to try to try the same. If there's an advancement to the game strategy this is it. Aggressiveness coupled to controlling your opponents ball. Safety play lite.
Click to expand...

With no disrespect intended, I think you missed the point of my post.
1. Ceulemans game would reduce playing on the "Older equipment, style and rules.
2. Hoppe's game would indeed increase playing on the "Modern equipment, style, rules and format.
3. You have to realize, the ONLY reason there are more different aggressive shots being played NOW, is because of the, "Modern" equipment!

So, let me ask you one more question. Do you think the players of today would even come close to their averages on the, "Older" equipment?

Number13cfan
 
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number13cfan said:
With no disrespect intended, I think you missed the point of my post.
1. Ceulemans game would reduce playing on the "Older equipment, style and rules.
2. Hoppe's game would indeed increase playing on the "Modern equipment, style, rules and format.
3. You have to realize, the ONLY reason there are more different aggressive shots being played NOW, is because of the, "Modern" equipment!

So, let me ask you one more question. Do you think the players of today would even come close to their averages on the, "Older" equipment?

Number13cfan
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that averages have increased due in part to more consistent cushions, cloth, slates, and balls. If we introduce out of round ivory balls
and nappy cloth I'm sure some shots will either not be available or missed because of equipment irregularities. But even with todays equipment each
table has its own idiosyncrasies and the balls, cloth and rubber aren't 1000% perfect. Other factors can change the game from day to day on the same
table. One mark of a champion is adaptability to these changes.

So yes I think they could both adapt and averages may shift one way or another for whatever reason.

Since we're talking about something that could never happen and the point of contention is who was the better player, lets take out all the extraneous
factors and pretend each is quite at home with whatever the conditions and rules are.

Please don't forget my earlier point. When Hoppe played, games were to 50 or 60 points. Today they generally play much shorter games. This helps
raise the averages and a cause for more aggressive play. Mr. Ceulemans was a big part of why the games were shortened. Nobody could beat him in
the long game.
 
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3kushn said:
I have no doubt that averages have increased due in part to more consistent cushions, cloth, slates, and balls. If we introduce out of round ivory balls
and nappy cloth I'm sure some shots will either not be available or missed because of equipment irregularities. But even with todays equipment each
table has its own idiosyncrasies and the balls, cloth and rubber aren't 1000% perfect. Other factors can change the game from day to day on the same
table. One mark of a champion is adaptability to these changes.

So yes I think they could both adapt and averages may shift one way or another for whatever reason.

Since we're talking about something that could never happen and the point of contention is who was the better player, lets take out all the extraneous
factors and pretend each is quite at home with whatever the conditions and rules are.

Please don't forget my earlier point. When Hoppe played, games were to 50 or 60 points. Today they generally play much shorter games. This helps
raise the averages and a cause for more aggressive play. Mr. Ceulemans was a big part of why the games were shortened. Nobody could beat him in
the long game.
Click to expand...

This really is the old, "Ali vs Joe Louis" thing, We'll just have to agree to disagree!
But, with your own analogy, you must admit, the players of "Old" would of had their averages go up with the much shorter games and formats.

Number13cfan

P.S. I also did refrain from voting in the poll, I think revealing who voted for whom may cause even, MORE controversy, that's the last thing we need in this country to progress the game! JMO
 
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number13cfan said:
This really is the old, "Ali vs Joe Louis" thing, We'll just have to agree to disagree!
But, with your own analogy, you must admit, the players of "Old" would of had their averages go up with the much shorter games and formats.

Number13cfan

P.S. I also did refrain from voting in the poll, I think revealing who voted for whom may cause even, MORE controversy, that's the last thing we need in this country to progress the game! JMO
Click to expand...

I don't think there's much disagreement at all. What I first suggested was averages don't tell the story.

Too many other factors and nearly two different games.

Motocross: http://www.promotocross.com/mx/video/2013-lake-elsinore-450-moto-1-full-race-archive

VS

Trial Riding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWIbOj0GbOw
 
I'm calling a hypothetical dead heat.
The later players not only have better conditions, but they have a greater
accumulated knowledge to draw from.

So I feel that if you switched the birth dates....
...they both would have still dominated their eras.
 
pt109 said:
I'm calling a hypothetical dead heat.
The later players not only have better conditions, but they have a greater
accumulated knowledge to draw from.

So I feel that if you switched the birth dates....
...they both would have still dominated their eras.
Click to expand...

Sounds RIGHT to me!

Number13cfan
 
If the truth be known my motive in the poll had nothing to do with what I or anyone else thought. The intent was to have fun and participate. Nothing more nothing less. When you're talking about towering legends like these two, you can't help but give the right answer.
 
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