Winner Breaks..

Chili Palmer

AzB Gold Member
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I think that goes for all sides. My take on the only two possibilities that have a chance to be chosen by a promoter:
Alternate: perceived as more fair and you are guaranteed to see both players at the table
Winner: traditional and thought to be more exciting

A small problem for me with alternate is that I sometimes forget who won the flip/lag.:sleep:

The choice will remain with the promoter/organizer. Anyone who really wants to influence the choice will need to contact one of those.

At carom billiards the problem of only one player playing in a match is larger. At the "small" games where no cushion is required, the skill level of the champions got to the point where the breaker would often run out the game. In the most impressive case of this, Ludo Dielis ran 400-and-out in his first five matches of a European championship (in the version called 18.2 balkline in English). He then missed after 10 in his next match for 2010 consecutive points with only one miss.

The carom people fixed this by letting the loser of the lag start from a break shot and try to tie, which is called "equal innings". There is also a shootout possibility but some tournament formats can handle tied matches.


Winner of the lag breaks on odd games in alternate breaking (I feel weird having to say that to you :))
 

Bob Jewett

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Winner of the lag breaks on odd games in alternate breaking (I feel weird having to say that to you :))
Well, yes, but after the sixth match of the day, and you're playing the same person for the second time, how are you supposed to remember who won the most recent flip? I suppose I could write "you're the odd breaker" on my hand. But then I'd have to remember to scratch out the old reminder and write the new one as appropriate. See? It just doesn't end. I can usually remember who just won a game. o_O
 

Chili Palmer

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Well, yes, but after the sixth match of the day, and you're playing the same person for the second time, how are you supposed to remember who won the most recent flip? I suppose I could write "you're the odd breaker" on my hand. But then I'd have to remember to scratch out the old reminder and write the new one as appropriate. See? It just doesn't end. I can usually remember who just won a game. o_O

LOL, I only know that because I too suck at remembering who breaks but luckily :))) I played in the APA and they know who is supposed to pay for the rack and when so it's always in my head.

After being away 14 years I got back into playing by playing in a decent size tournament (large enough for a calcutta) and it was alternate break but the opponent racks.

Win a game so think rack and break - nope, not always.
Lose a game so think rack and sit, nope, well maybe, who's turn is it?
Win a game and think alternate break so sit down, nope - gotta rack this one.
Lose a game and think alternate break so think it's my break so start racking - nope...

Considering I hadn't played competitive pool in almost 15 years I couldn't remember if I was supposed rack, break, or just sit down!

It was a rough reintroduction to pool...and I lost 5-3 :(
 

Bob Jewett

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I am with you, Bob. Basketball would be a much better game if the ball was turned back over to the team that just scored. After all, why punish a team for scoring? Imagine a "basketball package". It would be great!
Just think.... Chamberlain with a 150-pack in a 211-7 win. That would set the eye-ballers abuzz. The main downside is that you would have to inbound at the far end each time. Or, you could switch ends each inbounds.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I think that goes for all sides. My take on the only two possibilities that have a chance to be chosen by a promoter:
Alternate: perceived as more fair and you are guaranteed to see both players at the table
Winner: traditional and thought to be more exciting
Key word to the discussion bolded and underlined.

Endless racks of roughly the same pattern isn't exciting. If we were to be completely honest, we can assume that any pro worth their salt is going to finish the rack if they get clean on the 1 ball after the break >75% of the time when the template is in use. I will admit seeing a player mount a comeback and steal the momentum is entertaining, but how often are both players in such a gear...?

I won't equate a battle of holding serve to "exciting", but it does present greater opportunity for pressure situations.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
You are never out of it with winner breaks and this creates a lot of excitement watching it.
The pessimist would say that the guy sitting down will never be in it, unless the other guy screws up...lol

When Shane was being beat up by Oliver, there was the dynamic you're speaking of. Shane can at any moment string together countless racks and pull out a set. Shane/Shaw/Wu/Filler aren't the norm, they are outliers. You can't any shouldn't expect a <800 player to "never be out of it".
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's what losers say
Nonsense. You can say well done to the winner whatever the format. If it's winner breaks and my opponent runs out the set/match then I'm the first to say congratulations. Same with alternate break when I lose. When I win I don't say "you loser" to my opponent. Do you have an argument for winner breaks other than the macho one?
 
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middleofnowhere

Registered
I think that goes for all sides. My take on the only two possibilities that have a chance to be chosen by a promoter:
Alternate: perceived as more fair and you are guaranteed to see both players at the table
Winner: traditional and thought to be more exciting

A small problem for me with alternate is that I sometimes forget who won the flip/lag.:sleep:

The choice will remain with the promoter/organizer. Anyone who really wants to influence the choice will need to contact one of those.

At carom billiards the problem of only one player playing in a match is larger. At the "small" games where no cushion is required, the skill level of the champions got to the point where the breaker would often run out the game. In the most impressive case of this, Ludo Dielis ran 400-and-out in his first five matches of a European championship (in the version called 18.2 balkline in English). He then missed after 10 in his next match for 2010 consecutive points with only one miss.

The carom people fixed this by letting the loser of the lag start from a break shot and try to tie, which is called "equal innings". There is also a shootout possibility but some tournament formats can handle tied matches.
All you have to do to know whose break it is, is just look at the score.
Winner of the lag breaks on odd games in alternate breaking (I feel weird having to say that to you :))
At the beginning of the match the score is 0 to 0. The first breaker breaks on even number score.

Rack two the score is 1 to 0 (odd number) and the second player breaks and so on.
 
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middleofnowhere

Registered
what are those? just curious, i've never played it, nor considered it
It happens toward the end of the match. If one player is trailing by say 3 games, his chances of winning the match get very very low.
At the point one player gets on the hill, the trailing player is now spotting the player on the hill the rest of the breaks in the match.
In other words, a player trailing by only 2 games is giving the player on the hill three breaks to win one game.
If we are talking really good players, the trailing players chances of winning are probably single digit %.

The break is bigger then just running out. It gives the breaker should they make a ball on the break also the first defensive moves as well even if they only run a few balls but can't get out.
 
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skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It happens toward the end of the match. If one player is trailing by say 3 games, his chances of winning the match get very very low.
At the point one player gets on the hill, the trailing player is now spotting the player on the hill the rest of the breaks in the match.
In other words, a player trailing by only 2 games is giving the player on the hill three breaks to win one game.
If we are talking really good players, the trailing players chances of winning are probably single digit %.

got it. i suppose on the same note, a "trailing player breaks" would be the most fair?
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
got it. i suppose on the same note, a "trailing player breaks" would be the most fair?
Yea probably, if you are looking for a way to handicap the player on the hill. Make him give up the rest of the breaks. The overall fairness is debatable. Does the player who got on the hill first deserve to be penalized? shouldn't he be allowed to finish his deserved victory if he can.

Suppose the guy on the hill is the weaker player, who played a little over his head had a few good rolls and is now in a position to beat the superstar. Now he has to spot the superstar the rest of the breaks. There is always two sides to a coin.
 

Chili Palmer

AzB Gold Member
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All you have to do to know whose break it is, is just look at the score.

At the beginning of the match the score is 0 to 0. The first breaker breaks on even number score.

Rack two the score is 1 to 0 (odd number) and the second player breaks and so on.
Correct, that’s what I was saying in my post to Bob.
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
Correct, that’s what I was saying in my post to Bob.
Yes, regardless how you look at it be it the game number (1) or score number (0 to 0). The answer in on the score board. Of course if they can't remember who won the toss or lag and broke first their in trouble. I used to have tournaments every week with C and D players. If one of these guys ran a rack it would be a news flash. They liked playing rotate the break.

It's funny I would see some kind of discussion going on and go over. They would finish a game and could not remember who just broke. I would ask who won the coin toss at the beginning. They usually knew. I would just look at the score and tell whose break it was. Im not sure most of the time they knew how I knew.

These were fun tournaments. I put up $200 prize fund and there was no entry fee. First 36 to sign up were in. Single elimination race to 6 it moved along pretty fast.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
Here is a crazy, potentially stupid, idea. What if winner breaks 9/10 ball had an equal innings rule? If the player who loses the lag loses the match, they get one final break. They have to run out the match or they lose. If they manage to run the required racks to tie up the match you go to a tie breaker.
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
Here is a crazy, potentially stupid, idea. What if winner breaks 9/10 ball had an equal innings rule? If the player who loses the lag loses the match, they get one final break. They have to run out the match or they lose. If they manage to run the required racks to tie up the match you go to a tie breaker.
Someone who's a three cushion player would have to explain it. But in some three cushion tournaments there's a point at which one player gets to start from an opening break to run as many as he can. And I don't pretend to even know why whether it's the tie the game win the game to equal the innings or what I'm not sure.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
Someone who's a three cushion player would have to explain it. But in some three cushion tournaments there's a point at which one player gets to start from an opening break to run as many as he can. And I don't pretend to even know why whether it's the tie the game win the game to equal the innings or what I'm not sure.
That’s where I got the idea. From memory, If you lose the lag and your opponent scores the game point, you get to try and even the score starting from the break off position. If they do manage to tie the match, there is a tie breaker. Both players get a chance to shoot from the opening position. Whoever runs the most, wins the match.

It seems to rarely change the outcome of the match since if the score difference is more than 5 points, it seems to be a tall order to run so many points under duress. But I remember the 2018 world championship final ended in a tie breaker and it was pretty exciting.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I see thread turning direction of what everyone favorite break format is but I would ask what you would to WATCH?
I can´t watch long alternative break format matches myself and i am hardcore pool player/fan. I know people like to think what is fair and so on..
Let´s forget what is fair but what is most entertaining format for you? Heck I think i never tried or seen game been played loser breaks format but i would probably like that more than alternative...
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
I see thread turning direction of what everyone favorite break format is but I would ask what you would to WATCH?
I can´t watch long alternative break format matches myself and i am hardcore pool player/fan. I know people like to think what is fair and so on..
Let´s forget what is fair but what is most entertaining format for you? Heck I think i never tried or seen game been played loser breaks format but i would probably like that more than alternative...
Winner breaks but win by two.
 
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