Winner Breaks..

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I have a friend who put a 6-pack on me playing 8ball on a Diamond barbox.
A teammate of mine played in an 8-ball tournament a while back that used a race to 5 winner break format. $100 entry I think...

His opponent told him before the lag he was excited to try out his new breaker. My buddy won the lag, his opponent got to the table once to hold his stuff while he put it all back in his case. 5 and out from the lag...

Tough way to lose a set and your entry fee...lol
 

BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
A teammate of mine played in an 8-ball tournament a while back that used a race to 5 winner break format. $100 entry I think...

His opponent told him before the lag he was excited to try out his new breaker. My buddy won the lag, his opponent got to the table once to hold his stuff while he put it all back in his case. 5 and out from the lag...

Tough way to lose a set and your entry fee...lol

I played a 9ball tournament a couple of weeks ago, races to 5, alternating breaks. I played well, but when two players simply take turns running out, the winner is usually whoever wins the flip for that first break, unless someone breaks dry or breaks and scratches.
 
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BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
A teammate of mine played in an 8-ball tournament a while back that used a race to 5 winner break format. $100 entry I think...

His opponent told him before the lag he was excited to try out his new breaker. My buddy won the lag, his opponent got to the table once to hold his stuff while he put it all back in his case. 5 and out from the lag...

Tough way to lose a set and your entry fee...lol

Sounds like your buddy needs to work on his lagging skills. Maybe someone will invent a lag cue...Lol. Just kidding.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
I think there should be distinction here between what is appropriate for televised pro events vs amateur/pro ams. It’s understandable that when amateurs are involved you want them to have a fair chance to play. But at televised pro events, the expectation should be that you should be capable of stringing racks together if you want to be competitive. Not that running out sets is really a concern since those occurances are rarer in televised pro competition than 147s, 150 and outs and even runs of 20+ in 3 cushion.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Sounds like your buddy needs to work on his lagging skills. Maybe someone will invent a lag cue...Lol. Just kidding.
lol... My buddy won the lag and ran out the set. The poor bastard with the new break cue didn't get to hit a ball.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
But at televised pro events, the expectation should be that you should be capable of stringing racks together if you want to be competitive.
Yes of course you should and need to have BnR proficiency. However there are other aspects to this game that should be highlighted as well. We do those aspects a dis-service by allowing the best to string racks together endlessly. It's not a perfect means to an end, but alternate break takes players out of BnR rhythm. Battles are interesting.... Lop sided contests are not.

The use of the triangle in the World's was enough to randomize the break out come. It didn't prevent packages from being performed, but there was that human (ref) element that could potentially cause a hiccup.

Template/winner breaks is a great way to bore viewers. "oh there's the wing ball", "oh he's on the one in the corner"... lol... Could almost use a single commentary sound bite after each break.
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But at televised pro events, the expectation should be that you should be capable of stringing racks together if you want to be competitive.
But you can do this anyway even in an alternate break format. You just run out successive racks that you break, and if you opponent is weaker on the night you pick up some racks in between when you don't break. Arguably more difficult because you are never "in stroke" and therefore it's a better test.
 

chefjeff

Nazis are back.
Silver Member
Better is this thing called competition, where both players get a chance to show their stuff, back and forth. You know, a competitive match, not a practice routine. No one knows who will win and the next runout could be THE game...or not.

There's a reason Sundays are real nfl games and not practice routines where gosh, the kicker kicked through 20 in a row! wow, what excitement! NOT.


Jeff Livingston
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How can anyone argue that if you have not missed a ball, or committed a foul, that you do not continue to shoot ?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Lol. I agree. But, in tennis, when you're serving, your opponent at least has a chance. They aren't just sitting in a chair on the sidelines whatching you serve into an empty service court box.
Psychologically it may be different. In terms of how the probabilities work, it's the same. The server/breaker has an advantage. And I suppose at tennis you could consider an ace the same as a break and run.
 

chefjeff

Nazis are back.
Silver Member
How can anyone argue that if you have not missed a ball, or committed a foul, that you do not continue to shoot ?

How can anyone argue that a making touchdown without punting means the same team doesn't get to continue on offense?

It's called: competition. It involves MORE THAN ONE PLAYER.

If pool wants money it has to have fans. Fans like both players and want to see both players play. der.

There's your argument. What say ye?


Jeff Livingston
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Should be winner breaks. It's good to see a player string together racks and it gives the player who is behind a chance.
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How can anyone argue that a making touchdown without punting means the same team doesn't get to continue on offense?
Football is a different game than pool.

Why not compare it to racing (after all we call it a race to X) and have everyone shoot at the same time? See: no, this simply won't work.
 

chefjeff

Nazis are back.
Silver Member
If I pay to watch a pool match and my guy gets no shot, I want my money back.


Jeff Livingston
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
Switch to 10 ball and forget about it. No wing ball problem, a bit harder to string racks. Let's face it, 9 ball for top players has become a pretty easy game. That may be the problem.

Don't like hill hill, that's easily solved just play win by two.

9 ball is really popular game played all over the world in pool rooms everywhere. Who breaks and all that doesn't even matter half these guys need five innings to get out anyway. 9 ball might be just too easy a game for the pros switch to 10 ball..
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How can anyone argue that if you have not missed a ball, or committed a foul, that you do not continue to shoot ?
I guess with arguments based on logic and an understanding of the game. There are valid arguments for winner breaks but "keep shooting" isn't one of them. I realise, and respect, that you prefer winner breaks. But please either say that you just prefer it or back it up with a justification.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Nah I don't subscribe to that logic when using the template.
...
I have a spreadsheet. You put in the chance A will win on his break and the chance B will win on his break. You choose winner or loser breaks format, the length of the match and the chance that each will win the lag. The spreadsheet calculates the chance that each possible score will occur -- such as A will be ahead at 6-2 after the 8th game in a race to 9 and will be breaking -- and the chance of each player winning the match. If you know how to use a spreadsheet, you're welcome to have a copy.

Here is an example of winner breaks, race to 9.

CropperCapture[706].png


CropperCapture[707].png


In this example, the chance that the score will be A=4 and B=3 with A to break during the match is 11.7631%. The same score with B to break has an 8.1616% chance of happening.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
By the way, I'm not trying to argue in favor of either format. I'm just pointing out that the format doesn't favor either player. Choice of the format should be based on other factors, such as perceived fairness or making a more exciting show for the spectators.
 
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