Winning and Losing - Separating the process from the outcome

sixpack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The recent thread on clapping on an 8-ball scratch made me think about how I think about winning and losing in pool vs. how some other people might. And I don't know if my way helps you win more or less, but I know that I enjoy it more and I seem to get much more wins out of my game than many people I know.

Not to brag, but to give some perspective. I have won hundreds of bar tournaments and probably thousands of league matches. (I've lost my share too) In addition I've gambled and won and lost a lot. I've beaten a lot of players who were much better than me and lost to a lot of players that are much worse than me. That's just pool and the first step is to accept that.

When I was still struggling trying to win my first tournament I had an old-timer tell me that it was easy to learn to play pool, but learning how to win at pool, well that's a whole 'nother story. I spent years trying to figure out what he meant and thinking about it changed my approach to the game.

I also shared in another thread recently an interview I heard with an FAA safety official who said that in airplane evacuation trials (where they put people in seats and simulate a crash landing and have everyone evacuate) they do it two ways. The first way they offer incentives to everyone for everyone getting off the plane safely. In other words, if everyone deplanes in under 2 minutes then everyone gets $20.

The other scenario is they offer $100 to the first 5 people to get off the plane.

The interesting and unexpected result was that when they ran multiple trials with the same people, the same 5 (or whatever number) people got off the plane first in every trial...NO MATTER WHERE THEY WERE SEATED. In other words, they won regardless of any seating position benefit.

I think winning in pool is very similar. You can talk about A, B, C players and how A players can run multiple racks etc...but the truth is, all of those qualifications go out the window when competing. I've seen matches of pros where neither player ran out a rack. I've also seen matches where one person ran out from everywhere and lost to a player who played a couple of safeties and got a lucky roll here and there while not missing key shots.

Personally, I had an experience where I showed up in a strange town and played a pool tournament with some pretty good players in it. I played some of the worst pool I've ever played. My CB speed was off and I couldn't make a ball. But, I ended up winning the tournament. Why? Because I was able to play clean, by that I mean play around my weaknesses and just let the other players beat themselves while making sure I didn't beat myself.

So, for whatever it's worth, here are my thoughts about winning at pool:

1) Winning has to be important. You have to strive to win with every shot, every turn at the table. Or you won't. For the most part. In other words, you have to respect the game, respect your opponent and most of all, respect the shot you're about to take.

2) It's about controlling the game, not the cueball. "You study the watch, I study you." (Color of Money). Knowing which shots you'll miss is more important than making or missing shots. If you are not hitting a certain shot well, then duck it. Don't try to force it out unless you're mad at your money. Play the other player into mistakes and avoid making your own. Good money players will NEVER shoot a shot that might break out an opponent's ball unless they have a safety valve or a guaranteed out. Winning pool day after day, night after night is about lessening the risk of losing.

3) Pool really comes down to luck. Luck determines the outcome of every match. The more skill you have, the less luck you need to win and the more luck the other guy needs to beat you. Think about that and accept it before you read on...
What I mean by that is if you can run several racks, then when you get to the table, you need a shot to get going on the several racks. If your opponent misses and leaves you 6 balls to run out, you need luck to give you a runout that is within your skill to run out. So, the more you develop your skill, the less luck you need. If you're having bad luck, it just simply means that your skills are not good enough to win with the luck your getting. If you're good enough to run a set out from the opening break and you're playing a guy who is the same level, the race will be determined by the coin toss.

4) Detach yourself from the outcome. In the 8-ball scratch clapping thread, there were many responses that it's bad form to clap if your opponent scratches on the 8-ball. Why? What if you played a race to one and lost the coin toss and your opponent ran out? Is that luck? So where do you draw the line? The sentiment seems to be centered around 'earning' it. The problem with that is that you never 'earn' it. Just like you never don't 'earn' it. You get opportunities and you use your skill to the best of your ability to win the game. If you come up short. Well, that is what happened.

It's really no different to lose any kind of way than another. Either you win or you lose. Trying to qualify different types of winning and losing is a strategy for losing. Once you start ranking different wins and losses, then some become acceptable and some become less acceptable. In other words, if you lose a certain way then it's okay because it's luck, but if you win a certain way then it doesn't count as much because you didn't 'earn' it. It's a short journey from there to playing excuses in your head before you have even lost yet. We've all done it. You know what I mean, you're playing a guy who gets three 9-ball breaks on you and then the 4th break going to 5 he doesn't make a ball but leaves you safe. All of the sudden you hear the voice in your head telling your friends "That ****** got lucky on me with 3 9ball breaks and then the 4th one I didn't have a shot." Trust me, as soon as you hear that voice, stop, refocus, ask yourself how you want the story to end. You'll change the story from the above to "And even though he did all that, I ran three racks to get it to even and then I won." That will help you respect what you're doing, focus on the task at hand, give you hope and give you the best chance to win.

5) It's all practice. I've said this on here a bunch, but it bears repeating. Unless you're playing for your life (or life's savings), every gambling match, tournament and league game are practice. I remember before I won my first tournament I got into the finals a bunch and lost several in a row. The same thing happened to several of my friends. It's actually pretty common. What separates you is how you handle it. One of my friends 'hated' getting second. And you know what happened to him, he stopped getting in the finals and hence, hardly ever won tournaments.

I thought about it one night on the way home from a tourney where I got second AGAIN (I think it was about my 6th time) and I asked myself how I could win. The answer was easy, keep getting in the finals until you figure it out. So that's what I did. Every time I got in the finals I tried to win. If I lost, I just recognized it for what it was, a process. A practice run that got me one step closer to winning. What's amazing is that once I broke through and learned how to win in the finals. I went on a rampage and won a bunch of tournaments. I knew something most of my opponents in the finals didn't. I knew that I had learned how to win. I knew I had practice. And I knew they didn't.

I know that's a long post, but I wanted to get it out there and I hope it helps some folks. I'd appreciate hearing other people's thought's on the subject as well.

~rc
 
Great read, I rarely spend time to read posts that long.

Basically, you are talking about what it means to become a mature competitor.

This is what we should all strive to become. It's a different path for everyone.
 
Thanks guys!

Hey Cuebacca...you're in my neck of the woods, do we know each other?

~rc
 
Thanks guys!

Hey Cuebacca...you're in my neck of the woods, do we know each other?

~rc

No, I don't think we've ever met that I'm aware of. I think I remember reading that you live in the East Bay, right? I live in Sonoma County and don't make it to tournaments outside of the North Bay all that often. If you'll be at the Jointed Cue next weekend though, let me know and I'll introduce myself. :cool:
 
No, I don't think we've ever met that I'm aware of. I think I remember reading that you live in the East Bay, right? I live in Sonoma County and don't make it to tournaments outside of the North Bay all that often. If you'll be at the Jointed Cue next weekend though, let me know and I'll introduce myself. :cool:

Ah. Yes, I live in Alameda.

I won't be there. Weekends in are tough with my business so I don't get to too many weekend tourneys. But business is down a bit this year so I'm going to try to get to more later in the summer.

~rc
 
Ah. Yes, I live in Alameda.

I won't be there. Weekends in are tough with my business so I don't get to too many weekend tourneys. But business is down a bit this year so I'm going to try to get to more later in the summer.

~rc

PM sent. Looks like you do really nice work. Next time I hear of anyone getting married, I'll tell them to check out your site.
 
Enjoyable read sixpack. More people need to look at pool this way. Too many people beat themselves up mentally and lose concentration on the goal of winning. Remember that your playing the balls on the table not your opponent!:grin-square:
 
Spoken like a true champion. I had a similar experience. The post is long because you remember what it took to start winning and it doesn't happen over night.
 
Enjoyable read sixpack. More people need to look at pool this way. Too many people beat themselves up mentally and lose concentration on the goal of winning. Remember that your playing the balls on the table not your opponent!:grin-square:

Thanks djp. I enjoy pool much more since I stopped beating myself up :) Sometimes my league team would like me to beat myself up more.

Spoken like a true champion. I had a similar experience. The post is long because you remember what it took to start winning and it doesn't happen over night.

I don't think of myself as a champion, but I will say that I get more wins 'pound for pound' from my game than almost anyone.

PM sent. Looks like you do really nice work. Next time I hear of anyone getting married, I'll tell them to check out your site.

:) Thanks CB. I will take special care of anyone who you send to me.

~rc
 
Amen!

A win is a win....period. Someone once told me..."Show me a person who states that they do not care if they win or lose....and I will show you a loser!" This is so true.
 
best informational post I have read on here in ages

(clipped for length)
I know that's a long post, but I wanted to get it out there and I hope it helps some folks. I'd appreciate hearing other people's thought's on the subject as well.

~rc

This is simply a great post!
Hu
 
A win is a win....period. Someone once told me..."Show me a person who states that they do not care if they win or lose....and I will show you a loser!" This is so true.

This is far from the essence of the thread.

Everyone takes their lumps, some just get up and come back for more until they arrive at where they feel accomplished.
 
(clipped for length)


This is simply a great post!
Hu

Thanks Hu!

This is far from the essence of the thread.

Everyone takes their lumps, some just get up and come back for more until they arrive at where they feel accomplished.

I think there's a balance. Definitely winning is everything. But at the same time, you try your best and if you don't win, you try to learn and move on. No time for being a bad sport.

This thread is prefect timing for where I'm at with my game.

Thank you, Sir.

Awesome! Hope it helps.

~rc
 
A win is a win....period. Someone once told me..."Show me a person who states that they do not care if they win or lose....and I will show you a loser!" This is so true.

I think it's about balance. It's important to maintain the integrity of winning. And you HAVE to respect and strive to win with every shot.

But, there is no time for being a bad loser. You just accept, learn and move on to do better next time.

I always wondered what it is about the human psyche that makes us practice a shot over and over and if we miss, then we adjust and try it again. But somehow, if we lose a match. That's it, it's over. Shouldn't we just adjust and try again the same way we do with an individual shot?

If we applied the same practice mentality to our ability to compete in matches as we do any other skill we use to build our game, I think we'd be better players AND have more fun.

~rc
 
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I two track a bit

Sounds odd I guess but I two track a bit. Winning is one issue and I am battling for a win regardless of how I play. At the same time, I can fairly evaluate my performance and say I was extremely fortunate to place where I did or that I earned my placing.

I do know there are bad rolls but I believe that almost all of them after the break are preventable so bad rolls rarely enter into my calculations of how I play. If the other player seems to get a roll after missing I have to at least suspect that he intended to. I never "get a bad roll" on my shots, any bad roll was my doing. I take credit for my successes, I give myself the blame for my failures. I don't dwell on them but by taking responsibility for poor performances also I can accept them and move on. When people blame anything or everything else external for their losses they are in denial and will have much more trouble moving on.

Hu


I think it's about balance. It's important to maintain the integrity of winning. And you HAVE to respect and strive to win with every shot.

But, there is no time for being a bad loser. You just accept, learn and move on to do better next time.

I always wondered what it is about the human psyche that makes us practice a shot over and over and if we miss, then we adjust and try it again. But somehow, if we lose a match. That's it, it's over. Shouldn't we just adjust and try again the same way we do with an individual shot?

If we applied the same practice mentality to our ability to compete in matches as we do any other skill we use to build our game, I think we'd be better players AND have more fun.

~rc
 
Sounds odd I guess but I two track a bit. Winning is one issue and I am battling for a win regardless of how I play. At the same time, I can fairly evaluate my performance and say I was extremely fortunate to place where I did or that I earned my placing.

I do know there are bad rolls but I believe that almost all of them after the break are preventable so bad rolls rarely enter into my calculations of how I play. If the other player seems to get a roll after missing I have to at least suspect that he intended to. I never "get a bad roll" on my shots, any bad roll was my doing. I take credit for my successes, I give myself the blame for my failures. I don't dwell on them but by taking responsibility for poor performances also I can accept them and move on. When people blame anything or everything else external for their losses they are in denial and will have much more trouble moving on.

Hu

Exactly! When I gambled a lot I felt like I had a split personality. A player and a backer. The player believed he could win no matter what. The backer made the games and tried to be more of a numbers guy. The player would do everything possible to win and any anger or outbursts were the player. The money guy took it all in stride. The balance for me was figuring out which one should be in control at any given time.

~rc
 
Bump. Somebody just repped me on this post and I hadn't read it in a while. It was good for me to read so I thought I'd bump it in case it might help anyone else.

~rc
 
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