tedkaufman said:
Excellent point. This is a practice I try to adopt, but I need to get better at it. Two chances to get just right on a demanding shot are undeniably better than one.
-Andrew
Winning vs. Learning
- Thread starter Andrew Manning
- Start date
Excellent point. This is a practice I try to adopt, but I need to get better at it. Two chances to get just right on a demanding shot are undeniably better than one.
-Andrew
VIProfessor said:
The benefits of playing straight pool for an 8-ball player can't be overemphasized. There are so many straight pool moves--complex combination/caroms/throws, breakouts, control of all balls, and use of all pockets, not to mention patterns, including key balls (and key ball to the key ball), management of halves of the table and overall position play--that I really can't think of any training for 8-ball that would show greater results.
Andrew Manning said:
The best thing about this is it lessens the pressure to be perfect. It's so much easier to get right the first time when you know you'll get another chance.
I just think at this stage you're going to learn a lot more just going for it. You learn the percentages better. There is an art to running balls. Each table is a puzzle waiting to be solved.
However, there is a far greater art to winning by NOT running out. I think all the top players got where they were based on an awesome offense, but they stayed there by learning the fine art of defensive strategy.
Even Earl and Bustamante, who were the biggest "go fer it's" I ever seen, have adopted defensive strategies over time.
My next goal is to improve my defensive thinking. I have to hone my strategic knowledge. Some day I want people to fear playing me not when they are sitting in the chair, but when they have to come to the table.
Chris
However, there is a far greater art to winning by NOT running out. I think all the top players got where they were based on an awesome offense, but they stayed there by learning the fine art of defensive strategy.
Even Earl and Bustamante, who were the biggest "go fer it's" I ever seen, have adopted defensive strategies over time.
My next goal is to improve my defensive thinking. I have to hone my strategic knowledge. Some day I want people to fear playing me not when they are sitting in the chair, but when they have to come to the table.
Chris
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I think that you're right about my misdiagnosis. Given the above, I think you have to just keep trying. Maybe work on spinning the ball more, multi-rail shapes, shapes off of balls,... tools you don't want to use, but can have available to help you get back into line late in the run. The "play more straight pool" advice seems pretty sound as well.Andrew Manning said:
The good part is you'll probably stay a 6 as you work on being able to complete your runs, since you'll likely lose more than when playing safe. When your consistency goes up, you'll likely go up to a 7 in short order, which is probably how it should be. (I went through the same process about 2 years ago -- I played very conservative and had a very high win % as a 6 for several years. Then I said, "Hey, I can get out more often than this" and started going for runs more aggressively, and went up. I think it made me a better player.)
However, in post-season play, you might want to subordinate your efforts at self-improvement to the team's needs and play the more conservative game that you're comfortable with (for now, at least).
Also, if you find yourself playing a world-beater, like Shorty, you may as well go for it, because your best hope is to shoot above your speed and outrun them in the short race format. (Personally, I'd usually have a 6 duck a 7, so that might be moot.)
Cory
P.S. You could draw up some of your failed run-outs and see what people here think of your patterns.
P.P.S. You could also come back to my 8-ball/9-ball tournament, which is now consistently drawing 20+ players.
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Lotta good posts in this thread.
First of all, consider it from 2 perspectives.
1. If just playing for fun or practice...
2. If tournament player or gambling a substantial amount of money...
If playing for fun or practice, then could decide what aspect of the game you're working on. And then just fire away. Have fun and learn from your experiences.
Sounds like you are trying for more total run outs. You don't care what your percentages are, because you want that glory of running out, while ignoring the despair of selling out. If the total number of run outs is your goal, then feel free to continue doing so.
If tournament player or gambling, unless you want to be an easy mark, then you'd simply want to play to the BEST of YOUR ABILITIES. In this case, players who run their balls and then blow out before finishing, would be easy to play against. Top players would want to understand their ability and their chances of running out, and adjust accordingly. If see a chance to run out, but it's low percentage, may want to figure an alternate strategy, so as to improve your chances overall. In other words, may want to increase your run out success percentage (the times you say not only I can run out, but I will run out from here, and actually do).
Increasing your run out success percentage can be done with a little intelligence to determine your lowest likeliness of running out and eliminate them, by taking advantage of other tactics in your arsenal (i.e. the art of defense). By selling out less, this will make you a stronger, more formidable opponent overall.
In addition, utilizing the full arsenal of the art of defense (early defense as well as late defense), you can manipulate your opponent and the table to give you a higher percentage run-out. Now, you can flip the switch and say, now I am going to run-out and get ALL the glory. Just keep track of how effective you are at doing so.
Obviously there are times when you want to play for practice, and there are times when you want to play your best.
So, now the question is how do you want to treat your league performance? If you want it closer to the practice end of the spectrum then play that way. If you want it more towards playing your best, then play that way.
First of all, consider it from 2 perspectives.
1. If just playing for fun or practice...
2. If tournament player or gambling a substantial amount of money...
If playing for fun or practice, then could decide what aspect of the game you're working on. And then just fire away. Have fun and learn from your experiences.
Sounds like you are trying for more total run outs. You don't care what your percentages are, because you want that glory of running out, while ignoring the despair of selling out. If the total number of run outs is your goal, then feel free to continue doing so.
If tournament player or gambling, unless you want to be an easy mark, then you'd simply want to play to the BEST of YOUR ABILITIES. In this case, players who run their balls and then blow out before finishing, would be easy to play against. Top players would want to understand their ability and their chances of running out, and adjust accordingly. If see a chance to run out, but it's low percentage, may want to figure an alternate strategy, so as to improve your chances overall. In other words, may want to increase your run out success percentage (the times you say not only I can run out, but I will run out from here, and actually do).
Increasing your run out success percentage can be done with a little intelligence to determine your lowest likeliness of running out and eliminate them, by taking advantage of other tactics in your arsenal (i.e. the art of defense). By selling out less, this will make you a stronger, more formidable opponent overall.
In addition, utilizing the full arsenal of the art of defense (early defense as well as late defense), you can manipulate your opponent and the table to give you a higher percentage run-out. Now, you can flip the switch and say, now I am going to run-out and get ALL the glory. Just keep track of how effective you are at doing so.
Obviously there are times when you want to play for practice, and there are times when you want to play your best.
So, now the question is how do you want to treat your league performance? If you want it closer to the practice end of the spectrum then play that way. If you want it more towards playing your best, then play that way.
I know everyone says to play the table, not your opponent, however, I played APA one year as a 7 and found many times that when I knew I couldn't get out (multiple clusters), I went for the breakouts anyway, knowing my opponent wouldn't get out either, even if all the balls were out in the open, so I would bust them wide open. I don't advise this if you don't know how well the opponent plays!
So if I felt it was chancy to run out, but thought I COULD, I went for it, just to see if I could, knowing that if I broke out and didn't get out, or failed my breakouts, I probably wouldn't be penalized too badly and would most likely be back at the table later.
It's all about assessing yours AND THEIR percentages. If I am playing a good player, however, I am evaluating the runout vs. safe after every shot. If I elect to play safe, it may not just be a safe to hide them from their object balls. A safe may be used to further my situation, perhaps by setting up a break out ball or nudging one of my opponent's balls to a rail behind my ball, so that they are blocked or tied up.
Oh, and btw, a safe by leaving a long, ugly shot to a beginner, is not the same as leaving that same leave to a good player. A beginner thinks every shot is easy or on the same scale of toughness and they will take a flyer at it every time...sometimes making it, heedless as to where the cueball is flying, (usually breaking out their trouble balls, lol), whereas a seasoned player would have calculated the percentages for pocketing it and elected to choose a safer play.
So if I felt it was chancy to run out, but thought I COULD, I went for it, just to see if I could, knowing that if I broke out and didn't get out, or failed my breakouts, I probably wouldn't be penalized too badly and would most likely be back at the table later.
It's all about assessing yours AND THEIR percentages. If I am playing a good player, however, I am evaluating the runout vs. safe after every shot. If I elect to play safe, it may not just be a safe to hide them from their object balls. A safe may be used to further my situation, perhaps by setting up a break out ball or nudging one of my opponent's balls to a rail behind my ball, so that they are blocked or tied up.
Oh, and btw, a safe by leaving a long, ugly shot to a beginner, is not the same as leaving that same leave to a good player. A beginner thinks every shot is easy or on the same scale of toughness and they will take a flyer at it every time...sometimes making it, heedless as to where the cueball is flying, (usually breaking out their trouble balls, lol), whereas a seasoned player would have calculated the percentages for pocketing it and elected to choose a safer play.
VIProfessor said:
You get rep points for that one!!!
You have to know what your own limits are. If you can normally run 5 or 6 balls before you falter, try to start your run out when you only have 5 or 6 balls left on the table. What we WANT to do is not always what we are ABLE to do. If you know your own limits, and play within them, you are going to win more games.
Steve
Koop said:
That's why practice is so important. It not only extends your limits, but your objective assessment of your performance in practice gives you a reliable benchmark as to just what those limits are. This is what gives you the knowledge and confidence to play the best you can WITHIN YOUR GAME. In short, extend your boundaries during practice and play within your boundaries in competition (unless of course, winning and losing are only incidental factors when you compete!)
Koop said:
I'm so glad I've started this discussion. We have quite a number of knowledgable posters bringing in opinions on what someone in my situation should be doing, and they don't all agree by any means. I'm interested to see where this goes.
The question you ask here, Koop, is exactly what I was getting at with this thread, expressed as concisely as possible. I'm eager to hear how various people answer this question.
-Andrew
Andrew Manning said:
Hi Andrew,
Go back to the end of page 2. My post got in just before yours, and I don't know if you've seen it. In short though, practice is where your extend your limits, and competition is where you play within them.
VIProfessor said:
You're right, I didn't see it, but this is the first response I was expecting, and I'm not sure if I agree that improving your game is best served by only stretching your limits in practice.
Shouldn't we play like we practice? Educators have found that students perform best on tests when the environment in which they studied matches the test environment, and we all know that how well you shoot depends as much on mindset as anything else. Should we then expect to be able to apply things while in competition mindset that we learned in practice mindset? Or is the difference in mindset (adjusting to thinking about playing within one's abilities) an explanation for why we so often "choke" when in serious competition?
-Andrew
Andrew Manning said:
IMHO, no, you don't exactly play like you practice. Let me clarify. As has been mentioned in some other threads this week, practice consists of at least three different aspects: training (such as specifically addressing physical technique), drills (in which you do repetitions of specific exercises, shots or patterns related to skills that you are trying to improve or maintain), and what I call "trusting practice", in which you let go of the conscious self-instruction involved in the other two practice phases. This trusting practice may consist, for example, of playing the ghost, solitary straight pool, or it can involve friendly matches (with no more than a financially non-threatening wager) against another player.
If you say that we should play like how you engage in trusting practice, I would agree (and I would also say that trusting practice should take up at least 60% of your practice time). However, the training and drills aspects of practice are a totally different animal. It is in thoses phases that you consciously work on eliminating the weaknesses that are preventing you from running out when you should, and they are absolutely essential.
Regardless of how you practice, however, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that pool is a game of percentages! When you're playing for the cheese (and that includes tournament play), you've got to ask yourself, as Buddy Hall advocates, "How do I win from here?" If, based on your knowledge of YOUR play, you have a better chance to win by running out than by ducking, then by all means try to run out. If the table and your present skill set indicate, however, that you've got to duck, then that's what you've got to do.
Let me add also that the calculation of your percentages may vary from night to night or from game to game. A run out that may be feasible when you know you're in stroke may not be feasible if you're not playing well or if you haven't yet settled into the match!
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VIProfessor said:
I agree. I guess my problem is the amount of time I can actually put into the game which is literally a few hours a week.
For me, to get to that next level, I had to press myself in pressure situations. This is probably not the case with many but for me it was critical to push whenever the opportunity presented itself.
You practice different aspects of your game... (i.e. breakouts, safeties, stroke, expanding your overall skills, and if you're dedicated then you'll practice playing within those limits in order to maximize your performance in competitive play). When you spend time in practice playing to maximize your performance, then yes, you are correct you should play like you practice.Andrew Manning said:
If you don't practice maximizing the performance of your game, then when "you play like you practice" (as you refer to), what is that? What are you playing or practicing like?
There have been many here who have recommended playing your best game. Yet your posts seem to resort back to wanting to play run-out pool (whether you can actually do it or not). Maybe I've unintentionally misread your posts in this thread, and you're not just wanting to try to run-out always. If so, just let me know.
It seems to me that those who might advocate ducking out if you're not 100% sure of a runout presume that you'll win a higher percentage of times by doing so. I do not agree with this presumption. I would argue that someone in your skill level may lose more often by not going for the runout. But that disagreement goes into a whole discussion of expected return, expected value, risk vs. reward, payoff vs. odds.Andrew Manning said:
I mean, that's partly why you're asking in the first place. You're teetering on an edge. Do you keep on going, so that you can answer without a doubt that going for the runout increases your chances of winning? Or do you turn back and say that ducking will increase your chances of winning?
You can't practice like you play. Just like you can't play for funsies like you play when gambling. Completely different arenas. Playing for those runouts during competition is practice. It's the building blocks for your future growth. You've got the answer Andrew.
Fred
Andrew Manning said:
I believe that most every great player along their journey to greatness had to venture into uncharted waters, during intense competition, not knowing for sure the outcome. Having it pay off and sometimes not.
I also believe that some key qualities the “great” ones possess are adaptability and/or ability to improvise and create. Sure you can practice after the fact but discovery may only present itself one time.
Rick
Practice is when you work on your skills. It should be focused on improving different aspects of your game.
Sparring...friendly games where you can evaluate how well your practice sessions are working. If you practice the right way, it will start to show up in your game. This is a good time to push the limits and see what happens.
Competition...don't think about the things you practice...think about the shot in front of you and trust that the things you have been practicing will have found their way into your game.
Steve
Sparring...friendly games where you can evaluate how well your practice sessions are working. If you practice the right way, it will start to show up in your game. This is a good time to push the limits and see what happens.
Competition...don't think about the things you practice...think about the shot in front of you and trust that the things you have been practicing will have found their way into your game.
Steve