Wiki is good for some things, but not for others.
Since there is so little money in pool, the sport does not have the same record keeping as other major pro sports. Darn shame, but understandable.
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WNT, WPA and 2026
- Thread starter jbart65
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Since there is so little money in pool, the sport does not have the same record keeping as other major pro sports. Darn shame, but understandable.
I just tried to find a list of past champions on the WPA website and found nothing. I think they used to have one.
Are you suggesting that 9-ball is a bigger challenge for Josh and Shane than 8-ball? The game that has to change the break rules and pocket size every 2-3 years to try to make it competitive?
No, I am not. There simply is no evidence historically 8-ball would be a bigger hit than 9 ball. I get your argument. The popularity of 8-ball will always be a hurdle for any pro tour focusing on other varieties of the game.
Maybe, if it grows and grows in Asia. I am skeptical of its global reach.
Curling is not popular, Olympic status or not. (-:
uk_9_ball_convert
Active member
There is enough money to attract some of the best players from around the world and different disciplines to go compete in it. Whether that is sustainable or not is a different question. For a while China was trying to sign all the best footballers then the government decided they didn't want to do that anymore as it meant the local players had less chance to develop and it was like a tap was turned off overnight. Not sure how much of the Hey Ball money comes from Joy and how much comes from the government (or even how much of Joys money comes from the government).
To be fair to them they have been at it for a long time now. They gave Stephen Hendry quite a lot of money to be an ambassador for the sport in 2012 (ironically given he hates pool and now he's no longer getting paid is quite open about that, he does seem to have genuine affection for the country though)
… After their last collaboration in 2021, Matchroom and Predator went their separate ways and quickly became competitors. At the same time, though, neither seems to go out of the way to step on each others’ toes.
Before their falling out, Predator appeared to indicate support for MR’s desire to focus on building out 9 ball. Even now, Predator has mostly ceded men’s 9-ball to Matchroom. It only had one fairly major men’s 9-ball event in 2025, and I could only find one scheduled for this year.
Instead, Predator has focused on 8-ball, 10-ball, women’s pool and increasingly mixed doubles or team events.
This is a smart play. Eight-ball is the most popular cue sport in the world, especially in the U.S. Ten-ball satisfies the pros and many hardcore pool junkies. Women play pool and buy equipment too - it’s a gaping hole in Matchroom’s portfolio.
Predator is also finding success in mixed events, giving it another tool to lure the best players to its tournaments. Matchroom dropped the ball by letting the World Cup of Pool lapse. It’s going on three years now …
TBC
Before their falling out, Predator appeared to indicate support for MR’s desire to focus on building out 9 ball. Even now, Predator has mostly ceded men’s 9-ball to Matchroom. It only had one fairly major men’s 9-ball event in 2025, and I could only find one scheduled for this year.
Instead, Predator has focused on 8-ball, 10-ball, women’s pool and increasingly mixed doubles or team events.
This is a smart play. Eight-ball is the most popular cue sport in the world, especially in the U.S. Ten-ball satisfies the pros and many hardcore pool junkies. Women play pool and buy equipment too - it’s a gaping hole in Matchroom’s portfolio.
Predator is also finding success in mixed events, giving it another tool to lure the best players to its tournaments. Matchroom dropped the ball by letting the World Cup of Pool lapse. It’s going on three years now …
TBC
I hate to generalize too much, but to me it's always felt like Americans underestimate the popularity of sport in other regions of the world. We tend to not see much outside of our borders.
Soccer > Football
Cricket > Baseball
F1 > NASCAR
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Yes it is a conundrum.
Great points. Maybe that is what ultimate pool is trying to remedy with the match timers and such.
And that, IMO, is the crux of it. Do you try to push 9 ball and keep the pool nuts satisfied, or push the more universally played and recognized game in hope of pulling in more of the "bar crowd" dollars? Seems both ways have seen their share of failures.
Maybe scrapping both games and going with something completely different will be the answer? At this point, who knows. For all their promoting chops and slick production, I am not sure their (MR) product is selling to those casuals. For a couple of years after the partnership with DAZN, I would have cook outs and invite my pool team over and have the tournaments on. Not one single DAZN subscription came from it, and very few to this day can pick SVB out of a police lineup.
That's a problem, IMO.
Unpossible! You ever watch a couple of casuals playing 9 ball? Trying to ride the nine in every shot with 3 and 4 shot combos...taking 30 minutes to finally get a shot close enough on that pesky 3 ball that they have been banging around for the last 5 or 6 innings...brutal!
... Why did Predator choose to become a competitor to Matchroom?
Maybe it planned to become the sport’s biggest promoter before it knew what MR was really up to?
Maybe it thought Matchroom’s ambitions were too limited (no women’s pool).
Maybe it thought Matchroom’s ambitions were, instead, too big and would crowd Predator out.
Maybe it felt its influence over players as the sport’s biggest sponsor was being threatened.
Maybe it was simply a case of bad blood.
We just don’t know.
Whatever the case, Predator chose a very different strategy than Matchroom. Cooperation rather than confrontation. Predator had good relations with the WPA and the federations around the world. It chose to work within the system.
One could look at the Predator/WPA relationship several ways. Perhaps Predator saw the WPA as an ally it could use as a stalking horse in its coming confrontation with Matchroom. When the WPA ban took place, Predator’s fingerprints were nowhere to be found.
The WPA and federations, for their part, saw Predator as an ally to fight back against Matchroom’s effort to marginalize them. Maybe they are even funding Predator’s Pro Billiard Series to prop up their own position in the sport. It’s a big mystery to me how Predator has been able to sharply raise prize funds in the past few years.
However they are aligned, Predator and the WPA appear to have mutually benefited ...
TBC
Maybe it planned to become the sport’s biggest promoter before it knew what MR was really up to?
Maybe it thought Matchroom’s ambitions were too limited (no women’s pool).
Maybe it thought Matchroom’s ambitions were, instead, too big and would crowd Predator out.
Maybe it felt its influence over players as the sport’s biggest sponsor was being threatened.
Maybe it was simply a case of bad blood.
We just don’t know.
Whatever the case, Predator chose a very different strategy than Matchroom. Cooperation rather than confrontation. Predator had good relations with the WPA and the federations around the world. It chose to work within the system.
One could look at the Predator/WPA relationship several ways. Perhaps Predator saw the WPA as an ally it could use as a stalking horse in its coming confrontation with Matchroom. When the WPA ban took place, Predator’s fingerprints were nowhere to be found.
The WPA and federations, for their part, saw Predator as an ally to fight back against Matchroom’s effort to marginalize them. Maybe they are even funding Predator’s Pro Billiard Series to prop up their own position in the sport. It’s a big mystery to me how Predator has been able to sharply raise prize funds in the past few years.
However they are aligned, Predator and the WPA appear to have mutually benefited ...
TBC
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yes, i am.
their prize funds combine the women and the men, etc. the prize funds for the men isn't sharply raised, but they do offer teams, mixed doubles in which (some of) the men can make extra cash.
and i must say, personally i would have never watched the women's if it wasn't for predator. an eye opener for me. i think the WPBA events (and streams) are weak, the women's eurotour also quite weak. i have much enjoyed it, so well done predator. hope to see young muyan zhang play this year, she may be the next chezka / siming chen.
It's still there, they moved it a couple years ago, and I couldn't find it either. Rankings>then scroll down all the way to the bottom to World Champions and click on Learn More:
Also for the 2 years the 9 ball WC was not held in 2008 and 2009, the 10 ball was. I believe a bunch of us thought at the time that 10 ball would take over?
That was also when the economy was in the toilet, and money was dried up worldwide for anything and everything, sport and normal day to day things.
That was also when the economy was in the toilet, and money was dried up worldwide for anything and everything, sport and normal day to day things.
But but but but...hear me out, what if we played it on 7ft tables and 5 inch pockets and paid a weekly membership fee to do so???!!
From listening to Podcasts Karim Belhaj did, I got the sense that he was not onboard with a 9 ball only tour. He wanted 10 ball tournaments and also wanted to promote women pool.
... The eventual showdown between Matchroom, the WPA and Predator, as we all know, took place in 2024. It’s still inexplicable in some ways.
As Matchroom grew in power, the WPA clearly felt threatened. The organization believed a global structure with uniform rules - with the WPA in charge - was necessary to eventually obtain Olympic status. The WNT didn’t want to abide by all WPA rules.
And yet, the WPA sanctioned the UK and European opens held by Matchroom earlier in the year. And it sanctioned the Peri Open right before the 2024 Hanoi Open.
But Hanoi? The WPA wouldn’t sanction it, and warned players they would be banned by not participating.
Some top players dropped out – Joshua Filler among them - but many others stayed and played. So the WPA followed up with a ban. Gorst, SVB, Biado, Chua, Shaw, FSR and many others were hit with the ban.
The WPA ban, of course, was very unpopular with players, even Predator-sponsored ones. And some top players vowed not to play in big WPA events, mainly sponsored by Predator, until the ban was lifted.
This episode, in retrospect, seems to have marked the zenith (for now) of the WNT’s power and influence in the pool world. Players were very supportive, and Frazer vowed Matchroom would not engage in bans like the WPA did.
The most immediate effect was that late 2024 and early 2025 Predator events lacked some of the best players in the word, an obvious blow to Predator and the WPA.
Yet Matchroom suffered a big blow too - one it clearly did not expect - as the dispute dragged on. Most top players sponsored by Predator began to skip some big WNT events, as did large contingents like the Polish players who were reliant on financial support from their national federation ...
TBC
As Matchroom grew in power, the WPA clearly felt threatened. The organization believed a global structure with uniform rules - with the WPA in charge - was necessary to eventually obtain Olympic status. The WNT didn’t want to abide by all WPA rules.
And yet, the WPA sanctioned the UK and European opens held by Matchroom earlier in the year. And it sanctioned the Peri Open right before the 2024 Hanoi Open.
But Hanoi? The WPA wouldn’t sanction it, and warned players they would be banned by not participating.
Some top players dropped out – Joshua Filler among them - but many others stayed and played. So the WPA followed up with a ban. Gorst, SVB, Biado, Chua, Shaw, FSR and many others were hit with the ban.
The WPA ban, of course, was very unpopular with players, even Predator-sponsored ones. And some top players vowed not to play in big WPA events, mainly sponsored by Predator, until the ban was lifted.
This episode, in retrospect, seems to have marked the zenith (for now) of the WNT’s power and influence in the pool world. Players were very supportive, and Frazer vowed Matchroom would not engage in bans like the WPA did.
The most immediate effect was that late 2024 and early 2025 Predator events lacked some of the best players in the word, an obvious blow to Predator and the WPA.
Yet Matchroom suffered a big blow too - one it clearly did not expect - as the dispute dragged on. Most top players sponsored by Predator began to skip some big WNT events, as did large contingents like the Polish players who were reliant on financial support from their national federation ...
TBC
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... Given the damage the WPA/Predator-Matchroom dispute caused to both sides, a compromise was inevitable. In 2025, the WPA agreed to “ratify” WNT events it did not explicitly sanction. Bans were also lifted. The two sides pledged to work together.
Far from having won the fight, though, Matchroom has lost some of its momentum. And its own missteps contributed.
The biggest mistake was to ban a qualified Joshua Filler from the Mosconi Cup in 2024. At the time, Matchroom said other Mosconi players did not want Filler to participate.
How come? Filler and other top pros had pledged in August 2024 not to play in WPA events due to the threat of a ban, but he reneged shortly afterward. He was a Predator-sponsored player and realized he’d have to skip big Predator events such as the upcoming World 8-Ball championship (which he won).
Whether other players really wanted Filler excluded, the move to oust him was a big mistake. He is arguably the best player in the world and one of the most popular. WNT, in effect, put its own ban in place. Precisely what it said it would not do.
Matchroom doubled down on its error a year later and quietly banned Shane Van Boening and Filler from participation in the 2025 Reyes Cup as well. These are the players whose support Matchroom needs most crucially.
WNT evidently had rules - nowhere to be found publicly in print - that players had to play in the big Matchroom event (Hanoi) before the Reyes Cup to be eligible. It was all hush-hush, and unseemly, too.
These moves alienated players, cost Matchroom support and shifted the balance of power. The WNT and Predator/WPA are at least on equal terms, and one could argue Predator/WPA now has a slight upper hand.
It’s no surprise SVB has little to say about the WNT and Matchroom these days. He’s skipped three WNT majors in a row and might skip a fourth.
WNT seems to be making amends with Filler, but the damage has been done ...
TBC
Far from having won the fight, though, Matchroom has lost some of its momentum. And its own missteps contributed.
The biggest mistake was to ban a qualified Joshua Filler from the Mosconi Cup in 2024. At the time, Matchroom said other Mosconi players did not want Filler to participate.
How come? Filler and other top pros had pledged in August 2024 not to play in WPA events due to the threat of a ban, but he reneged shortly afterward. He was a Predator-sponsored player and realized he’d have to skip big Predator events such as the upcoming World 8-Ball championship (which he won).
Whether other players really wanted Filler excluded, the move to oust him was a big mistake. He is arguably the best player in the world and one of the most popular. WNT, in effect, put its own ban in place. Precisely what it said it would not do.
Matchroom doubled down on its error a year later and quietly banned Shane Van Boening and Filler from participation in the 2025 Reyes Cup as well. These are the players whose support Matchroom needs most crucially.
WNT evidently had rules - nowhere to be found publicly in print - that players had to play in the big Matchroom event (Hanoi) before the Reyes Cup to be eligible. It was all hush-hush, and unseemly, too.
These moves alienated players, cost Matchroom support and shifted the balance of power. The WNT and Predator/WPA are at least on equal terms, and one could argue Predator/WPA now has a slight upper hand.
It’s no surprise SVB has little to say about the WNT and Matchroom these days. He’s skipped three WNT majors in a row and might skip a fourth.
WNT seems to be making amends with Filler, but the damage has been done ...
TBC
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... The other big mistake Matchroom has made is its handling of the Mosconi and Reyes Cups. We’ve hashed over this quite a bit on this board, so no need to say much.
The selection process for the teams needs to be revamped to be less political and more "automatic." Player captains didn’t work. The U.S. team isn’t competitive. And the “World” team for the Reyes is a failure. Lots of stuff to fix and try to get right.
These are supposed to be the capstone events - playoffs if you will, or all-star games - that give players incentive to play in most big WNT events. They exist to reward players for their success on the tour.
If players don’t think they have a chance to qualify for the Mosconi or Reyes, why bother playing in big WNT events they otherwise would not for financial or other reasons? ...
TBC
The selection process for the teams needs to be revamped to be less political and more "automatic." Player captains didn’t work. The U.S. team isn’t competitive. And the “World” team for the Reyes is a failure. Lots of stuff to fix and try to get right.
These are supposed to be the capstone events - playoffs if you will, or all-star games - that give players incentive to play in most big WNT events. They exist to reward players for their success on the tour.
If players don’t think they have a chance to qualify for the Mosconi or Reyes, why bother playing in big WNT events they otherwise would not for financial or other reasons? ...
TBC
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Possibly I missed it in an earlier post, but I think you've left out the large roll that Federations played in this. Many in the USA don't get that part because the BCA has been largely useless in promoting/supporting American pool players (hopefully that will change), but for most of the Asian and Euro players, Federation money is what allowed them to pursue a career in billiards.
To me this was one of Matchroom's big miscalculations.
You are right. I briefly mentioned in one of my posts. The Polish players in particular stick to all WPA events over WNT ones for this reason.