Wood contact on 3/8x11

[spliced]

I heard that the 3/8x11 pin with flat-bottomed threads was developed to have more contact with the wood threads than the V bottomed pins.

They say the radial pin has is 96% contact with the shaft threads. Does anyone know what the percentage of contact is with the flat bottomed pin?

Thanks

 

[desert1pocket]

I think that when they talk about more contact, they mean more surface area, rather than the percentage of the pin that contacts the wood. A flat bottomed 3/8 11 pin has much more surface area than the other common pin sizes.

 

[spliced]

I think that when they talk about more contact, they mean more surface area, rather than the percentage of the pin that contacts the wood. A flat bottomed 3/8 11 pin has much more surface area than the other common pin sizes.

How does a 3/8x11 compare to a radial as far as surface area contact?

 

[dzcues]

I heard that the 3/8x11 pin with flat-bottomed threads was developed to have more contact with the wood threads than the V bottomed pins.

They say the radial pin has is 96% contact with the shaft threads. Does anyone know what the percentage of contact is with the flat bottomed pin?

Thanks

Here's a pic comparing a 3/8-10 std thread vs. the 3/8-10 flat-bottomed thread. Contact is pretty good with the flat bottom. Difference in 10 pitch and 11 pitch is negligible - the design is the same. I'd venture to say the flat-bottomed style compares favorably to the radial design. And since the cuemaker is boring the hole to suit, he has more control over the fit whereas with the radial, you're at the mercy of your tap. (I'm sure you've heard about the problems with undersize & oversize radial taps.)

http://www.dzcues.com/modified_pin.htm

 

[billiardshot]

Great Article & Site

Dzcues, great article and ones nice site. Thank for sharing with everyone. First time to your site!!!
A Must site for all cuebuilders or just for knowledge.
Bob Watson

 

[blud]

pins

I heard that the 3/8x11 pin with flat-bottomed threads was developed to have more contact with the wood threads than the V bottomed pins.

They say the radial pin has is 96% contact with the shaft threads. Does anyone know what the percentage of contact is with the flat bottomed pin?

Thanks

I know of NO, 3/8 X 11 pin out there. I developed my pin, which guys say it's a 3/8 x 11, but it's not....3/8 is .375, for those who need to know...

My pin is .348 diameter, X 11.***[ no need to give you the correct pitch numbers, guys, it's more than 11], threads per inch. It's was designed by me many years ago. [ 1976 ], It does have flat bottom as well as sim-flat tops, with inside and outside radius, in the bottoms and tops. Most guys just guess at it's pitch and size. No one has ever told me the correct numbers........

When I developed it, there were only 4 other pins out there. I ran test on all of then and didn't like the results. Testing, I used a tool and die makers ink, [spray on type], and sprayed each pin, then screwed a shaft on it, unsrewed it and measured the WIPE OFF on each pin, and compared all of them. Best was the 3/8X10, about 62% wipe off. I built mine and it came in at 94%. Guys talk about radial pins, and such. I 've been ask to build cues with them and WILL NOT. Mines not broke, don't need to fix it. It WORKS, and has worked well for all these years.

It does have more contact than the normal pins, I designed it for that reason. More contact....

In my opinion, a radial, pin has to much mass for the joint, being to stiff, causing more deflection than you really want. Keep in mind that ALL joints must have movement when playing. The joint does flex a little.
Blud

 

[buddha162]

Here's a pic comparing a 3/8-10 std thread vs. the 3/8-10 flat-bottomed thread. Contact is pretty good with the flat bottom. Difference in 10 pitch and 11 pitch is negligible - the design is the same. I'd venture to say the flat-bottomed style compares favorably to the radial design. And since the cuemaker is boring the hole to suit, he has more control over the fit whereas with the radial, you're at the mercy of your tap. (I'm sure you've heard about the problems with undersize & oversize radial taps.)

http://www.dzcues.com/modified_pin.htm

Wow, major, major rep for you sir. Thank you!

-Roger

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

Here's a pic comparing a 3/8-10 std thread vs. the 3/8-10 flat-bottomed thread. Contact is pretty good with the flat bottom. Difference in 10 pitch and 11 pitch is negligible - the design is the same. I'd venture to say the flat-bottomed style compares favorably to the radial design. And since the cuemaker is boring the hole to suit, he has more control over the fit whereas with the radial, you're at the mercy of your tap. (I'm sure you've heard about the problems with undersize & oversize radial taps.)

http://www.dzcues.com/modified_pin.htm

I have also been boring the hole for my Radial Pin installations and I have not had a problem with over 10 years experience with them.

The Radial Pin Tap is precision made with lots of lead so it taps straight.

Often times it is not what is used but how it is done.

Good Cuemaking,

 

[Poulos Cues]

I have also been boring the hole for my Radial Pin installations and I have not had a problem with over 10 years experience with them.

The Radial Pin Tap is precision made with lots of lead so it taps straight.

Often times it is not what is used but how it is done.

Good Cuemaking,

I too bore the hole for the Radial Pin. I bore the shaft as well though the "instructions" say just to drill it.

I finish bore every hole and use guage pins to sneak up on 'em

Chris

 

[JoeyInCali]

I too bore the hole for the Radial Pin. I bore the shaft as well though the "instructions" say just to drill it.

I finish bore every hole and use guage pins to sneak up on 'em

Chris

I step drill to 9/32nd, then bore it to .310.
Just a hair under 5/16.
I wouldn't be able to grind the radial threads even if I had the right threading mill b/c my lathe has 8.5 threads setting.

 

[spliced]

Wow. Thanks for the info DZ and Blud.

Blud, if you dont mind, would you post a pic of your pin if possibe?
Also, have you or could you perform your ink test on a radial cue just to compare the contact? I'd be interested to know if it is really 96%.

Thanks,
Ian

 

[dzcues]

I have also been boring the hole for my Radial Pin installations and I have not had a problem with over 10 years experience with them.

The Radial Pin Tap is precision made with lots of lead so it taps straight.

Often times it is not what is used but how it is done.

Good Cuemaking,

Hi Arnot,

I think the initial charm of the Radial Pin was the fact that it was the first system that allowed almost anyone to install a joint pin that ran concentric with the butt by virtue of its register diameter. The snug fit was a bonus. But with the Radial Pin, the only function of the bored hole is to provide a concentric path for the Radial tap's pilot to follow. From that point, the tap has total control of the fit. Look at your finished tapped hole - there is no trace of your bored hole remaining. However, if your tap is larger than your pin, you get a beautifully tapped hole that is sloppy. That is why they now sell undersize Radial Pin taps.

As long as you're aware of the Radial Pin abberances & have an undersize tap to guarantee a tight fit, it's not a problem. I, too, tried the Radial early in it's life but I ran into pin size variations before the undersize taps were available & I just decided to avoid them. Maybe they now have better quality control but I couldn't trust them way back when. Note: all my purchases were from both Uni-Loc & Atlas only so my pins came from the same source. In fact, I believe I got my original tooling & hardware directly from Uni-Loc before Atlas even offered them.

With the flat bottomed threads, YOU control the fit - even if the pin size varies. The hole you bore is the minor diameter of the pin.

Another problem I've sometimes seen with the Radial Pin is cross threading. In fact, the female carbide sanding arbor I got straight from Uni-Loc came cross threaded. It works, but I have to be very careful when I mount it on a male pin.

Obviously, you've worked out the problems with the Radial Pin but if I recall correctly, you were one of the people complaining about the inconsistent fits on the pins long ago. Your persistence is to be commended. I just chose to stick with my standard 3/8-10 with which I was having good results anyway.

 

[blud]

pin

Wow. Thanks for the info DZ and Blud.

Blud, if you dont mind, would you post a pic of your pin if possibe?
Also, have you or could you perform your ink test on a radial cue just to compare the contact? I'd be interested to know if it is really 96%.

Thanks,
Ian

I don't have one, first off I don't agree with the design, and mainly, it makes the cue play to stiff....Some guys love them, I don't.
Wipe off would be a lot, possibley 95% or more. Most guys will say they want there cue to play as if it's a one piece. Won't ever happen. A one piece, gives a little [ has flex within the whole cue], when you hit the cue ball, with a big pin or radial, it stiffens up the hit and has not as much flex within the cue, as needed.........If I didn't have my own design, I would go with a 3/8X10. It's not to big, or too heavy.....
blud

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

Hi Arnot,

Obviously, you've worked out the problems with the Radial Pin but if I recall correctly, you were one of the people complaining about the inconsistent fits on the pins long ago. Your persistence is to be commended. I just chose to stick with my standard 3/8-10 with which I was having good results anyway.

In about the year 2000 Uni-Loc changed the size of their Radial pins because they had complaints about the pins being too tight. They did not bother to tell anyone and all at once my Radial Pins had a sloppy fit. I called Uni-Loc and asked why the pins were .002 smaller than before and was appraised as to the above. I was pretty hot and demanded that they make a new tap that was .002 undersize because I like the snug to tight fit that I achieved in the beginning. Now that I have been using the undersize tap I have had no problem for the past 6 years.

I was not able to correctly install a Radial pin or for that matter any other pin by drilling a hole. THEY MUST BE BORED TRUE. I have machined some slip rods so I can get the hole right. I get close and try the slip rod - if it does not go in I take another .001 until it fits snug. I do the same thing with the shaft hole. It takes some practice but after a couple of thousand it gets easier.

There are a few good pins on the market today that were not available when I started making cues. One thing I decided early on was that any pin I used would be available off the shelf by other cuemakers so my customers would be able to get replacement shafts from anyone.

Bludworth makes his own pin and they work fine. The problem is that Blud does not make these pins available to anyone else so if you need a new shaft they must be obtained from Bludworth. What is going to happen when he dies and his customers need a new shaft? I guess they will have to change the pin in their cue and retool their shaft.

Good Cuemaking,

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Here's a pic comparing a 3/8-10 std thread vs. the 3/8-10 flat-bottomed thread. Contact is pretty good with the flat bottom. Difference in 10 pitch and 11 pitch is negligible - the design is the same. I'd venture to say the flat-bottomed style compares favorably to the radial design. And since the cuemaker is boring the hole to suit, he has more control over the fit whereas with the radial, you're at the mercy of your tap. (I'm sure you've heard about the problems with undersize & oversize radial taps.)

http://www.dzcues.com/modified_pin.htm

Awesome pictures and explainations! Rep points!

 

[blud]

tap

In about the year 2000 Uni-Loc changed the size of their Radial pins because they had complaints about the pins being too tight. They did not bother to tell anyone and all at once my Radial Pins had a sloppy fit. I called Uni-Loc and asked why the pins were .002 smaller than before and was appraised as to the above. I was pretty hot and demanded that they make a new tap that was .002 undersize because I like the snug to tight fit that I achieved in the beginning. Now that I have been using the undersize tap I have had no problem for the past 6 years.

I was not able to correctly install a Radial pin or for that matter any other pin by drilling a hole. THEY MUST BE BORED TRUE. I have machined some slip rods so I can get the hole right. I get close and try the slip rod - if it does not go in I take another .001 until it fits snug. I do the same thing with the shaft hole. It takes some practice but after a couple of thousand it gets easier.

There are a few good pins on the market today that were not available when I started making cues. One thing I decided early on was that any pin I used would be available off the shelf by other cuemakers so my customers would be able to get replacement shafts from anyone.

Bludworth makes his own pin and they work fine. The problem is that Blud does not make these pins available to anyone else so if you need a new shaft they must be obtained from Bludworth. What is going to happen when he dies and his customers need a new shaft? I guess they will have to change the pin in their cue and retool their shaft.

Good Cuemaking,

Hey ,Arnie, hope your doing well?
Your mistaken, sir. Years ago, I didn't sell my tap, now I do.
I do sell the tap to others. Just ask?
If you need one call me. I'm not trying nor have I ever tried to hogg the shaft business, because of my joint pin. Call and you can get one.
blud

 

[Poulos Cues]

...I have machined some slip rods so I can get the hole right. I get close and try the slip rod - if it does not go in I take another .001 until it fits snug. I do the same thing with the shaft hole. It takes some practice but after a couple of thousand it gets easier.




Good Cuemaking,

Arnot,
This too is my purpose of using ground gauge pins. They come +/- and you can get them in 10ths, 1000ths, etc.
For only a few bucks, they allow me to guage ( sneek up onto) the hole as you do, but I can also sweep the length and od for straightness and concentricity. Much more accurate than telescoping rods or calipers.

Chris

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

Hey ,Arnie, hope your doing well?
Your mistaken, sir. Years ago, I didn't sell my tap, now I do.
I do sell the tap to others. Just ask?
If you need one call me. I'm not trying nor have I ever tried to hogg the shaft business, because of my joint pin. Call and you can get one.
blud

Hi Leonard:

I stand corrected. Years ago I tried to get your pins but you said No. I was just going by that experience.

Do you sell your pins now? If so, how much are they?

Thanks and Good Cuemaking,

 

[spliced]

I don't have one, first off I don't agree with the design, and mainly, it makes the cue play to stiff....Some guys love them, I don't.
Wipe off would be a lot, possibley 95% or more. Most guys will say they want there cue to play as if it's a one piece. Won't ever happen. A one piece, gives a little [ has flex within the whole cue], when you hit the cue ball, with a big pin or radial, it stiffens up the hit and has not as much flex within the cue, as needed.........If I didn't have my own design, I would go with a 3/8X10. It's not to big, or too heavy.....
blud

What makes the radial pin bigger or heavier than the 3/8x10? I thought 3/8x10 was considered a big pin and that the radial was 3/8 also.

And wouldnt weight be less with titanium and G10 radials?

Thanks,
Ian

 

[cutter]

Wood contact on 3/8-11

Radial weighs a little more than a straight 3/8-10 because it has a barrel(straight section in the middle of it that helps align the pin when you install it. Blud can correct me, but I believe his pins are rolled thread and that's what causes some of the different diameters. I do know that they work great. I have used a 3/8-12 rolled thread in the past, but with out Blud's long term reputation in the business, I caught a lot of crap about a priority type pin. Even thou anyone can get them made. Blud's are unique and they had to make special dies for them and won't do them for anyone else. Hell if he dies I just buy the dies and carry on(Only kidding Blud, I expect to see you at shows for years to come.) Somebodies got to liven that place up.