World Fargo Rating list --place changes from the US Open

[jasonlaus]

I believe(personal belief) that tighter pockets will be an advantage to a few players(Shaw for instance) he is so accurate that I think it could make a difference. Again, this is personal belief and is probably completely wrong. Reason being is that these players play on a ton of different equipment and it all comes out in the wash. I think Shaws rating is gonna keep climbing and would be reflected in the rating anyway.
Jason<-------trusts Fargorate

 

[Cory in DC]

Mike could answer that, but I don't believe it takes 14.1 or 1 pckt, banks etc into consideration.
I could be wrong.
Jason

With data on 14.1 and 1P matches, it would be an easy addition to have ratings for those games. In the Big Data Era of Pool, we'll have ratings for every game. Shortly thereafter, however, intelligent pool-playing robots will defeat us all.

 

[realkingcobra]

I suspect you and everybody else more or less knows the answer to this. Ratings are more reliable when they are based on more data.

Take Konrad Juszczyszyn, for example, a very good player from Poland. He walked undefeated through the Gotham City Classic beating Kevin Cheng twice, Dechaine, Boyes, Orcollo, etc. And many people got their first glimpse of him here. It is easy to conclude he might be a tippy-top world-class player emerging on the scene. But we know from lots more data that he's a solid player who had an unusually good tournament--more like Billy Thorpe, Amar Kang, or Josh Roberts and not so much like Bergman or Dechaine.

So basicly his ability to walk through a field of top notch players could be repeated each time a new upcoming player emerges out in the open. Wasn't Wu about 16/17 when he won the world 8/9 ball titles? How much did anyone know about him at that time?

 

[jasonlaus]

So basicly his ability to walk through a field of top notch players could be repeated each time a new upcoming player emerges out in the open. Wasn't Wu about 16/17 when he won the world 8/9 ball titles? How much did anyone know about him at that time?

Anybody world class could go on a heater and destroy the field......could
Jason

 

[jasonlaus]

With data on 14.1 and 1P matches, it would be an easy addition to have ratings for those games. In the Big Data Era of Pool, we'll have ratings for every game. Shortly thereafter, however, intelligent pool-playing robots will defeat us all.

I musta been playing robots the last 10 years
Jason <----- defeated

 

[mikepage]

So basicly his ability to walk through a field of top notch players could be repeated each time a new upcoming player emerges out in the open.

It doesn't have to be a new player. Jeremy Sossei could have done the same thing. But you won't see him sustain that for a season.

Wasn't Wu about 16/17 when he won the world 8/9 ball titles? How much did anyone know about him at that time?

Yes, and when he won the World 9-Ball it could have been he was just very good and had a GREAT day. Then he followed this by the world 8-Ball the same year. That's when the GREAT DAT theory started to look not so appealing. And of course we all know he is now, a decade later, the highest rated player in the world.

 

[realkingcobra]

Anybody world class could go on a heater and destroy the field......could
Jason

I just don't see how Fargo ratings are going to decide the top 64 players in the world in order to say who's playing or not playing in a world 10 ball championship....and make that decision at the cut off date giving anyone in the world 11 months to throw their name in the hat to be decided 30 days pryor to the tournament so the world knows who's playing in the event. Can you explain how Fargo ratings would do that?

 

[336Robin]

Strength Formula

It's designed to basically be above the rating of the 48 defeated players and below the ratings of the 2 players who won. In other words, it reflects the strength of the competition. Without knowing that strength, your question cannot be answered.

I'm no programmer but it sounds like to me you could have classifications within the Fargorate to keep peoples ratings true among the group and rules to bump people down and up to the different groups.

Like if you remain so high for a period of time in the group you're in, you get to go up to the next grouping but you're taking your rating until you get some games with those players. If you're rating causes you to have to bite off more than you can chew you go down to the bottom of that grouping. If you stay stagnant for certain period of time you go down. This way you have to fight and be changing position to remain a Top Player of any level.

 

[mikepage]

I just don't see how Fargo ratings are going to decide the top 64 players in the world in order to say who's playing or not playing in a world 10 ball championship....and make that decision at the cut off date giving anyone in the world 11 months to throw their name in the hat to be decided 30 days pryor to the tournament so the world knows who's playing in the event. Can you explain how Fargo ratings would do that?

That's exactly what it can do well. I don't understand your objection.

You'll want to have some criteria about a minimum number of events in the last year, etc.

There are two basic approaches.

(1) Have the minimum number of events be relatively large, like 8, and use the SPR (Specific Performance Rating) for the year [this would be a more sound approach to accumulating Mosconi points, for example]

(2) Have the minimum number of events be smaller, like 3, and use the Fargo Rating.

 

[realkingcobra]

I'm no programmer but it sounds like to me you could have classifications within the Fargorate to keep peoples ratings true among the group and rules to bump people down and up to the different groups.

Like if you remain so high for a period of time in the group you're in, you get to go up to the next grouping but you're taking your rating until you get some games with those players. If you're rating causes you to have to bite off more than you can chew you go down to the bottom of that grouping. If you stay stagnant for certain period of time you go down. This way you have to fight and be changing position to remain a Top Player of any level.

But Robin....what group is a player moving up to, or down to? What IS the group? Is it a league or something, what does all this Fargo rating do, besides rate players to better inform those wanting to bet on matches?

 

[BeiberLvr]

I just don't see how Fargo ratings are going to decide the top 64 players in the world in order to say who's playing or not playing in a world 10 ball championship....and make that decision at the cut off date giving anyone in the world 11 months to throw their name in the hat to be decided 30 days pryor to the tournament so the world knows who's playing in the event. Can you explain how Fargo ratings would do that?

We get it already. Your system is better than Fargo. You have all the answers to fix pool and make the players millionaires. So do it already. I hate people that are all talk and zero action. Be like Accu-Stats and Make it Happen!

 

[one stroke]

It doesn't have to be a new player. Jeremy Sossei could have done the same thing. But you won't see him sustain that for a season.



Yes, and when he won the World 9-Ball it could have been he was just very good and had a GREAT day. Then he followed this by the world 8-Ball the same year. That's when the GREAT DAT theory started to look not so appealing. And of course we all know he is now, a decade later, the highest rated player in the world.

The kid won 2 world championships 5 yrs after he picked up a cue and did so in dominating fashion , had he not had political problems not being able to play who knows how many more he could have won , he couldn't get a visa to play this open where he certainly was a top player , yes decade later he's still younger than Shaw so he's got plenty good yrs in front of him

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[realkingcobra]

We get it already. Your system is better than Fargo. You have all the answers to fix pool and make the players millionaires. So do it already. I hate people that are all talk and zero action. Be like Accu-Stats and Make it Happen!

I've already done a lot for pool, tell me....what have YOU done?

 

[336Robin]

I couldnt tell you

But Robin....what group is a player moving up to, or down to? What IS the group? Is it a league or something, what does all this Fargo rating do, besides rate players to better inform those wanting to bet on matches?

I couldnt tell you except maybe among league players then a level above that regional tour players and then a level above that touring pros.

What it sounds like to me is that a league player could have a fargorating based on his wins and losses at that level that was a high as Shane Van Boehning.

If thats true then something needs to rectify that.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I've already done a lot for pool, tell me....what have YOU done?

I'm not denying what you have done, but I am doubting what you will do.

 

[mikepage]

I couldnt tell you except maybe among league players then a level above that regional tour players and then a level above that touring pros.

What it sounds like to me is that a league player could have a fargorating based on his wins and losses at that level that was a high as Shane Van Boehning.

If thats true then something needs to rectify that.

I'm not sure I understand what you think needs to be rectified, but a player will only have a rating like SVB if a player plays like SVB. Nobody is going to have an inflated rating due to a good record against weak competition. That's what the "ab initio global optimization" is all about.

 

[jasonlaus]

I couldnt tell you except maybe among league players then a level above that regional tour players and then a level above that touring pros.

What it sounds like to me is that a league player could have a fargorating based on his wins and losses at that level that was a high as Shane Van Boehning.

If thats true then something needs to rectify that.

No. All fargoratings are linked together, therefore the league player would have a rating based on all players in the world.
Jason

 

[336Robin]

Thanks

I'm not sure I understand what you think needs to be rectified, but a player will only have a rating like SVB if a player plays like SVB. Nobody is going to have an inflated rating due to a good record against weak competition. That's what the "ab initio global optimization" is all about.

Thanks, that was my question.

 

[jasonlaus]

I'm not denying what you have done, but I am doubting what you will do.

In glenns defense, he has been very non confrontational in all this. I truly feel lime he is asking legit questions for the betterment of pool.
Jason

 

[one stroke]

Yes, it is.

In practice the concern is a situation where a player sees a big benefit by dropping just a few points. And this is the reason we recommend against having, say, a major, national "600 and under" tournament or something like that.

More broadly, it is a low concern. We have actually been tracking this sort of thing form many years. And when we emerge in a new area, there are several of the any-system-can-be-gamed crowd that start chirping. But then reality sets in. And here are some of the realities.

(1) games from many different sources contribute, so it is not like you can dump in your Tuesday night UPU league and keep your UPU rating down. You've got the weekly tournaments and the monthly tournaments, and national tournaments, and so on contributing to the same rating.

(2) If you choose to pay for and enter a tournament for the purpose of dumping, you get disappointed because you play very few games in your two dumped matches. You have to dump four tournaments convincingly --paying the entry and spending the day each time--just to counterbalance one tournament where you don't dump and play 8 matches.

(3) the number of games in an entire year of league is similar to the number of games you might play in one larger tournament.

The reality--and we've seen it over and over and over again--is that once people believe in the system generally (and there is plenty good reason to believe in it) PLAYERS WANT A HIGHER RATING. And this includes players that in the past were always angling to get into a lower division or to be categorized as B rather than A...

I've been contacted probably a hundred times by players--good players, shortstop level, pro level, who are wondering if a certain tournament is in or certain matches are in. Not once has it been the case that it is a tournament they did poorly in. This is telling.

We can of course have statistical signatures looking for "unlikely fluctuations,"
but so far this had told us only things like we inadvertently assigned, for example pro player Mike Davis's matches to some other league player Mike Davis--i.e, an error...or a match got keyed in as 44 to 3 rather than 4 to 3...

Well I'm glad to see the answer is yes because that's the right answer ,, the vast majority of players play on the up n up .. that includes players close to cut lines , I know even though I argue this point and it just so happen to take place in the gold this yr a whole lot of things had to take place for it to happen , my argument was it could , not the rareity of it I do concider it a rare feat .
If someone goes to extreme mesures to cheat the shame is on them not the system


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