Would Mosconi had been great if

[lfigueroa]

Another question..

How would he get on today against today's top players?

My opinion is that, Willie, in his prime, would still win world championships. Maybe not all of them, but a lot of them. Having seen him play several times when he was well past his prime -- to this day I can say that I have never seen anyone pocket balls with equal grace, speed and accuracy. He made it look so damn easy.

In the late George Fels' column in this month's BD, he tells a story at the end of it about how Charlie Ursitti witnessed Mosconi warming up for a TV match with Fats, in the late 70's, when Willie was in his mid-60's. Willie start playing and ran 588 balls. Mosconi then breaks open the 43th rack, had the balls *wide open,* and put his cue down after pocketing the 589th ball and said, "Let's go get some dinner. See, its no big deal to run 600 balls."

Lou Figueroa

 

[macguy]

Probably not and I believe he says as much in his biography.

“I had played Greenleaf just once since i was seven years old. That was in the recent tournaments, and I had beaten him 125-55. But I knew from the start that this tour would be the opportunity of a lifetime for me. the 1933 tournament had convinced me that I had all the talent I needed to compete with the best in the world. But it also taught that I had a lot to learn. Now, I was being given the chance to learn it at the side of the greatest pool-shooter who ever played the game. i watched him like a hawk. I learned all the little tricks and profited from the tremendous hoard of knowledge he had accumulated in his career. I also watched for his mistakes. We traveled together for almost four months, but during all that time Ralph never took me aside to offer any instruction. He was cordial enough when we were away from the table, but when the matches began he was a fierce and friendless competitor."

By the end of the tour they stood 57-50 games, but most of Willie's wins came in the final month.

I had breakfast with author JD Dolan at the DCC a couple of years ago and he told me he was working on a book on Greenleaf's life and recounted several stories. It sounds like it'll be a wonderful read.

Lou Figueroa

Really, It looks like it says exactly that. He learned a lot from Greenleaf on that tour.

 

[lfigueroa]

Really, It looks like it says exactly that. He learned a lot from Greenleaf on that tour.

The OP's original question was "Would Mosconi had been great if he hadn't toured and played 100 or so games with Greenleaf?" I was responding to that when I started my post with, "Probably not..."

Lou Figueroa
really

 

[Celtic]

He hadn't toured and played 100 or so games with Greenleaf?
I think Mosconi would have been at least the equal of Caras or Crane.
But was that intense learning time with Greenleaf as a young man that made him so much better then his peers?

Mosconi went on that tour with Greenleaf at such a young age because he was already recognized as a phenom, future world champion, and the likely successor to Greenleaf. He had freakish talent at a very young age that surpassed all of the other young players and that is why he went on the road with Greenleaf instead of the other guys.

 

[Bavafongoul]

It's an interesting question......I think the competitive drive was elevated playing a champion like Greenleaf everyday and then to basically dominate him on the road and in championship play too.....Ralph punched a hole in the Grand Ballroom of the Astoria Hotel in Chicago after Willie had just badly beaten Ralph again for one of Willie's many "consecutive" world championships.

Here's an analogy......and I think it's valid and applicable...... Derek Jeter would have still been a great shortstop in baseball even if he never played with the New York Yankees.....that's just the way he's built....tremendous competitive drive, incredible desire to win at all costs, just a phenomenal work ethic unmatched by others......he would have been a great baseball player because of who Derek Jeter was as a person.....playing for the New York Yankees just afforded him the opportunity to do it on the world's biggest stage, afforded him opportunities to compete and play with admittedly some of the greatest players and it "ACCELERATED" his playing abilities but it's still Derek on the field and at the plate hitting...just a man playing baseball and he just happens to be wearing a uniform that reads New York Yankees.

p.s. And yes, he is the greatest shortstop to ever play the game........better than Ripken and Wagner.

 

[Grinder313]

I see no correlation... Jeter didn't play one on one with a world beater day after day! Few if any world champs become champs without playing the best to elevate their game. No one tells a new player to find the sucker and pound on him and you will be able to beat the best in 2 years...

 

[Bavafongoul]

Grinder,

I guess the first thing would be to ask is if you're a big baseball fan?

The Jeter analogy is because it's contemporaneous, and he's acknowledged to be one of the greatest players ever to pay the game.
And it's debated a lot but Jeter's stats are irrefutable.....no one has a better record in the baseball playoffs or the World Series and
his regular season career stats also exactly coincide.....he's amazing to have always played at the highest level imaginable.
.
Well, so was Willie....his stats are remarkable.....his record is incredible and his performance was amazing......but it's been suggested
that maybe Willie is only as good as he was because he got to compete head to head with Ralph Greenleaf.....maybe....maybe not.....
I submit that it's the player and not the circumstances....that determines greatness.

Well, that's what will get said about Jeter after this season......would he have been that great if he played for a different team, say in a
smaller market like Kansas City. Did Jeter rise to greatness and fame because he got to play with Yankees, get all those playoff games
under his belt, win all those championships, because of his team or because he was Derek Jeter?

Well, the experience was garnished because he was on a great team......it was the NY Yankees team that provided all those opportunities
for Derek Jeter to perform at the highest level imaginable or attainable......but make no mistake about it whatsoever....it was Derek Jeter
the player that made it happen, not the rest of the team......he made the great plays....he got the winning hit......he did it, not he uniform he wore.

Willie accomplished everything on his own, not because he got to play against Greenleaf on the Brunswick tour......he just got to hone his
skills sooner and Willie soared to fame and legendary status because of how he was built........maybe it happened a little faster or sooner
playing Ralph twice a day for months.....same might be said about Jeter......he got better because he played with the Yankees and therefore
was afforded more opportunities on the field and at the plate. I mean no team in baseball has competed in more Playoff or World Series games
than the New York Yankees. That was a big help to Jeter....but he did it all by himself just like Willie.

Anyway, that's my point.....people will debate endlessly how great Jeter was just like Willie is debated.....but the statistics...the records set......
the hard truth....the cold, brutal facts....Well, it testifies and confirms the greatness of both individuals which is why I used the Jeter example....
I mean Jeter just met with the press yesterday so I thought it was appropriate. Jeter is built to never quit, give it 103% every minute of every
game even when your team is losing.

Here's an amazing statistic.......through 2012, Derek Jeter played 2585 games as the New York Yankees shortstop.........that's a lot of games
and last year, Derek only played 17 games for the Yankees due to injuries...........................Derek Jeter has played 2602 games as a New York
Yankee and in all of those games......every single game of the 2602 games Derek Jeter played as a New York Yankee.....of all those games
combined, there was only....one.....(1)....game....that's right......only one game Derek Jeter ever played as a New York Yankee was his team
eliminated from the Playoffs.

That's right......every game......except for one solitary game.......Derek Jeter competed at the highest level in every game to help his team make
the Play-offs. Yup,.......there was only one game in his entire career that didn't matter and he still played every but as hard in that game too....that's
just how Derek Jeter is built. He always competed to win and all of his Yankee teams, except for one year, were statistically eliminated from making
playoffs. That's why Derek never quits....he always competes to win it all....and doesn't obviously.....but he never stops trying.....that was Willie too.

That's why I offered the comparison.....I wasn't trying to brag about Derek Jeter or the Yankees......I just think Willie did not become the greatest
pool player, although some might still disagree but I dunno why.......because he got to play against Ralph Greenleaf.........I don't Derek Jeter became
the greatest shortstop to play baseball, although some might disagree, merely because he played with the New York Yankees......the bottom-line is
it's the man rather than the circumstances but nonetheless, the right circumstances will help to make it happen faster......but that's just my opinion.

Matt B.

I see no correlation... Jeter didn't play one on one with a world beater day after day! Few if any world champs become champs without playing the best to elevate their game. No one tells a new player to find the sucker and pound on him and you will be able to beat the best in 2 years...

 

[Grinder313]

I agree with some of your points. He was already a great player but he got to study the best their was at the time. Jeter would have been just as good anywhere he played, he is/was just that good. He would not have been as successful in a smaller market.

 

[macguy]

Mosconi went on that tour with Greenleaf at such a young age because he was already recognized as a phenom, future world champion, and the likely successor to Greenleaf. He had freakish talent at a very young age that surpassed all of the other young players and that is why he went on the road with Greenleaf instead of the other guys.

Although young, it was in 1933 they went on tour for Brunswick. Some people mix up the first time they played when Mosconi was 6 with the later tour when he was 20. Surpassingly in 1919 when they played and Mosconi was 6 Greenleaf himself was only 20 and had just won a world championship.

There is a famous picture Greenleaf and Mosconi together when he was 6 but it would not be till about 13 years later before he came in contact with Greenleaf again during tournament play.


It is interesting when you start researching and cross referencing this stuff. I didn't know till just now when I looked it up how young Greenleaf was. In those old pictures you see those guys looked so old back then.