Would one of the makers give some insight into the performance properties and engineering of the butt of a cue?

[JoeyInCali]

Being a full splice it would be hard to determine the bottom of the forearm, but because the splice was further back on the butt and a bit shorter I would say that forearm would be quite a bit longer. So more solid maple before the splice. The joint I keep a standard which ends up being around the 0.745" mark the butt cap was probably 1.235 or so.. Cant remember exactly now. The take away from me was extending the maple and a little more flex in the forearm of the cue. Rather than all of it in the shaft.

.745?
SW is about .830 at the joint at 1.060 12" down. And around 1.260 at the bottom.
Basically, the forearm taper is some .220" and the handle taper is around .200.
Really stiff forearm .
Yours sounds a like huge curve .
It will be tough to find an aftermarket shaft at .745" joint size

 

[Canadian cue]

.745?
SW is about .830 at the joint at 1.060 12" down. And around 1.260 at the bottom.
Basically, the forearm taper is some .220" and the handle taper is around .200.
Really stiff forearm .
Yours sounds a like huge curve .
It will be tough to find an aftermarket shaft at .745" joint size

my mistake..0.845"

 

[JoeyInCali]

my mistake..0.845"

Not much of a curve for a parabolic taper.
Maybe it's just dual or compound taper.

 

[Thunder Thighs]

Totally unscientific observation.
I have 3 cues.Schmelke,Lucasi and a Troy Downey.
I have a habit while waiting my turn to shoot is to hold the cue just above the joint and tap it against the side my foot.
All 3 cues vibrate differently.
I have no ides what this means if anything.
None of the cues have a steel joint collar and all 3 have different pins.

Depends on what shoe you're wearing at the time.

 

[garczar]

SIZE can be a factor.

 

[WilleeCue]

Basicly it is my opion that the but of the cue is the highly decorated part that acts as a handle to push the shaft with. It also adds weight and balance but not much more than that. Play-ability is in the shaft profile and joint. Just my take for what it is worth.

 

[Canadian cue]

Basicly it is my opion that the but of the cue is the highly decorated part that acts as a handle to push the shaft with. It also adds weight and balance but not much more than that. Play-ability is in the shaft profile and joint. Just my take for what it is worth.

Now take that thought and consider if you extended the length of your shaft another 12" how that would effect the hit. Why do you think that in snooker they have a 3/4 shaft cue? The two piece cue was designed to make it easier to transport not because it made for a better playing cue, it also made it easier to manufacture in a lathe. One piece cues are traditionally made by hand because turning it in a lathe would be very difficult. Having said all that to me the question is using only half the cue as the "play-ability" a compromise? This is just food for thought.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Now take that thought and consider if you extended the length of your shaft another 12" how that would effect the hit. Why do you think that in snooker they have a 3/4 shaft cue?View attachment 660953

3/4 joint cue is for the longer tables so the joint doesn't pass the bridge. It isn't for feel.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Compound taper hits better!

How do you measure hit? I think it is like identifying ingredients in a meal.

Was a place in Duarte CA that was famous for their Vegetable Soup, people use to try and guess how it was made.

But only Owner & Chef knew how it was made, the ingredients, and last how it came to be. Place closed, and the ingredients, and preparation remained a secret.

 

[Canadian cue]

3/4 joint cue is for the longer tables so the joint doesn't pass the bridge. It isn't for feel.

You will have to explain that, at what point are you resting the middle of a cue on a bridge? You still rest the cue in the same place on the cue on a snooker table as you would a pool table. Only difference being the rest has a longer handle and you have an extension screwed or slipped onto the end of your cue.

 

[JoeyInCali]

How do you measure hit? I think it is like identifying ingredients in a meal.

Was a place in Duarte CA that was famous for their Vegetable Soup, people use to try and guess how it was made.

But only Owner & Chef knew how it was made, the ingredients, and last how it came to be. Place closed, and the ingredients, and preparation remained a secret.

Stick to soup

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Stick to soup

Well again you avoid question, how do you measure hit scientifically?

 

[WilleeCue]

Didnt someone do a blind joint test at one of the conferences years ago?
Taped the joint and had players hit and rate the feel of it.
Most could not guess which joint was which but the 3/8 x 10 flat faced joint was an overwhelming favorite.
Feel and playabilaty is like taste in fine wine, beer, wiskey, rifles, shotguns, cars and just about anything else.
Its a good thing for that because otherwise there would only be a need for one cue maker and one style of cue.
The Tip, Ferrule, Shaft profile, and Joint is where is at!
Ill let someone else explain about snooker cues as I know nothing about them other than most are Ash shafts and longer.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

You will have to explain that, at what point are you resting the middle of a cue on a bridge? You still rest the cue in the same place on the cue on a snooker table as you would a pool table. Only difference being the rest has a longer handle and you have an extension screwed or slipped onto the end of your cue.

When you are reaching on a twelve foot table with a mech bridge.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Well again you avoid question, how do you measure hit scientifically?

It's easy.
I make mock-ups and test them myself.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Didnt someone do a blind joint test at one of the conferences years ago?
Taped the joint and had players hit and rate the feel of it.
Most could not guess which joint was which but the 3/8 x 10 flat faced joint was an overwhelming favorite.
Feel and playabilaty is like taste in fine wine, beer, wiskey, rifles, shotguns, cars and just about anything else.
Its a good thing for that because otherwise there would only be a need for one cue maker and one style of cue.
The Tip, Ferrule, Shaft profile, and Joint is where is at!
Ill let someone else explain about snooker cues as I know nothing about them other than most are Ash shafts and longer.

It was pointless.
They were different cues.
If they were all made the same way with the same woods and just varied by screw type, then that test would have made a lot more sense.

 

[phreaticus]

Stored kinetic energy is the basis behind any tool used to deflect energy, be it bat, club , racket or anvil. There is a collision between the end of the cue and the cue ball. There is energy in that collision, and it has to go somewhere. The cue absorbs that energy and to a certain degree momentarily stores that energy and reflects it back into the cue ball. Kinda like a good forged anvil will put the energy of the hammer back into the metal rather than absorb it like a cast anvil will. IMO a well designed cue will reflect more of the energy of the collision back into the cue ball making it easier to move the cue ball around with less of a stroke. How the cue absorbs the energy is a big part of the engineering of a cue. The materials, how they are assembled and the profile of the taper are all going to effect this. To prove what does what is quite difficult but through trial and error you can come to some conclusions.

Not a cue maker. But I share your theories & consider them quite valid & also very much like @kling&allen ‘s concept of ultrasonic wave testing.

I work in the field of wireless communucations; in RF propagation through antennas etc, there is the concept of Voltage Standing Wave Ratio (VSWR) where the reflected wave in a transmission line with imperfectly matched impedance results in significantly reduced output power. This concept applies to any EE circuit, but the power levels in radio systems has dramatic affects on system performance, is easily measured & widely documented and provides the easiest graphics to understand the energy/wave concepts.

The same thing occurs in any resonant medium, and is the basis for tonal quality in musical instruments, and of course applies to cues also. The wiki article on resonance is quite good.

This is why butt & joint design certainly do play a part in how a cue feels/plays/sounds. Those that say butts don’t matter much, “its all in the shaft”, don’t understand these physics issues. Granted, at the low frequencies that exist in cue materials, these effects are subtle but still quite real. Non believers can simply put the same shaft on different butts - tapping the shaft near the tip, while gripping the butt far back on each combo, one can easily observe & feel variations in the vibrations/feedback.

Cool thread.

 

[Canadian cue]

When you are reaching on a twelve foot table with a mech bridge.

I will have to respectfully disagree with, if you are bridging half way down the the cue you would have no control whatsoever. They have long handle bridges for that very reason.

 

[kling&allen]

Not a cue maker. But I share your theories & consider them quite valid & also very much like @kling&allen ‘s concept of ultrasonic wave testing.

I work in the field of wireless communucations; in RF propagation through antennas etc, there is the concept of Voltage Standing Wave Ratio (VSWR) where the reflected wave in a transmission line with imperfectly matched impedance results in significantly reduced output power. This concept applies to any EE circuit, but the power levels in radio systems has dramatic affects on system performance, is easily measured & widely documented and provides the easiest graphics to understand the energy/wave concepts.

The same thing occurs in any resonant medium, and is the basis for tonal quality in musical instruments, and of course applies to cues also. The wiki article on resonance is quite good.

This is why butt & joint design certainly do play a huge part in how a cue feels/plays/sounds. Those that say butts don’t matter much, “its all in the shaft”, don’t understand these physics issues. Granted, at the low frequencies that exist in cue materials, these effects are subtle but still quite real. Non believers can simply put the same shaft on different butts - tapping the shaft near the tip, while gripping the butt far back on each combo, one can easily observe & feel variations in the vibrations/feedback.

Cool thread.

I agree on the parallels of wave physics across all mediums and wave types! I also think points, joints, and cuts within the butt produce wave refraction that could be measured (just as light bends as it passes through different mediums).

Of course I don't think any of this impacts play (a broom stick plays fine), but it's interesting to try to quantify why some cues hit better than other cues. Or why one blank of maple is better than another blank of maple from the same tree.

 

[Renegade_56]

The more you can make a custom 2 piece cue play like a good 1 piece cue the better playing you can make. There are many things done to make cosmetically beautiful cues, mostly for more money, that do nothing to enhance play, and in my opinion often have a negative playability affect. Common sense says when 2 pieces of wood are of different length and all else being equal, then surely more energy can and will be transfered through the center of the longer piece from a hit directly on it's end.