Would one of the makers give some insight into the performance properties and engineering of the butt of a cue?

[GentlemanJames]

Hi Guys, Looooong time Lurker, first-time posting. While we rightfully hear so much about tip, ferrule, shaft, and joint, in terms of how a cue feels upon hit, I have certain cue butts which cause a shaft to hit much stiffer and uncomfortably than others. I'd like to understand more of why this is so; and, how a 2-piece vs 1-piece cue butt is all about in terms construction, physics and engineering properties. Any insights are appreciated. Thanks, GJ

 

[scdiveteam]

Hi,

Everyone has an opinion but physics and geometry rules from an objective point of view.

The thing is not everyone likes the same attributes of a butt configuration, feel, sound, weight and balance point.

So it is subjective to a players preference.

Rick

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Hi Guys, Looooong time Lurker, first-time posting. While we rightfully hear so much about tip, ferrule, shaft, and joint, in terms of how a cue feels upon hit, I have certain cue butts which cause a shaft to hit much stiffer and uncomfortably than others. I'd like to understand more of why this is so; and, how a 2-piece vs 1-piece cue butt is all about in terms construction, physics and engineering properties. Any insights are appreciated. Thanks, GJ

It has about as much effect on your pool game as the vanity license plate has on your ability to drive.

It may make you feel good, which will help you mentally, but it really doesn't matter.

That said, the butt can't be a distraction, either.

 

[kling&allen]

Hi Guys, Looooong time Lurker, first-time posting. While we rightfully hear so much about tip, ferrule, shaft, and joint, in terms of how a cue feels upon hit, I have certain cue butts which cause a shaft to hit much stiffer and uncomfortably than others. I'd like to understand more of why this is so; and, how a 2-piece vs 1-piece cue butt is all about in terms construction, physics and engineering properties. Any insights are appreciated. Thanks, GJ

This book has a good starting explanation of the various construction techniques.

The Cue Building Book: From Tree, To Tip, To Trade Show! Fifth Edition. - Cue Man Billiard Products

By: Chris Hightower This is the most extensive book on cue building written to date. As the title suggests, it takes you through the complete cue building process from the sawmill, to the finished cue, to marketing your cues. It covers many things that the videos don’t. However, it is said that...

www.cuesmith.com

 

[Kim Bye]

A cue is the sum of all it's parts. Those parts can vary quite a bit in density and harness, so there are many factors that can explain why your cues feel differently.
If you would tell us what cues you have and maybe add some pictures, you might get a more specific answer.

 

[Michael Webb]

A cue is the sum of all it's parts. Those parts can vary quite a bit in density and harness, so there are many factors that can explain why your cues feel differently.

Well said.

 

[Zerksies]

A cue is the sum of all it's parts. Those parts can vary quite a bit in density and harness, so there are many factors that can explain why your cues feel differently.
If you would tell us what cues you have and maybe add some pictures, you might get a more specific answer.

I just got a new cue. I replaced my old cue of 20 years. It had a stainless steel joint. I went to a cue with a micarta Joint. I thought they messed up and put a hard tip on my cue. So i swapped out tips for a Super soft one like i asked, and it had the same feel as the old tip that i had them put on my new cue. So lesson learned Micarta has a firmer feel then Stainless.

 

[Kim Bye]

I just got a new cue. I replaced my old cue of 20 years. It had a stainless steel joint. I went to a cue with a micarta Joint. I thought they messed up and put a hard tip on my cue. So i swapped out tips for a Super soft one like i asked, and it had the same feel as the old tip that i had them put on my new cue. So lesson learned Micarta has a firmer feel then Stainless.

I think you are jumping to conclusions a bit here, or I might be misunderstanding you. If you don't try things back to back with exactly the same parameters, the tip, ferrule material, shaft material and taper will always make up most of what you feel. How your old cue is made versus the new one probably have more diffrences than the joint collar material, but it just not obvious when looking at the cue. Some players feel that a SS collar give the cue more of a "ping" sound.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Compound taper hits better!

 

[Sheldon]

I just got a new cue. I replaced my old cue of 20 years. It had a stainless steel joint. I went to a cue with a micarta Joint. I thought they messed up and put a hard tip on my cue. So i swapped out tips for a Super soft one like i asked, and it had the same feel as the old tip that i had them put on my new cue. So lesson learned Micarta has a firmer feel then Stainless.

The joint material in a completely different cue is going to factor so minutely into the different feel of the cue, it's not even worth mentioning.
(In my opinion, of course.)

 

[Dave38]

I just got a new cue. I replaced my old cue of 20 years. It had a stainless steel joint. I went to a cue with a micarta Joint. I thought they messed up and put a hard tip on my cue. So i swapped out tips for a Super soft one like i asked, and it had the same feel as the old tip that i had them put on my new cue. So lesson learned Micarta has a firmer feel then Stainless.

what was the old ferrule made of, and what is the new one? Much more important than the joint material when talking about the feel of the hit

 

[Thunder Thighs]

I just got a new cue. I replaced my old cue of 20 years. It had a stainless steel joint. I went to a cue with a micarta Joint. I thought they messed up and put a hard tip on my cue. So i swapped out tips for a Super soft one like i asked, and it had the same feel as the old tip that i had them put on my new cue. So lesson learned Micarta has a firmer feel then Stainless.

Kind of like saying, I drove a 4 door Toyota Corolla for 20 years. Replaced it with a 2 door pickup truck. The 2 door definitely has a bumpier ride than a 4 door.

 

[Canadian cue]

I had a bit of an epiphany a while back when it came to cue design. I built a conversion cue from an old ebony Dufferin house cue and it turned out to be one of best hitting cues. I realize that hit is subjective but I will elaborate. What I really liked about the cue was that it transferred a lot of energy to the cue ball with what seemed like not much of a stroke. So I tried to analyze what was the biggest contributing factors. Starting from the tip back. The tip was a med tip I had used a thousand times as well as the Juma threaded ferrule. The shaft was a nice tight grained piece of maple with a parabolic taper of my specs. The butt had a big brass pin with only a small Phenolic joint ring on either side of the joint. The full splice was fairly far back on the butt but with the brass pin it balanced out almost perfect. My only deviation in construction was the taper of the butt, I continued the parabolic taper of the shaft into the forearm. So I concluded that what I liked about the hit had to do with stored kinetic energy, kind of like a golf ball. The more energy the cue can store and transfer back into the cue ball the nicer the hit. On this particular cue with the splice far back on the butt and the extended parabolic taper the cue flexed far along the length of the cue rather than partially down the shaft or at the joint. In snooker players always preferred one piece or three quarter shaft cues. It is my belief that the reason for that is that laminations or where the two woods are spliced and the joint disturb the energy transfer from the collision of the cue ball and the cue. IMO cues are a lot like many other devices used to hit a ball. Racket, club or bat they all are about stored kinetic energy, The technology they put into golf clubs has definitely helped drive the ball further than they used too. At the end of the day stroke trumps the cue but the cue can help or hinder the results.

 

[GoldCrown]

The cue a player plays best with is a great cue.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I had a bit of an epiphany a while back when it came to cue design. I built a conversion cue from an old ebony Dufferin house cue and it turned out to be one of best hitting cues. I realize that hit is subjective but I will elaborate. What I really liked about the cue was that it transferred a lot of energy to the cue ball with what seemed like not much of a stroke. So I tried to analyze what was the biggest contributing factors. Starting from the tip back. The tip was a med tip I had used a thousand times as well as the Juma threaded ferrule. The shaft was a nice tight grained piece of maple with a parabolic taper of my specs. The butt had a big brass pin with only a small Phenolic joint ring on either side of the joint. The full splice was fairly far back on the butt but with the brass pin it balanced out almost perfect. My only deviation in construction was the taper of the butt, I continued the parabolic taper of the shaft into the forearm. So I concluded that what I liked about the hit had to do with stored kinetic energy, kind of like a golf ball. The more energy the cue can store and transfer back into the cue ball the nicer the hit. On this particular cue with the splice far back on the butt and the extended parabolic taper the cue flexed far along the length of the cue rather than partially down the shaft or at the joint. In snooker players always preferred one piece or three quarter shaft cues. It is my belief that the reason for that is that laminations or where the two woods are spliced and the joint disturb the energy transfer from the collision of the cue ball and the cue. IMO cues are a lot like many other devices used to hit a ball. Racket, club or bat they all are about stored kinetic energy, The technology they put into golf clubs has definitely helped drive the ball further than they used too. At the end of the day stroke trumps the cue but the cue can help or hinder the results.

Where is all of this stored kinetic energy? Did you install a flywheel on the cue?

It may be a matter of better transfer of energy, but it is mostly in your head.

You've made a hypothesis and jumped to a conclusion without any scientific testing or verifiable results.

Of course, is there same thing that predator, mezz, meucci, etc. do, so there is that.

 

[kling&allen]

Where is all of this stored kinetic energy? Did you install a flywheel on the cue?

It may be a matter of better transfer of energy, but it is mostly in your head.

You've made a hypothesis and jumped to a conclusion without any scientific testing or verifiable results.

Of course, is there same thing that predator, mezz, meucci, etc. do, so there is that.

I've thought of building something like this to see if there are any easily quantifiable differences between good and bad hitting cues.

Ultrasonic guided wave measurement in a wooden rod using shear transducer arrays

Research related to acoustic/ultrasonic guided wave testing in wood is still at an early stage. This paper describes the first study to perform ultras…

www.sciencedirect.com

Some wood industries measure their blanks with these techniques prior to building their products. I don't know if any of the big cue companies do.

 

[Canadian cue]

Stored kinetic energy is the basis behind any tool used to deflect energy, be it bat, club , racket or anvil. There is a collision between the end of the cue and the cue ball. There is energy in that collision, and it has to go somewhere. The cue absorbs that energy and to a certain degree momentarily stores that energy and reflects it back into the cue ball. Kinda like a good forged anvil will put the energy of the hammer back into the metal rather than absorb it like a cast anvil will. IMO a well designed cue will reflect more of the energy of the collision back into the cue ball making it easier to move the cue ball around with less of a stroke. How the cue absorbs the energy is a big part of the engineering of a cue. The materials, how they are assembled and the profile of the taper are all going to effect this. To prove what does what is quite difficult but through trial and error you can come to some conclusions.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I had a bit of an epiphany a while back when it came to cue design. I built a conversion cue from an old ebony Dufferin house cue and it turned out to be one of best hitting cues. I realize that hit is subjective but I will elaborate. What I really liked about the cue was that it transferred a lot of energy to the cue ball with what seemed like not much of a stroke. So I tried to analyze what was the biggest contributing factors. Starting from the tip back. The tip was a med tip I had used a thousand times as well as the Juma threaded ferrule. The shaft was a nice tight grained piece of maple with a parabolic taper of my specs. The butt had a big brass pin with only a small Phenolic joint ring on either side of the joint. The full splice was fairly far back on the butt but with the brass pin it balanced out almost perfect. My only deviation in construction was the taper of the butt, I continued the parabolic taper of the shaft into the forearm. So I concluded that what I liked about the hit had to do with stored kinetic energy, kind of like a golf ball. The more energy the cue can store and transfer back into the cue ball the nicer the hit. On this particular cue with the splice far back on the butt and the extended parabolic taper the cue flexed far along the length of the cue rather than partially down the shaft or at the joint. In snooker players always preferred one piece or three quarter shaft cues. It is my belief that the reason for that is that laminations or where the two woods are spliced and the joint disturb the energy transfer from the collision of the cue ball and the cue. IMO cues are a lot like many other devices used to hit a ball. Racket, club or bat they all are about stored kinetic energy, The technology they put into golf clubs has definitely helped drive the ball further than they used too. At the end of the day stroke trumps the cue but the cue can help or hinder the results.

What was the joint size? Bottom of the forearm and very bottom?

 

[Canadian cue]

What was the joint size? Bottom of the forearm and very bottom?

Being a full splice it would be hard to determine the bottom of the forearm, but because the splice was further back on the butt and a bit shorter I would say that forearm would be quite a bit longer. So more solid maple before the splice. The joint I keep a standard which ends up being around the 0.845" mark the butt cap was probably 1.235 or so.. Cant remember exactly now. The take away from me was extending the maple and a little more flex in the forearm of the cue. Rather than all of it in the shaft.

 

[measureman]

Totally unscientific observation.
I have 3 cues.Schmelke,Lucasi and a Troy Downey.
I have a habit while waiting my turn to shoot is to hold the cue just above the joint and tap it against the side my foot.
All 3 cues vibrate differently.
I have no ides what this means if anything.
None of the cues have a steel joint collar and all 3 have different pins.