Would You Still Gamble With This Guy?

[Get_A_Grip]

I think you made a mistake here, but know that I'm not an experienced player or gambler. His soft break was a foul, as you point out. At that point you have ball in hand, anywhere on the table. When he said "I get all the breaks!" you should have said, "yes, but that was a foul, and I now have ball in hand." Your shot from ball in hand is not a break.

From the Billiard Congress of America rules:

"3. LEGAL BREAK SHOT. The rules governing the break shot are the same as for other shots except:
a. The breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.
b. If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table."

(Emphasis mine.)

Ahhhh...that's interesting that those are the BCA rules. Before the set he looked up the UPA rules and I think that it said that 3 balls need to hit the rail for a legal break. Both of our assumptions were that if he didn't drive 3 balls to a rail, that the other player would get to break. But it seems like we had that wrong. We were playing 10-ball though, and not 8-ball. Not sure if that changes the breaking rules for the BCA.

NOTE: We didn't establish that we were playing any "standard" set of rules (like the BCA) before we started. We only clarified that it was call shot and if someone slopped a ball in, it was the next player's choice to pass the next shot back to the shooter.

 

[jviss]

Ahhhh...that's interesting that those are the BCA rules. Before the set he looked up the UPA rules and I think that it said that 3 balls need to hit the rail for a legal break. Both of our assumptions were that if he didn't drive 3 balls to a rail, that the other player would get to break. But it seems like we had that wrong. We were playing 10-ball though, and not 8-ball. Not sure if that changes the breaking rules for the BCA.

NOTE: We didn't establish that we were playing any "standard" set of rules (like the BCA) before we started. We only clarified that it was call shot and if someone slopped a ball in, it was the next player's choice to pass the next shot back to the shooter.

Whoops, I assumed you were playing 9 ball! Let me check 10 ball.

 

[Black-Balled]

I think you made a mistake here, but know that I'm not an experienced player or gambler. His soft break was a foul, as you point out. At that point you have ball in hand, anywhere on the table. When he said "I get all the breaks!" you should have said, "yes, but that was a foul, and I now have ball in hand." Your shot from ball in hand is not a break.

From the Billiard Congress of America rules:

"3. LEGAL BREAK SHOT. The rules governing the break shot are the same as for other shots except:
a. The breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.
b. If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table."

(Emphasis mine.)

Agreed.

Getting all the breaks is a handicap that ends the moment the break shot is struck.

 

[jviss]

UPA 10 Ball Rule on breaks:

"3.0 LEGAL BREAK SHOT
For the break shot to be legal, the breaker (with the base of the cue ball placed anywhere behind the head string) must either pocket an object ball or drive at least three (3) object balls to one or more rails. If the breaker fails to make the legal break requirement, the balls will be re-racked and the opponent shall have the option of breaking, or requesting the offending player to break again."

(Emphasis mine.)

You should have just made him keep breaking until he achieved a legal break. Yes, you're right, 3 balls to the rail. I don't think you should have proceeded from an illegal break.

 

[jviss]

(what are the chances you could take him by sandbagging through a few games and increasing the bet?)

 

[Get_A_Grip]

Agreed.

Getting all the breaks is a handicap that ends the moment the break shot is struck.

We play 8-ball about 99% of the time where if someone fouls on the break, the other players has a choice for them to break the balls. It appears that I may have overlooked the fact that the 10-ball breaking rules are different.

EDIT: It appears that the rules were from UPA that he gets to re-break.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

(what are the chances you could take him by sandbagging through a few games and increasing the bet?)

Zero. He knows exactly how I play. We're on the same team. He just saw me run the first 2 out of 3 games in leagues. LOL

 

[Get_A_Grip]

UPA 10 Ball Rule on breaks:

"3.0 LEGAL BREAK SHOT
For the break shot to be legal, the breaker (with the base of the cue ball placed anywhere behind the head string) must either pocket an object ball or drive at least three (3) object balls to one or more rails. If the breaker fails to make the legal break requirement, the balls will be re-racked and the opponent shall have the option of breaking, or requesting the offending player to break again."

(Emphasis mine.)

You should have just made him keep breaking until he achieved a legal break. Yes, you're right, 3 balls to the rail. I don't think you should have proceeded from an illegal break.

Yeah, I thought of that, but I'm sure he would have just kept trying until 3 balls just barely hit a rail. The stack would have been just about the same as only 2 balls hitting the rail. So I just played from there.

The one mistake I made was thinking that I had fouled by picking up the cue ball in the first game. I think I could have picked it up and handed it to him and made him re-break. Instead I gave him ball in hand. But that didn't directly cost me the game. Since he had to do a safety anyway.

 

[skankhammer]

I guess. As soon as he got home, he also sent a group text to our team saying that he kicked my @ss and I cried and now I won't play him anymore. He put a lot of funny faces and stuff like it was a joke. Then he texted just me and said, "Sorry bro, I couldn't resist".

I don't care that much. He's the one who blew future action with me and I was bending over backwards to give him a good game.

What a little bitch. I would not play him for his own safety.

 

[maha]

why does a player have to break them the way you want them to. if he can make a soft legal break that is his choice. you are gambling. you try to win that is the purpose of gambling and you play what the rules you play by allow.
its not old school 8 ball in the bar where you get in a fight if you play a safe.
and you didnt know the rules and also picked up the cue ball and gave it to him. none of it makes sense.

if he didnt drive 3 balls to the rail you either will make him break again or he commited a foul and you have ball in hand. and then you could hide him behind the stack.

 

[David in FL]

He’s a bitch, but honestly, it’s as much your fault for not establishing the rules, and then, when/if a dispute came up, resolving it before continuing.

I’d continue to play the little shit, but my attitude would be a little different, and I’d rethink that spot too...

 

[Get_A_Grip]

why does a player have to break them the way you want them to. if he can make a soft legal break that is his choice. you are gambling. you try to win that is the purpose of gambling and you play what the rules you play by allow.
its not old school 8 ball in the bar where you get in a fight if you play a safe.
and you didnt know the rules and also picked up the cue ball and gave it to him. none of it makes sense.

if he didnt drive 3 balls to the rail you either will make him break again or he commited a foul and you have ball in hand. and then you could hide him behind the stack.

Yeah, I know NOW that he gets to break again. I thought that if he fouled on the break that I would get the choice to break. We very rarely play 10-ball, so neither of us knew the "standard" rules. He obviously had the choice to do a chicken sh!t break, but I won't ever gamble with anyone that would pull that. Simple.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

He’s a bitch, but honestly, it’s as much your fault for not establishing the rules, and then, when/if a dispute came up, resolving it before continuing.

I’d continue to play the little shit, but my attitude would be a little different, and I’d rethink that spot too...

To me the money doesn't matter too much. I play because I enjoy playing. Winning while giving a huge spot is also quite satisfying, because it's a real test. I just could NEVER enjoy playing a game where someone leaves the entire rack intact and you need to bunt balls around the stack for 15 minutes before they are run-able. So I'm pretty much done playing that guy ever again.

 

[David in FL]

To me the money doesn't matter too much. I play because I enjoy playing. Winning while giving a huge spot is also quite satisfying, because it's a real test. I just could NEVER enjoy playing a game where someone leaves the entire rack intact and you need to bunt balls around the stack for 15 minutes before they are run-able. So I'm pretty much done playing that guy ever again.

The first thing I would do though moving forward would be to clarify the rules. That was the issue. Would you also refuse to play someone who played safeties all the time? It’s part of the game, within the rules. Again, I’d clarify the correct rules...

 

[michael4]

I’d continue to play the little shit, but my attitude would be a little different, and I’d rethink that spot too...

^This, sounds like its hard to find people to gamble with, so sometimes you have to play with who ever is available...just change the rules, no soft breaks.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

The first thing I would do though moving forward would be to clarify the rules. That was the issue. Would you also refuse to play someone who played safeties all the time? It’s part of the game, within the rules. Again, I’d clarify the correct rules...

Of course not. Safeties are part of the game. But an illegal break, leaving all of the balls in the rack area is ridiculous. The cue ball rolls behind the back side of the rack and I have to push out? So then he can keep thinning the 1 ball and make me kick until the rack opens up. No fun at all. He said that he will do whatever he needs to in order to win. That's fine. But a guy that would pull that move, I'm not interested in playing for money.

While the every rule wasn't clear, when giving a spot like he gets all of the breaks, it complicates the rules in this exact situation. No way we could have foreseen him doing illegal breaks.

The best way to play I've found, is just to say that we'll be using BCA rules. But for 10-ball, neither of us know what the BCA rules are.

 

[David in FL]

Of course not. Safeties are part of the game. But an illegal break, leaving all of the balls in the rack area is ridiculous. The cue ball rolls behind the back side of the rack and I have to push out? So then he can keep thinning the 1 ball and make me kick until the rack opens up. No fun at all. He said that he will do whatever he needs to in order to win. That's fine. But I guy that would pull that move, I'm not interested in playing for money.

That’s why I say, moving forward, clarify the rules which don’t allow for that type of break.

For what it’s worth, a 540 isn’t going to break and run very often. I‘d give him the break all day long too.

 

[gmillioni]

I'm just curious what everyone thinks of this gambling story that happened last night after leagues. I've been gambling with this teammate many times before after our leagues. Normally between $50 and $100 a set. Based on our preliminary Fargo Ratings, I'm supposed to play him with me going to 7 and him going to 6. However, I've beat him in the past playing 8-ball at 5-3 and he gets all the breaks, at 6-3 winner breaks, and at 9-5 and he gets all of the breaks. He beat me at 9-5 winner breaks once by 1 game, and a couple other times playing 10 ball at 9-5 with him getting the 9 ball.

So last night I was playing really good. I won all 3 of my games with 2 table runs. This guy won all 3 games, but made a few mistakes. Because I felt good I decided I would play him and give him a spot again. We played 10-ball with me going to 7 and him going to 5, he gets the 10 ball, and he gets all of the breaks for $50.

He gets up 3-1 (including the spot) and he decides that he's not going to break the balls anymore. He just slowly rolled the cue ball into the rack where only 1 or 2 balls hit the rail. He did it on purpose. (An illegal break). The first time he did it, I grabbed the cue ball so I could break. Then he reminded me that he gets ALL THE BREAKS. So he took ball in hand and kept playing safeties behind the rack so I had to keep kicking at the 1 ball until the balls were open enough for him to run out.

He did this the last 2 games until he got to 5 games and won. I was obviously protesting that it was a chicken sh!t move and he admitted that why should he break them open and if he doesn't make a ball, then I could run out and catch up. He then said that he will do whatever he needs to do to win.

Well, my conclusion was that I mainly am playing for the fun of it and it's not enjoyable to play with someone who would do that. It's just not "pool" to me at all with that type of illegal soft break. I basically told him that "he blew it". I was giving him huge spots giving him a really good chance to win, because he would never play 7-6 like Fargo Rate says. And then with a big spot, he had to pull that move on top of it. So I said I wouldn't be playing him anymore.

What do you say? I'm also curious on what everyone thinks could have been done with an illegal break (3 balls or more didn't hit the rail) and he was getting all of the breaks? I didn't make him re-break, because he could have just re-broke until only 3 balls hit a rail and I would be in nearly the same spot.

i would play him but if he gets all the breaks then he must drive at least four balls to a rail to be legit. otherwise i agree with him and his way to get a win. pool is cut throat. if you want just fun play for much less and play just as hard.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

That’s why I say, moving forward, clarify the rules which don’t allow for that type of break.

For what it’s worth, a 540 isn’t going to break and run very often. I‘d give him the break all day long too.

Exactly. That's why I did it. In fact, he started to do the safety breaks because one of his first couple breaks, he didn't make a ball and I ran out. He admitted that he was afraid that if he smashed the rack and didn't make a ball, that I would run out again and catch up. But that's POOL. What he was doing was crazy.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

i would play him but if he gets all the breaks then he must drive at least four balls to a rail to be legit. otherwise i agree with him and his way to get a win. pool is cut throat. if you want just fun play for much less and play just as hard.

Pool may be cut-throat, but he's the first person that I've ever played for money for 30 years that ever pulled that. So I will pass on playing him ever again.