Rule 1.5 Cue Ball in Hand says “When the cue ball is in hand, the shooter may place the cue ball anywhere on the playing surface and may continue to move the cue ball until he executes a shot.” Is there a specific rule within the WPA rules regarding using the cue ball to measure a gap when the player has ball in hand? If not, is it covered by the unsportsmanlike conduct rule?
WPA rules regarding using the cue ball as a measuring device
- Thread starter 7Baller
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Good question.
That is interesting. Surely, with BIH you can try to nestle the cue ball into position for the upcoming shot, but what about checking out a close shot later on down the line?
Example (Playing 9 ball): Your opponent scratches on the break, giving you BIH. The 1 is wide open but there's a cluster down table and you're not sure if you have enough room to pocket one of the balls so you take the cue ball and wedge it into position to see if there's room.
Your opponent yells foul and explains that you can only do that on the upcoming shot. You tell him, "I was going to shoot an intentional foul."
His head explodes.
You win.
Too much coffee today for me.
Example (Playing 9 ball): Your opponent scratches on the break, giving you BIH. The 1 is wide open but there's a cluster down table and you're not sure if you have enough room to pocket one of the balls so you take the cue ball and wedge it into position to see if there's room.
Your opponent yells foul and explains that you can only do that on the upcoming shot. You tell him, "I was going to shoot an intentional foul."
His head explodes.
You win.
Too much coffee today for me.
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Yes, there is a rule about using anything as a measuring device. The cueball is something, so part of that anything that can't be used.
Many posts about this over the years. Short simple answer, to judge the gap, use your eyes.
"
3.42 DEVICES
Players are not allowed to use a ball, the triangle or any other width-measuring device to see if the cue ball or an object ball would travel through a gap, etc. Only the cue stick may be used as an aid to judge gaps or as an aid to aligning a shot., so long as the cue is held by the hand. To do so otherwise is a foul and unsportsmanlike conduct.
(Also see Rules 1.3, 1.4 and 2.15)"
From a league ruleset, same thing
"g. you may not use any ball, your cue, the rack, or any other equipment or width-measuring device or any part of your body to determine if the cue ball or an object ball would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cue ball would contact first."
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The BIH rule quoted says the cue ball may be placed anywhere and then moved. No matter what the opponent may say about measuring, the BIH rule is explicit about what may be done.
That rule is not worded that way to allow someone to use the ball as a measuring device, that is also in the rules that you can't. You can move the cueball to line up an angle and then move it again if you want it in another place, the rule is so some idiot does not say once you put the cueball down you can't move it again. If you tried to move it to some gap where it's pretty clear you are not shooting from, I am calling it as a measurement unless it's clear you were seeing if you can shoot from there at a ball. There is a rule about using equipment for what it was intended for, as well as rule specifically prohibiting measuring gaps. All of those trump the "move the cueball where you want" rule on ball in hand. It's not like this is anything new, it's a rule that has been around and talked about in detail for decades and has established rulings.
I think it is not a good idea to restrict where a player may place the cue ball when it is in hand other than to forbid touching any ball in play.
Why not let the player use it as he chooses? I think that avoids arguments. "He was measuring!" "No, I was thinking of playing it from there."
Why not let the player use it as he chooses? I think that avoids arguments. "He was measuring!" "No, I was thinking of playing it from there."
Careful, if we play - your head may explode.
Just watched this very thing done this last weekend at the WPBA event by me.
Player had ball in hand, walked around with cue ball and set it down between rail and another ball that was a little over a balls width away from the rail without letting go of the cueball. Looked to clearly be measuring the gap with the cueball. Player was a top 16 ranked player and no foul was called. I had a vip pass and was sitting directly behind oposing player, so I know she watched her do it.
Player had ball in hand, walked around with cue ball and set it down between rail and another ball that was a little over a balls width away from the rail without letting go of the cueball. Looked to clearly be measuring the gap with the cueball. Player was a top 16 ranked player and no foul was called. I had a vip pass and was sitting directly behind oposing player, so I know she watched her do it.
Not at all, either you are doing it to measure it or you are not. If someone is clearly measuring and has the gall to lie about it, that just puts the player in my "a-hole nit cheater" bin and I avoid being around them. Anyone that feels they need to pull moves during a game, I just feel sorry for them and how they were raised and taught to play.
A lot of these types of rules, unless watched by a ref, are not known or called. I have seen a lot of good pro players play a push shot and think it was legal, in fact a few matches on tape where there was a ref watching had some illegal shots not called. Usually the old school players and players that learned to play at home or in bars without much instruction are the ones that don't know about many rules like push/double hit fouls, rules of the lag, equipment use rules, things like that. The using of a bridge to hold up someone's hand in mid air is one, quite a few people thought it was OK to do, and it was done in pro events a few times, yet is not legal.
If this happens then the whole thing against using equipment to measure may as well be removed. It's silly to say "you can measure if you have ball in hand but no other time". I don't think I would mind that much if the rule against measuring was removed, I don't think it creates too much of an unfair advantage if done, although I'm sure none of us want to start to see people taking out balls and cues and spending 2 minutes with a calculator measuring stuff.
It is similar to say a range finder for pro golfers, they are allowed to use them, but not to measure exact distance on the grass slopes and hills.
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I'm guessing you didn't read my post with the example. The problem with your position is pointed out by my extreme example. Rules should not be based on subjective intent, but by objective actions.
I think it is reasonable to allow the player to plan shots any way they like using their cue stick, their body and the cue ball if it is in hand. Everyone has those available. I think chalk, out of play balls, the bridge, the triangle, etc. should not be allowed into the planning of the shot.
By some rules if you ball up your fist and put it by a gap between balls, you have fouled.
That is actually the opposite of what I remember about the rules, that using your body to measure the distance is OK, just no equipment. So putting in say 3 fingers in the gap, or using your fist to measure the distance is OK. Because it is not a precise measurement, at least that is my view of it. I don't know how others feel, but I think there should be some difficulty to this game, and using equipment to measure gaps to me feels like it makes things a bit easier than the skill reequipment to play should be. Measuring using things like a fist, fingers, something organic and not precise, is a bit more natural.
My view on what should be OK and what is not, is generally based on the idea that if some tool/equipment/device allows you to do something very hard or about impossible and makes it very easy, it should not be in the game. So using a ball to measure the space, very easy, it's known size and is exact, makes the measurement very easy. Fist, not so much, it's a fairly rough estimate. Almost the exact thing I have against jump cues, they make the normally very hard act of getting over a ball trivial due to technology, and in some cases make some absolutely impossible shots possible (say jumping form a ball width or two away), thus cheapening the effort and skill of the game. I have as little interest in executing a shot or winning due to a gimmick as I do from winning by cheating or hiding a foul.
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Your first post here has a league rule to finish.
If my opponent wants to shoot thru a gap so small that he needs the cue ball to measure that gap I'm all for it, hell Ill even get him a ball from the ball return if he doesnt have ball in hand. Looks like its a good shot for me to get ball BIH. Same as those jump shots where he has to jump a ball a couple feet away with a very small landing area, here, let me go get you your jump cue.
Rule 1.3 applies but also is incredibly vague.
“The equipment must meet existing WPA equipment specifications. In general, players are not permitted to introduce novel equipment into the game. The following uses, among others, are considered normal. If the player is uncertain about a particular use of equipment, he should discuss it with the tournament management prior to the start of play. The equipment must beused only for the purpose or in the manner that the equipment was intended. (See 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.)”
I think a case could be made that a cueball or cue stick can’t be used to measure a gap that way (let alone chalk, gloves, mechanical bridges, powder, gloves, etc.)
6.2 let’s you align a shot (assuming that means visualizing angles) with the cue stick. But that doesn’t have to imply measuring a gap.
“If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without
having a hand on the stick, it is a foul.”
This is an area I think the BCAPL rules are significantly more explicit and make it clear what is and is not allowed. Usually in scenarios like this I highly respect whatever Bob Jewett has to say on the matter. It’s always wise and logical. It’s just a bummer WPA rules don’t have explicit wording to reinforce that perspective.
“The equipment must meet existing WPA equipment specifications. In general, players are not permitted to introduce novel equipment into the game. The following uses, among others, are considered normal. If the player is uncertain about a particular use of equipment, he should discuss it with the tournament management prior to the start of play. The equipment must beused only for the purpose or in the manner that the equipment was intended. (See 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.)”
I think a case could be made that a cueball or cue stick can’t be used to measure a gap that way (let alone chalk, gloves, mechanical bridges, powder, gloves, etc.)
6.2 let’s you align a shot (assuming that means visualizing angles) with the cue stick. But that doesn’t have to imply measuring a gap.
“If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without
having a hand on the stick, it is a foul.”
This is an area I think the BCAPL rules are significantly more explicit and make it clear what is and is not allowed. Usually in scenarios like this I highly respect whatever Bob Jewett has to say on the matter. It’s always wise and logical. It’s just a bummer WPA rules don’t have explicit wording to reinforce that perspective.