WPA, WADA, WCBS, and BCA, an Alphabet Soup of Pool Organizations

JAM

JAM

I am the storm
Silver Member
I was curious why it took so long for the WPA to announce its decision about Billy Thorpe's suspension. I was advised to reach out to the North American representative for pool, and so I did. It was stated that between the pandemic, the WCBS committee, and Billy’s attorney, the hearing kept getting pushed back.

Number one, what the heck is a WCBS? I had never heard of it before. Good grief. All these pool organizations.

Some believe these organizations are needed to put pool in the Olympic Games, but read more about the WCBS (World Confederation of Billiards Sports). Founded 30 years ago in Switzerland. Ian Anderson is president, as he is also president of the WPA. WCBS website: https://www.wcbs.sport/

The World Confederation of Billiards Sports (WCBS) has approved and will establish the WCBS Solidarity Anti-Doping Fund. This decision was taken at a recent Board meeting in 2022. The prime task of this Fund will be to raise funds that will be used for anti-doping activities within billiard sports. Mr. Marcin Krzemiński of Poland has been appointed as Chairman of the Fund. He is responsible for the formation of a working Committee to serve on the Council and the implementation of budgets. An "affiliate" of the WPA, a Polish entity, is in charge of the funds and the one providing the drug tests at pool tournaments.

There is a contingency of professional pool supporters who believe in the WPA and its existence, and that the WPA is needed for the betterment of professional pool getting in Olympic Games.

Where is the money going, the "hundreds of thousands of dollars"? To pool organizations or to pro pool players? Somebody is getting fat, but I do not believe it is the pro pool players. Transparency is needed on where the funds go. Pool payouts at tournaments are the same in 2022 as in 1982. Are all these funds going to support the pool organizations?
 
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Taking a stroll on the WCBS website, I wanted to read the articles on the right-hand side: https://www.wcbs.sport/wcbs-establishes-the-wcbs-solidarity-anti-doping-fund/

Every single one of the links goes to a website with Asian writing characters on the tab: https://www.tt003.xyz/index.html

Does anybody know what this is?

123.JPG
 
Maybe they need to create a fund for a
"Worldwide Anti Dick Sucking" fund....
Or WADS. Somebody's definitely getting their penis puffed here.
 
JAM
would like to send you a PM but cant
i am lll (LLL) on onepocket.org
 
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JAM said:
I was curious why it took so long for the WPA to announce its decision about Billy Thorpe's suspension. I was advised to reach out to the North American representative for pool, and so I did. It was stated that between the pandemic, the WCBS committee, and Billy’s attorney, the hearing kept getting pushed back.

Number one, what the heck is a WCBS? I had never heard of it before. Good grief. All these pool organizations.

Some believe these organizations are needed to put pool in the Olympic Games, but read more about the WCBS (World Confederation of Billiards Sports). Founded 30 years ago in Switzerland. Ian Anderson is president, as he is also president of the WPA. WCBS website: https://www.wcbs.sport/

The World Confederation of Billiards Sports (WCBS) has approved and will establish the WCBS Solidarity Anti-Doping Fund. This decision was taken at a recent Board meeting in 2022. The prime task of this Fund will be to raise funds that will be used for anti-doping activities within billiard sports. Mr. Marcin Krzemiński of Poland has been appointed as Chairman of the Fund. He is responsible for the formation of a working Committee to serve on the Council and the implementation of budgets. An "affiliate" of the WPA, a Polish entity, is in charge of the funds and the one providing the drug tests at pool tournaments.

There is a contingency of professional pool supporters who believe in the WPA and its existence, and that the WPA is needed for the betterment of professional pool getting in Olympic Games.

Where is the money going, the "hundreds of thousands of dollars"? To pool organizations or to pro pool players? Somebody is getting fat, but I do not believe it is the pro pool players. Transparency is needed on where the funds go. Pool payouts at tournaments are the same in 2022 as in 1982. Are all these funds going to support the pool organizations?
Click to expand...

JAM, did you see the cue it up interview with the WPA rep? He addresses some of these topics. From what I can tell, most of the money the WCBS and WPA collects goes to drug testing and paying "Olympic consultants" to pitch billiards to the IOC. The WPA board members are not paid. A few other tidbits:

(1) players have to give the WPA 5 percent of their winnings from every WPA sanctioned tournament. This doesn't even cover the WPA's WADA fees for mandatory drug testing.

(2) 2036 is the next year billiards has a shot at the Olympics.
 
That's a superb post, JAM, and it is very well timed!

While I'm generally inclined to conclude that many of the roles played by these organizations are ones that need to be played, at least by somebody, that shouldn't be interpreted as suggesting that I necessarily approve of the shape of pool's worldwide hierarchical structure.

In politics, and pool politics is no exception, fair or not, people tend to credit you for the good things that happened on your watch and blame you for the bad things that happened on your watch. In pool, we've had both the good and the bad.

On balance, I like a lot of what I've seen in world pool over the last 30 years, and government and IOC money, much of which can be traced to pursuit of the Olympic dream, has financed and perpetuated quite a bit of the game's impressive globalization. In the 1980's, the Asian contingent was new, and even by the 1990s, the only Asians participating significantly in international pool were Parica, Reyes and Bustamante. By 2000, Asian participation in the international tournament scene was very substantial and the Asians had become a dominating force in pro pool. In 1990, European pro pool, to most of us, meant just Ortmann and Souquet, but by 2005, Europe's presence in international play had grown substantially, and now it feels as if they are winning almost everything. We've seen growth in participation in pro pool all over the world, and if you told me twenty years ago that Spain would one day meet Singapore in the final of the World Cup of Pool I'd have laughed, but, as we know, it just happened. Pool is, at long last, being played at a very high level all over the world, and it has happened on the watch of the alphabet soup organizations that, admittedly, puzzle you and me equally.

All that said, however, we've been seeing the system go awry more and more, and as I and many others agree, hanging on to the Olympic dream, one that will surely not be fulfilled in my lifetime, may possibly be steering cue sports off course. We are both repulsed by the ban on Russian pros, a ban that wouldn't exist except for the fact that both WPA and BCA feel bound by the edict of WCBS, the cue sports arm of the IOC. We are confused when both event producers and pool's governing bodies take action against a player for the exact same offense. We are, similarly, baffled by the long delay that occurred in the adjudication of the Billy Thorpe case.

Shifting gears, one of the questions one might ask is whether there is a need for pool, carom, and snooker to be unified (theoretically speaking) under a single umbrella in the worldwide administration of cue sports. Many on the forum have, with valid reasons, questioned whether this is really necessary. To be fair, pool's landscape has grown to the point that it is much more difficult to oversee and administer. Perhaps the role has become more than the worldwide organizations, which once had far less on their plates, can handle.

In the end, the two paths are to either work the current system as best as we can or to overhaul it and rebuild it from the ground up. While I'm, at least in theory, on board with either course of action, I've never read on AZB or elsewhere, a comprehensive proposal on how to replace/restructure it. As you say, greater transparency might enable us all to have a firmer grip on the missions and activities of all these organizations, but it seems unlikely that's coming anytime soon.

You're clearly on the right track here, JAM, for the time for review of and possible remodeling or overhaul of the organizations that oversee pool globally is now.

I feel like I understand the current structure better than most, but don't think it hasn't made my head spin on numerous occasions.

Take a deep bow for a well presented and well-judged post.
 
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sjm said:
That's a superb post, JAM, and it is very well timed!

While I'm generally inclined to conclude that many of the roles played by these organizations are ones that need to be played, at least by somebody, that shouldn't be interpreted as suggesting that I necessarily approve of the shape of pool's worldwide hierarchical structure.

In politics, and pool politics is no exception, fair or not, people tend to credit you for the good things that happened on your watch and blame you for the bad things that happened on your watch. In pool, we've had both the good and the bad.

On balance, I like a lot of what I've seen in world pool over the last 30 years, and government and IOC money, much of which can be traced to pursuit of the Olympic dream, has financed and perpetuated quite a bit of the game's impressive globalization. In the 1980's, the Asian contingent was new, and even by the 1990s, the only Asians participating significantly in international pool were Parica, Reyes and Bustamante. By 2000, Asian participation in the international tournament scene was very substantial and the Asians had become a dominating force in pro pool. In 1990, European pro pool, to most of us, meant just Ortmann and Souquet, but by 2005, Europe's presence in international play had grown substantially, and now it feels they are winning almost everything. We've seen growth in participation in pro pool all over the world, and if you told me twenty years ago that Spain would one day meet Singapore in the final of the World Cup of Pool I'd have laughed, but, as we know, it just happened. Pool is, at long last, being played at a very high level all over the world, and it has happened on the watch of the alphabet soup organizations that, admittedly, puzzle you and me equally.

All that said, however, we've been seeing the system go awry more and more, and as I and many others agree, hanging on to the Olympic dream, one that will surely not be fulfilled in my lifetime, may possibly be steering cue sports off course. We are both repulsed by the ban on Russian pros, a ban that wouldn't exist except for the fact that both WPA and BCA feel bound by the edict of WCBS, the cue sports arm of the IOC. We are confused when both event producers and pool's governing bodies take action against a player for the exact same offense. We are, similarly, baffled by the long delay that occurred in the adjudication of the Billy Thorpe case.

Shifting gears, one of the questions one might ask is whether there is a need for pool, carom, and snooker to be unified (theoretically speaking) under a single umbrella in the worldwide administration of cue sports. Many on the forum have, with valid reasons, questioned whether this is really necessary. To be fair, pool's landscape has grown to the point that it is much more difficult to oversee and administer it. Perhaps the role has become more than the worldwide organizations, which once had far less on their plates, can handle.

In the end, the two paths are to either work the current system as best as we can or to overhaul it and rebuild it from the ground up. While I'm, at least in theory, on board with either course of action, I've never read on AZB or elsewhere, a comprehensive proposal on how to replace/restructure it. As you say, greater transparency might enable us all to have a firmer grip on the missions and activities of all these organizations, but it seems unlikely that's coming anytime soon.

You're clearly on the right track here, JAM, for the time for review of and possible remodeling or overhaul of the organizations that oversee pool globally is now.

I feel like I understand the current structure better than most, but don't think it hasn't made my head spin on numerous occasions.

Take a deep bow for a well presented and well-judged post.
Click to expand...

Great summary Stu. Some sports have different governing bodies for professional and international (Olympic) competition. Perhaps something similar in pool would allow Matchroom (and the pro players) to have more freedom while reserving IOC hassles for World Games / Olympics.

Most American sports do this--basketball is a good example with FIBA and the NBA. NBA players only have to deal with FIBA nonsense if they want to play on the US national team.
 
sjm said:
That's a superb post, JAM, and it is very well timed!

While I'm generally inclined to conclude that many of the roles played by these organizations are ones that need to be played, at least by somebody, that shouldn't be interpreted as suggesting that I necessarily approve of the shape of pool's worldwide hierarchical structure.

In politics, and pool politics is no exception, fair or not, people tend to credit you for the good things that happened on your watch and blame you for the bad things that happened on your watch. In pool, we've had both the good and the bad.

On balance, I like a lot of what I've seen in world pool over the last 30 years, and government and IOC money, much of which can be traced to pursuit of the Olympic dream, has financed and perpetuated quite a bit of the game's impressive globalization. In the 1980's, the Asian contingent was new, and even by the 1990s, the only Asians participating significantly in international pool were Parica, Reyes and Bustamante. By 2000, Asian participation in the international tournament scene was very substantial and the Asians had become a dominating force in pro pool. In 1990, European pro pool, to most of us, meant just Ortmann and Souquet, but by 2005, Europe's presence in international play had grown substantially, and now it feels they are winning almost everything. We've seen growth in participation in pro pool all over the world, and if you told me twenty years ago that Spain would one day meet Singapore in the final of the World Cup of Pool I'd have laughed, but, as we know, it just happened. Pool is, at long last, being played at a very high level all over the world, and it has happened on the watch of the alphabet soup organizations that, admittedly, puzzle you and me equally.

All that said, however, we've been seeing the system go awry more and more, and as I and many others agree, hanging on to the Olympic dream, one that will surely not be fulfilled in my lifetime, may possibly be steering cue sports off course. We are both repulsed by the ban on Russian pros, a ban that wouldn't exist except for the fact that both WPA and BCA feel bound by the edict of WCBS, the cue sports arm of the IOC. We are confused when both event producers and pool's governing bodies take action against a player for the exact same offense. We are, similarly, baffled by the long delay that occurred in the adjudication of the Billy Thorpe case.

Shifting gears, one of the questions one might ask is whether there is a need for pool, carom, and snooker to be unified (theoretically speaking) under a single umbrella in the worldwide administration of cue sports. Many on the forum have, with valid reasons, questioned whether this is really necessary. To be fair, pool's landscape has grown to the point that it is much more difficult to oversee and administer it. Perhaps the role has become more than the worldwide organizations, which once had far less on their plates, can handle.

In the end, the two paths are to either work the current system as best as we can or to overhaul it and rebuild it from the ground up. While I'm, at least in theory, on board with either course of action, I've never read on AZB or elsewhere, a comprehensive proposal on how to replace/restructure it. As you say, greater transparency might enable us all to have a firmer grip on the missions and activities of all these organizations, but it seems unlikely that's coming anytime soon.

You're clearly on the right track here, JAM, for the time for review of and possible remodeling or overhaul of the organizations that oversee pool globally is now.

I feel like I understand the current structure better than most, but don't think it hasn't made my head spin on numerous occasions.

Take a deep bow for a well presented and well-judged post.
Click to expand...
Addressing this paragraph by Stu:

"Shifting gears, one of the questions one might ask is whether there is a need for pool, carom, and snooker to be unified (theoretically speaking) under a single umbrella in the worldwide administration of cue sports. Many on the forum have, with valid reasons, questioned whether this is really necessary. To be fair, pool's landscape has grown to the point that it is much more difficult to oversee and administer it. Perhaps the role has become more than the worldwide organizations, which once had far less on their plates, can handle."

Unfortunately, this is the doing of the IOC. They will only recognize one world body representing each sport. They won't acknowledge the different disciplines as separate sports. We had to settle for 'cue sports' as a whole. That's why the WCBS was formed, consisting of representatives of each of the disciplines. We had no choice.

Also, the reason to stay in the Olympic grid isn't as much as applying to be in the Olympics, although that's certainly a factor. It's because many of the countries who organize tournaments with the highest amounts of added prize money, receive that money by their government and through their countries' Olympic Committee, as opposed to sports in the U.S. where funds are raised mostly through outside sponsorships.

If you remove the pool world's affiliation with the IOC, many of the international high prize fund events will disappear.
 
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FranCrimi said:
... the reason to stay in the Olympic grid isn't as much as applying to be in the Olympics, although that's certainly a factor. It's because many of the countries who organize tournaments with the highest amounts of added prize money, receive that money by their government through their Olympic Committee, as opposed to sports in the U.S. where funds are raised mostly through outside sponsorships.

If you remove the pool world's affiliation with the IOC, many of the international high prize fund events will disappear.
Click to expand...
Thanks for an informative post, Fran. I think I implied much of this when I spoke of how this money has sparked pool's impressive globalization, but this paints a far clearer picture.
 
FranCrimi said:
Also, the reason to stay in the Olympic grid isn't as much as applying to be in the Olympics, although that's certainly a factor. It's because many of the countries who organize tournaments with the highest amounts of added prize money, receive that money by their government and through their countries' Olympic Committee, as opposed to sports in the U.S. where funds are raised mostly through outside sponsorships.
Click to expand...
I can understand the desire to have billiards in the Olympics, but after 40 or more years of talking about it, it doesn't seem to be any closer to ever happening. There are new Olympic sports now that didn't exist 30 years ago.

I understood that there was a hope that billiards would be in the Tokyo Olympics since Japan has a pretty strong billiards community, but even in a venue where billiards is popular, it didn't make the cut.

However, billiards is in the World Games, which is governed by the International World Games Association, under the patronage of the International Olympic Committee. It handles events that are prominent and popular, but not in the Olympics.

Even in the billiards community, there's little interest in the World Games. If there was more interest, maybe the Olympic Committee would take note.

But I suspect that that's the way things will stay - in the World Games, not in the Olympics. I'd put money on it.
 
sjm said:
Thanks for an informative post, Fran. I think I implied much of this when I spoke of how this money has sparked pool's impressive globalization, but this paints a far clearer picture.
Click to expand...
Yes. You are right on the money (pardon the pun) with your comments on this. A lot of people don't realize how significant the IOC connection is on a global scale. The only way to break away from the grid is for countries' billiard organizations to become independent to where government money is no longer needed, but I think that's impossible with certain countries where their governments control everything. In some countries, even where there are sponsored events --- the government will pick a company and inform them that they will be sponsoring a particular event, like it or not --- or else..... I imagine that same country's government can forbid a company from sponsoring an event as well. It's really brutal out there.
 
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kling&allen said:
JAM, did you see the cue it up interview with the WPA rep? He addresses some of these topics. From what I can tell, most of the money the WCBS and WPA collects goes to drug testing and paying "Olympic consultants" to pitch billiards to the IOC. The WPA board members are not paid. A few other tidbits:

(1) players have to give the WPA 5 percent of their winnings from every WPA sanctioned tournament. This doesn't even cover the WPA's WADA fees for mandatory drug testing.

(2) 2036 is the next year billiards has a shot at the Olympics.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. :)

I watched every single minute of it, but there were questions left unanswered. The WPA board members are not paid? Where is the money going, these "hundreds of thousands of dollars" donated to pool by country governments and industry members? Who's getting fat on this cheese? It is not the pool players. Something's rotten in Denmark.

I will probably be dead in 2036, and I'll betcha billiards still doesn't get in the Olympic Games then. 🤪
 
FranCrimi said:
If you remove the pool world's affiliation with the IOC, many of the international high prize fund events will disappear.
Click to expand...

Fran I did contact the "North American rep" and received a two-sentence reply.

I also researched tournaments that may have had hundreds of thousands of dollars donated by country governments and/or industry members, but I could not find any—well, any that I would deem as a "high-prize fund event." Do you know of any offhand? I'd be interested in learning more about this.
 
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JAM said:
Thanks for the reply. :)

I watched every single minute of it, but there were questions left unanswered. The WPA board members are not paid? Where is the money going, these "hundreds of thousands of dollars" donated to pool by country governments and industry members? Who's getting fat on this cheese? It is not the pool players. Something's rotten in Denmark.

I will probably be dead in 2036, and I'll betcha billiards still doesn't get in the Olympic Games then. 🤪
Click to expand...
My guess is it's just like everywhere else in this country.... medical testing labs. It's their main moneymaker.
 
This is considered good news though, right?


Also, I like how on the World Confederation's cover page there sits an Orange 5 Ball.... Silly matchroom lol
 
JAM said:
Fran I did contact the "North American rep" and received a two-sentence reply.

I also researched tournaments that may have had hundreds of thousands of dollars donated by country governments and/or industry members, but I could not find any—well, any that I would deem as a "high-prize fund event." Do you know of any offhand? I'd be interested in learning more about this.
Click to expand...
Start with the total prize fund amount and deduct the entry fee per player. The difference is added money. As to the source, unfortunately, the details of how much by whom isn't always public.

If you're not happy with the reply you got, then write back and let him know.
 
JAM said:
Thanks for the reply. :)

I watched every single minute of it, but there were questions left unanswered. The WPA board members are not paid? Where is the money going, these "hundreds of thousands of dollars" donated to pool by country governments and industry members? Who's getting fat on this cheese? It is not the pool players. Something's rotten in Denmark.

I will probably be dead in 2036, and I'll betcha billiards still doesn't get in the Olympic Games then. 🤪
Click to expand...

All good questions. Maybe you can get Shane at the WPA to come here and answer questions.

My bet is the money goes to bribing IOC officials and kickbacks to government leaders that support pool. I think that's where all the FIFA money goes at least.

I will be happy to make it to 2036 as well, but doubt we will even have the Olympics then.
 
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