WPA ?

kaznj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would like some help in understanding how the WPA works. PLEASE I am not asking for opinions. I dont understand their function.
Do they put on tournaments? Do they put up money for tournament? Do they just sanction tournaments, whatever that means.
My understanding is that the two most popular ranking systems are Fargo and WNT rankings. Does the WPA have any control over these ranking systems?
If the WPA was to fold up and go away, how would pool tournaments be adversely affected?
It appears to me that the two groups controling the tournaments and money are Matchroom and Predator. Why can’t they coexist. Sit down and make out an annual schedule.
Thanks for any explanation. Again please just post information that helps answer my questions. I am NOT interested in opinions.
 
I would like some help in understanding how the WPA works. PLEASE I am not asking for opinions. I dont understand their function.
Do they put on tournaments? Do they put up money for tournament? Do they just sanction tournaments, whatever that means.
My understanding is that the two most popular ranking systems are Fargo and WNT rankings. Does the WPA have any control over these ranking systems?
If the WPA was to fold up and go away, how would pool tournaments be adversely affected?
It appears to me that the two groups controling the tournaments and money are Matchroom and Predator. Why can’t they coexist. Sit down and make out an annual schedule.
Thanks for any explanation. Again please just post information that helps answer my questions. I am NOT interested in opinions.
Have you looked at the WPA website? I think that will be your best start.
 
Sometimes, WPA actions make me crazy, but let's not take their accomplishments lightly. Their efforts led to International Olympic Committee recognition of pool as a sport. which made a lot of money available to many national pool federations, which helped globalize our sport. The amazing growth stories written in places like Poland, Taiwan, Spain, Germany, and numerous other countries has globalized pool in a way that would have been very hard to imagine twenty-five years ago.

Among other roles it plays, WPA establishes rules, sets tournament participation criteria, forms partnerships with event producers to create new events, and tests for drugs. WPA is important, but the power plays they are making in men's pro pool compromises the income prospects of many pro players.
 
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Their efforts led to International Olympic Committee recognition of pool as a sport. which made a lot of money available to many national pool federations, which helped globalize our sport.
Did their efforts, or did the efforts of the WCBS?

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Did their efforts, or did the efforts of the WCBS?

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Only a minor distinction here. When it comes to pool, the two are basically the same, and they share the credit. WCBS covers pool, snooker, and carom sports and oversaw the efforts of gaining recognition of all three by the IOC in about 2001, making funds available to all three.. WPA acts in the name of WCBS on all matters pertaining pool and was surely the greater driving force for IOC recognition of pool, but WCBS unified the efforts of the three disciplines within cue sports toward IOC recognition and, therefore, figured prominently in the larger effort.
 
Let’s start with the bid to get pool into the Olympics. The IOC first says to be considered you need to be a sport with membership in Sport Accord (formerly GAISF). Sport Accord says you need to be a contest played internationally with a single top level governing body with an official set of rules. WPA is born. Sport Accord then said we are getting bugged by pool, snooker and carom. We consider cue sports to be a sport and those games to be separate disciplines of cuesports. So we only want to talk to one federation. So the federations for pool, carom and snooker formed the WCBS to be the single body representing cuesports. Sport Accord accepts the WCBS and pool is now an Olympic sport. But it’s not in the Olympics Games. The IOC originally capped the number of sports (probably to manage expenses). Then the IOC lifts the cap and tries out a handful of provisional sports at each set of games (probably to court youth markets). WCBS bids for cuesports and it never gets picked. But cuesports get included in the World Games as a consolation prize. So WPA is a voting member of WCBS. And each continental pool federation is a voting member of WPA. And each national federation is a voting member of their continental member. So it’s a tiered structure of ownership. And ultimately WPA lets each continental member have authority over their territory.

Now looking at the WPA, they provide pool an official connection to the IOC. They claim branding ownership of the terms “World Championship” for pool. They license the right to hold a world championship to third party promoters (like Matchroom or Predator) to host a world championship event. They do not run their own events as far as I know. They are not a promoter

WPA also sanctions regular competition around the world. Certain large events are required to be sanctioned. Sanctioning means paying a percent of the prize fund as a fee. That money funds WPA operations and funnels up to support WCBS Olympic campaigns. WPA sanctioning offers some degree of calendar protection from other sanctioned events.

Because the WPA provides a connection to the IOC, this secondary effect takes place. Some governments take pride in Olympic sports. They have government funds (at a country, province, or city level) available for sports programs. That can include the support of training centers, coaching programs, and player assistance. Some governments will add money to events hosted in their country/province/city. Players might get financial support for traveling to sanctioned events. They might get rewards for medaling in national, continental or major world competitions. This is more pronounced in countries like Germany, Austria, Poland, Netherlands and Greece. And some people claim the extent of that support might be exaggerated, but it’s not trivial.

This entire structure of pool has born two big things. One is a bunch of bureaucrats that are entrenched in that structure, gain personal clout via their positions of power, have incentives to preserve and defend the structure, and feel they personally know what’s “best” for the players and the sport. Two is that the degree of athleticism in the sport rises significantly. This is the backbone of why Europe has risen to dominate the Mosconi Cup.

And some countries like the US do not offer government funds for sports programs. Instead we have a non-profit organization USOPC that has rights to license Olympic broadcasts and trademarks in the US. Commercially that generates so much revenue that we get support for sports like gymnastics, swimming, etc. But the USOPC doesn’t recognize BCA because it only represents pool (weakly) and not all cuesports (carom and snooker too) in North America. So no special IOC-affiliated money for us.

Meanwhile Matchroom decided to stop sanctioning their events after having done so for quite some time. Why? Maybe they question the value. Maybe they are not trying to be “Olympic-affiliated” and just want to be “commercial” (like the NBA). Maybe they don’t like the bureaucracy of date protection. Maybe they don’t like WPA pushing their WADA-compliant requirements onto them. Maybe they just see the success of other “commercial” sports they manage without IOC involvement and just want to repeat those formulas. Maybe specifically Barry Hearn has his own personal history of complexities dealing with IOC organizations and is just bitter about those experiences.

But the WPA is a committee. Its decisions are the votes of the continental members. So what do they vote on? Well they look at Matchroom and they feel the “Olympic Authority” is the ultimate god-given authority over all international pool and not sanctioning is not a legal option. Matchroom looks at that and says “your authority is merely your own fiat authority, we don’t have to bend our knee and kiss your ring.” Could both co-exist? Yes. Could Matchroom just sanction their events with a favorable compromise and everything be better for the players? Yes. Will they? Doesn’t look like it. Does it matter? Right now, definitely. But if Matchroom grows the sport exponentially and makes millionaires of players, it won’t matter.

So again what does the WPA do from there? They vote. And members like the ACBS say “Matchroom is coming to Asia. They are hosting events. They are not sanctioning. They are convincing governments to host events and add money without IOC affiliation. They are profiting off the names of players we built up inside our system. They threaten our role and power. They must be stopped. Players choosing to do that in Asia must be banned”. The other continental members are less strict but also recognize that maybe there is a decision point. You’re in our structure or you’re out of it. If you’re out of it, you don’t get our benefits. We don’t mind Matchroom in our territories but we can’t speak for Asia. So we’ll stand with them in repercussions for those that play unsanctioned events in their territory.
 
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Let’s start with the bid to get pool into the Olympics. The IOC first says to be considered you need to be a sport with membership in Sport Accord (firmly GAISF). Sport Accord says you need to be a contest played internationally with a single top level governing body with an official set of rules. WPA is born. Sport Accord then said we are getting bugged by pool, snooker and carom. We consider cue sports to be a sport and those games to be separate disciplines of cuesports. So we only want to talk to one federation. So the federations for pool, carom and snooker formed the WCBS to be the single body representing cuesports. Sport Accord accepts the WCBS and pool is now an Olympic sport. But it’s not in the Olympics Games. The IOC originally called the number of sports (probably to manage expenses). Then the IOC lifts the cap and tries out a handful of provisional sports at each set of games (probably to court youth markets). WCBS bids for cuesports and it never gets picked. But cuesports get included in the World Games as a consolation prize. So WPA is a voting member of WCBS. And each continental pool federation is a voting member of WPA. And each national federation is a voting member of their continental member. So it’s a tiered structure of ownership. And ultimately WPA lets each continental member have authority over their territory.

Now looking at the WPA, they provide pool an official connection to the IOC. They claim branding ownership of the terms “World Championship” for pool. They license the right to hold a world championship to third party promoters (like Matchroom or Predator) to host a world championship event.

WPA also sanctions regular competition around the world. Certain large events are required to be sanctioned. Sanctioning means paying a percent of the prize fund as a fee. That money funds WPA operations and funnels up to support WCBS Olympic campaigns. WPA sanctioning offers some degree of calendar protection from other sanctioned events.

Because the WPA provides a connection to the IOC, this secondary effect takes place. Some governments take pride in Olympic sports. They have government funds (at a country, province, or city level) available for sports programs. That can include the support of training centers, coaching programs, and player assistance. Some governments will add money to events hosted in their country/province/city. Players might get financial support for traveling to sanctioned events. They might get rewards for medaling in national, continental or major world competitions. This is more pronounced in countries like Germany, Austria, Poland, Netherlands and Greece. And some people claim the extent of that support might be exaggerated, but it’s not trivial.

This entire structure of pool has born two big things. One is a bunch of bureaucrats that are entrenched in that structure, gain personal clout via their positions of power, have incentives to preserve and defend the structure, and feel they personally know what’s “best” for the players and the sport. Two is that the degree of athleticism in the sport rises significantly. This is the backbone of why Europe has risen to dominate the Mosconi Cup.

And some countries like the US do not offer government funds for sports programs. Instead we have a non-profit organization USOPC that has rights to license Olympic broadcasts and trademarks in the US. Commercially that generates so much revenue that we get support for sports like gymnastics, swimming, etc. But the USOPC doesn’t recognize BCA because it only represents pool (weakly) and not all cuesports (carom and snooker too) in North America. So no special IOC-affiliated money for us.

Meanwhile Matchroom decided to stop sanctioning their events after having done so for quite some time. Why? Maybe they question the value. Maybe they are not trying to be “Olympic-affiliated” and just want to be “commercial” (like the NBA). Maybe they don’t like the bureaucracy of date protection. Maybe they don’t like WPA pushing their WADA-compliant requirements onto them. Maybe they just see the success of other “commercial” sports they manage without IOC involvement and just want to repeat those formulas. Maybe specifically Barry Hearn has his own personal history of complexities dealing with IOC organizations and is just bitter about those experiences.

But the WPA is a committee. Its decisions are the votes of the continental members. So what do they vote on? Well they look at Matchroom and they feel the “Olympic Authority” is the ultimate god-given authority over all international pool and not sanctioning is not a legal option. Matchroom looks at that and says “your authority is merely your own fiat authority, we don’t have to bend our knee and kiss your ring.” Could both co-exist? Yes. Could Matchroom just sanction their events with a favorable compromise and everything be better for the players? Yes. Will they? Doesn’t look like it. Does it matter? Right now, definitely. But if Matchroom grows the sport exponentially and makes millionaires of players, it won’t matter.

So again what does the WPA do from there? They vote. And members like the ACBS say “Matchroom is coming to Asia. They are hosting events. They are not sanctioning. They are convincing governments to host events and add money without IOC affiliation. They are profiting off the names of players we built up inside our system. They threaten our role and power. They must be stopped. Players choosing to do that in Asia must be banned”. The other continental members are less strict but also recognize that maybe there is a decision point. You’re in our structure or you’re out of it. If you’re out of it, you don’t get our benefits. We don’t mind Matchroom in our territories but we can’t speak for Asia. So we’ll stand with them in repercussions for those that play unsanctioned events in their territory.

good summary. i don't think ACBS can claim they built up many of the asian players, as they haven't been around as the federation for pool that long. i think they were mainly into snooker and like blackball before they took over after APBU?
 
good summary. i don't think ACBS can claim they built up many of the asian players, as they haven't been around as the federation for pool that long. i think they were mainly into snooker and like blackball before they took over after APBU?

True. EPBF can make that claim much more for Europe. But ACBS likely sees themselves as taking over the “mantle of the IOC”. And they likely consider the value built by the APBU as their asset now.
 
.... And some countries like the US do not offer government funds for sports programs. Instead we have a non-profit organization USOPC that has rights to license Olympic broadcasts and trademarks in the US. Commercially that generates so much revenue that we get support for sports like gymnastics, swimming, etc. But the USOPC doesn’t recognize BCA because it only represents pool (weakly) and not all cuesports (carom and snooker too) in North America. So no special IOC-affiliated money for us. ...
My understanding of the problem in the US is a little different from that.

At one point, the BCA Board of Directors was strongly in favor of getting recognition from the USOC (now USOPC). They went as far as to move the BCA headquarters to Colorado Springs (home of the USOC) and to hire an Executive Director who I think had been involved in getting USOC recognition for another sport (pistol target shooting?). That was Steve Ducoff (at BCA 2000-2006).

A major issue for recognition is that the USOC required 30% of the board members of the organization to be current or past athletes. I think the BCA Board has never had more than a single player representative.

The Board had a change of direction, I believe due to new officers. They sold the BCA leagues to Mark Griffin, so they no longer had any player members. The ended the effort for recognition. They moved from Colorado Springs to Denver.

As far as carom and snooker, I think all the BCA would have needed to do was take on as affiliated members the USBA and the USSA.
 
True. EPBF can make that claim much more for Europe. But ACBS likely sees themselves as taking over the “mantle of the IOC”. And they likely consider the value built by the APBU as their asset now.

would be a difficult claim for APBU too, especially when it comes to the pinoy players where the talent growth is very organic. don't know about vietnam, taiwan and singapore.

but yes, very true for EPBF.
 
My understanding of the problem in the US is a little different from that.

At one point, the BCA Board of Directors was strongly in favor of getting recognition from the USOC (now USOPC). They went as far as to move the BCA headquarters to Colorado Springs (home of the USOC) and to hire an Executive Director who I think had been involved in getting USOC recognition for another sport (pistol target shooting?). That was Steve Ducoff (at BCA 2000-2006).

A major issue for recognition is that the USOC required 30% of the board members of the organization to be current or past athletes. I think the BCA Board has never had more than a single player representative.

The Board had a change of direction, I believe due to new officers. They sold the BCA leagues to Mark Griffin, so they no longer had any player members. The ended the effort for recognition. They moved from Colorado Springs to Denver.

As far as carom and snooker, I think all the BCA would have needed to do was take on as affiliated members the USBA and the USSA.
I appreciate the correction. I was misremembering from our exchange last year.

Ironically, it does feel like an obstacle that could be easily overcome if you consider the value opportunity it could pose. Even if it just means getting support to our not-Shane players trying to reach Shane levels.

 
would be a difficult claim for APBU too, especially when it comes to the pinoy players where the talent growth is very organic. don't know about vietnam, taiwan and singapore.

but yes, very true for EPBF.
True. And ultimately it seems preserving authority and structure is a bigger motivation in Asia when you consider how many Asian countries willingness to dump serious money on sports (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, China, etc). More of a factor of financial influence, political power, and prestige. But they will still think of the players and their control over opportunities like participation in the SEA Games as key point of leverage to push their agendas.
 
i may be in the minority here but i don't give a flying fk about pool being in the olympics. the O's have turned into one colossal butthurt woke circle jerk. haven't watched any in years. i guess having a gold medal might stroke some ego's but i wouldn't get out of the electric chair to watch it.
 
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i may be in the minority here but i don't a flying fk about pool being in the olympics. the O's have turned into one colossal butthurt woke circle jerk. haven't watch any in years. i guess having a gold medal might stroke some ego's but i wouldn't get out of the electric chair to watch it.
Honestly I’m with you on that. I like the argument that if the Olympic Games isn’t the pinnacle of achievement in your sport, it shouldn’t be in the Olympic Games. Consider how the World Games is ran with 1 carom table, 1 snooker table, and 2 pool tables each running a 16 player invitational in some back corner of an arena with zero production value. I doubt the Olympic Games would hold a candle to Matchroom’s World Championship in Saudi Arabia.

The only real merit to WPA at this point is the countries that offer semblances of government subsidization for sanctioned pool.
 
The WPA does have a card Matchroom can't play, it has government support.

Ministry of sports are common outside of the USA, they provides visas for players to travel.

Can Matchroom provide visas for players?
 
i may be in the minority here but i don't give a flying fk about pool being in the olympics. the O's have turned into one colossal butthurt woke circle jerk. haven't watched any in years. i guess having a gold medal might stroke some ego's but i wouldn't get out of the electric chair to watch it.
Few care about Olympic inclusion, but even if one assumes that pool will never be in the Olympics, obtaining IOC recognition in 2001 made very substantial amounts of money available to the national pool federations of the world, which stimulated growth in the sport for over 20 years.

There are five times as many elite players today as there were twenty-five years ago, and the level of competition today is breathtaking by comparison with any other period in the nine ball era.
 
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