WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
DTL,
I certanly can not answer for CJ & will not. I also do not even know what is the exact purpose of your question.
However due to the difficulty of expressing even the question, the following might aid in defining it better. I certainly do not know for sure.
Anyway, for what it's worth, When I shoot with outside 'parallel' english on a shot similiar to the one you described, my stick would be 'aiming' out into 'space' as would even a center cue ball hit. However, that is not my perception of the 'aiming'. My 'aiming' is the contact point & the visual of the overlapping portions of the pocket side of the cue ball with the portion of the OB that is away from the pocket side. The stick is 'parallel' or in back hand engish even angled away. The point is, how do you have to position your stick to cause that visual overlap that will result in the proper contact point being made upon actual contact.
I hope this makes some sense to you & is not confusing. There is a very good picture somewhere here on AZB. I will locate it & PM you with it to support my description.
I am just tryng to help.
Best Regards,
I certanly can not answer for CJ & will not. I also do not even know what is the exact purpose of your question.
However due to the difficulty of expressing even the question, the following might aid in defining it better. I certainly do not know for sure.
Anyway, for what it's worth, When I shoot with outside 'parallel' english on a shot similiar to the one you described, my stick would be 'aiming' out into 'space' as would even a center cue ball hit. However, that is not my perception of the 'aiming'. My 'aiming' is the contact point & the visual of the overlapping portions of the pocket side of the cue ball with the portion of the OB that is away from the pocket side. The stick is 'parallel' or in back hand engish even angled away. The point is, how do you have to position your stick to cause that visual overlap that will result in the proper contact point being made upon actual contact.
I hope this makes some sense to you & is not confusing. There is a very good picture somewhere here on AZB. I will locate it & PM you with it to support my description.
I am just tryng to help.
Best Regards,
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Glad to see you learned something else on here! That makes a grand total of what, 4 things now?
No, wait, that would only be one thing you have learned on here. Since the other three you learned from CJ you don't even understand.
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Mr. Naji,
Can you clarify for me why you say that the distance the OB is from the pocket makes that much of a difference to you? Naturally I understand that for a given cut angle, the farther away reduces the margin for error. But a ball close to a pocket with severe angle with distance from the CB can be just as challenging.
I'm just wondering because I think you've said that a few times & I wonder if you have a particular perception on it.
Best Regards,
DTL,
In my 3.5 hour venture into TOI the other day, I did not use CJ's aiming method. I used my own method which is just like the pic in the aiming section thread that I PM'd you (post #10 of Here's what's been working...). It worked fine. I was I bit worried by one of CJ's statements that made me wonder if he was adding cut by angleing the stick through center, but Mike said he was using 'parallel' alignment just a hair inside & that was working for him & it worked for me, as well.
I for one, can not change all that I have been doing for so long to playing exactly the way CJ plays in one seesion. I think we all will put our own finger print on what CJ is revealing to us. My aiming method, that I naturally gravitated to, has been working very very well for 46 yrs. I'm not going be quick to change that unless something pops up that is much better.
Again, I hope this helps some.
Best Regards,
Master Rick, I guess we agree on the distance between CB & OB, the distance between OB & pocket, read Dr. Dave's link below, if you have question let me know. Remeber throw becomes big factor with large distances.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-13.pdf
Mr. Naji,
Thanks for responding. I fully undersatand those principles even though I do want any of those figures in my mind while I'm playing. So I guess my question to you is actually, do you consider all of those facts & figures when you are playing a shot like that & if so, why & what adjustment(s) if any would you make given different distances the OB is away from the pocket?
Maybe the question is too general for you to really answer given all of the variables that can & do come into play.
Please, just call me Rick. I have not been called 'Master Richard' since my elementary grade school days.
Best Regards & Respectfully Yours,
Certainly, when the aim gab narrowed a lot, and throw becomes very sensitive, i pay lots of attention to it, at times you might have to aim outside of pocket.
Spin induced & collision induced throw at slow speed when the OB is of some distance from the pocket is what you mean. I understand.
Thanks again,
Add to that, with OB up table CB most likely close to OB, if it is say 1/2 a diamond away, you could easily light stun not knowing it, due to not enough distance for full CB rotation, or enough spin, bottom line trust your stroke and aim, if you miss adjust, repeat until there is no missing.
Also, with aim gap narrows, stroke become very sensitive, so what i do, i pay attention to how i pull cue back and forward..etc, at times i just pull an inch and follow through for soft shots that are up table.
We no longer "play the game," the "game plays through us," and all becomes the same
CJ Wiley said:I align my Touch of Inside to either the center or edge of the object ball. My aiming system is done ABOVE the ball, and the TOI is done while you're getting down and aiming AT the cue ball. The aiming we do above the shot is a way to connect the balls into an angle we're trying to create.CJ Wiley said:DTL said:With your aiming system you're connecting one of several spots (7, I think?) on the CB with either the center or one of the two edges of the OB depending on the thickness/thinness of the shot. And you do this while above the ball. I guess I would call this the SIGHT AIMING LINE that creates the angle you want.......and that angle is toward the undercut side of the pocket.
Then TOI aiming is done while down and at the CB. I would call the STICK AIMING LINE.
My question is this, these two lines aren't the same, right? When sizing up the shot, maybe a couple of practice strokes and then pulling the trigger which line are you looking down, the STICK AIMING LINE (TOI) or the SITE AIMING LINE?
Say you have a 1/4 ball hit or less (thin cut) to the left. Using your center/edge aiming system you'd have one of the spots towards the left edge of the CB lined up with the right edge of the OB and this would be the SITE AIMING LINE when above the ball. Now, for this type of thin cut (all thin cuts for that matter), if you were to draw a line through the center of the CB down through the center of the ghost ball that line is out into space (not connecting at all with the OB). So when you apply TOI while down on the shot the STICK AIMING LINE is still aiming out into space......in between the center of the ghost ball and the right edge of the OB.
You say above that your TOI is "aligned with the center or the edge of the object ball". Or do you mean that your SITE AIMING LINE is always aligned with the center or edge of the OB? If you say it's the TOI, then in my example above I would assume that your TOI (STICK AIMING LINE) would be aligned with the right edge of the OB...........so on the above example shot you'd have to shift or align your stick/body more to the left to get to that edge, right?.....and perhaps change feet position. And if you did that it seems that you'd hit it thick (fat) and under cut the ball even with the deflection one gets with the TOI.
This is a hard question to ask on paper.......hope it makes some sense. And maybe you can answer it somehow, lol.DTL said:
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I'm not concerned with my "stick aiming line," as you were asking earlier. I believe the cue TIP must be aligned to your eyes, and that's an important part of anyone's pre shot routine. Connecting the eyes to the tip is essential because when you're down on the shot your tip and eyes need to be in the same "relative" position. {This will take anyone some "trial and error" to figure out and do in their own, personal way.}
This is your quote from above:
"I mean it would be nice and simple if we could just visually line the shot up from above and then just fall down with TOI aimed at 1 of 3 spots on the OB (center or one of the 2 edges). But I just don't think it's that simple."
Yes, it can be that simple, however, there's a process to learning it that is difficult to explain in writing. I'm making a video on this subject that will clear many questions and show the specific shots and how they're lined up and made.
Also, how the "Touch of Inside" effects the angles and position play options. This will "open players eyes" to exactly how strong this technique actually is. I understand the concept "seeing is believing," and will make a dedicated effort to demonstate and describe this technique in a clear, concise manner.
I can tell by some of the recent questions that some are getting confused by trying to put the pieces together themselves. Those of you that are "figuring it out," will understand by now that there's tremendous value and opportunity in TOI, however, it's also a complex assortment of new information.
Until I get the visual information put together try this:
Put the object ball on the Head Spot and the cue ball on the Foot Spot. Aim the object ball straight into the rail as you get down on the cue ball. Aim in the middle of the cue ball, and then move your tip over slightly to the right (TOI for a Right Cut), but continue to be "aware" of the object ball's center. You may feel the "center" change slighly as you move your cue to the inside. You may get the visual sensation that the cue ball will no longer hit the object ball "straight on," but cut it slightly to the right.
Accelerate through the cue ball and cut the object ball slightly to the right (with the TOI to the right). Do the same thing, aiming at the center to center, then move your cue (parallel) further to the right and accelerate, cutting the object ball more to the right. You will experience that there's a connection to how much "Inside" you cue the ball to how much it "cuts" to the same direction. Cuing to right makes the OB go right, while cuing to the left makes the OB cut to the left.
This is the part you MUST experience for yourself. No one can do this for you as far as calibrating the angles you can create by moving your tip to the Inside of the Cue Ball. It's just a SLIGHT movement, and it will be the start of "connecting," instead of "aiming."
Most top pros would rather not try to describe how they aim, they just know there's a "connection" between creating their next angle (between the cue ball and object ball), their eyes, tip and where they're contacting the cue ball. This is much easier to do than to describe because it's a "perception," and everyone experiences it in their own unique way.
Experiment with this and I use the spot I"m aiming at on the cue ball to the center of the object ball. Some players like to use their ferrule, side of tip, or side of shaft, it all accomplishes the same if you use it to line up on the Inside of the Cue Ball.
Everyone's perception will vary and I'm confident that anyone can train theirselves to use the "Touch of Inside" with a three week commitment. This isn't something you can do 50% of the time, you either favor the Touch of Inside or you don't.
There's no "in between" to learning it, however, after you get the hang of it you can put your personal style to this as you do in every aspect of your game. I know, from experience that my game raises several levels committing to the TOI and the Game is so much more fun when I'm connected and not struggling.'The Game is the Teacher'
The player no longer "plays the game," the "game plays through the player," and each shot seems the same. CJ Wiley
Several good points about the TOI, CJ. Experimenting with the contact point on the cue ball was the key for me. I use just about a sixteenth of an inch and get good results. It feels like a center ball hit with a small cue ball deflection.
Using a stop shot, if I move my tip over on your drill without a parallel shift (like using back hand english), the object ball hits the short rail and comes back and hits the cue ball at about a half ball. Very little deflection and very solid.
If I move parallel, moving my entire stick over, I slightly cut the object ball and the cue ball deflects more to the side. The object ball no longer hits the cue ball coming off of the short rail.
Though I've never tried your drill, I realized after a few hours of practice with it that these subtle changes in alignment could be consistent methods to pocket balls and get position. I'm able to cheat the pocket with these small changes even on my 4" pockets. The estimation is done for me by my cueing alignment.
This is also a great tool for pocketing balls that are just off a few degrees from straight in. You don't have to slightly cut the ball or use spin. Neither one of those choices are easy because you are usually following or drawing the nearly straight in shots. Not much room for error especially with speed.
I aim the shot while standing with the idea of deflection/squirt on the cue ball. I get down and slightly cue over to the inside depending on the amount of deflection I need. That's much easier to figure than throwing the ball with spin. I did that for years and played good, but never could make it work consistently. Position play was tougher, also. Getting where I need to go and floating into position is taking time to learn, but it's working!
Best,
Mike
Using a stop shot, if I move my tip over on your drill without a parallel shift (like using back hand english), the object ball hits the short rail and comes back and hits the cue ball at about a half ball. Very little deflection and very solid.
If I move parallel, moving my entire stick over, I slightly cut the object ball and the cue ball deflects more to the side. The object ball no longer hits the cue ball coming off of the short rail.
Though I've never tried your drill, I realized after a few hours of practice with it that these subtle changes in alignment could be consistent methods to pocket balls and get position. I'm able to cheat the pocket with these small changes even on my 4" pockets. The estimation is done for me by my cueing alignment.
This is also a great tool for pocketing balls that are just off a few degrees from straight in. You don't have to slightly cut the ball or use spin. Neither one of those choices are easy because you are usually following or drawing the nearly straight in shots. Not much room for error especially with speed.
I aim the shot while standing with the idea of deflection/squirt on the cue ball. I get down and slightly cue over to the inside depending on the amount of deflection I need. That's much easier to figure than throwing the ball with spin. I did that for years and played good, but never could make it work consistently. Position play was tougher, also. Getting where I need to go and floating into position is taking time to learn, but it's working!
Best,
Mike
Hi Mike,
It's always good to hear what you have to say. Informative & helpful. I totally agree about the near straight in shots. I even made one in my 1st. full 3.5 hour session w/ TOI where I aimed left to deflect right & cut the OB left.
I had trouble with position as well but I think it was me making sure to deflect the CB & not have a double cross. I think in my next 'practice' session I'm going to find out just how 'softly' I can hit & still get enough deflection.
Focusing on deflection instead of swerve & spin is a complete reversal for me, I got it, but now It's a mattter of fine tuning it for position purposes. I'll get that too, hopefully in my next seesion, as I start a money league next Thursday.
Best Regards & Have a Good Weekend,
It's always good to hear what you have to say. Informative & helpful. I totally agree about the near straight in shots. I even made one in my 1st. full 3.5 hour session w/ TOI where I aimed left to deflect right & cut the OB left.
I had trouble with position as well but I think it was me making sure to deflect the CB & not have a double cross. I think in my next 'practice' session I'm going to find out just how 'softly' I can hit & still get enough deflection.
Focusing on deflection instead of swerve & spin is a complete reversal for me, I got it, but now It's a mattter of fine tuning it for position purposes. I'll get that too, hopefully in my next seesion, as I start a money league next Thursday.
Best Regards & Have a Good Weekend,
Thanks for the post Mike. Cleared up what CJ was saying in the post above.
I have my own table so its pretty easy to read a post and then practice the content.
I made the shot on the first try. But my approach is a little different. Since working with TOI I have focused on using the center axis of the cue ball on as many shots as I can. Sometimes you have to use spin. I'm trying to get away from spin.
What I do is line up the shot QB center to OB center in the standing position. I then come down on trhe shot stroking the cue back and forth, center to center. In this case I wanted to use left TOI. On the shot stroke I make sure that I am (here is where it gets different) favoring the left side of the QB just a hair. I dont like taking my eyes off of the OB contact point. Sometimes I look at the QB once and then there are times I will look at it twice, but never any more than that.
I have tried to estimate 1/16" (or a Hair) on the QB but I get so hung up on the QB that I lose focus on the OB.......jeez :frown:
I am really looking forward to CJ posting his video on this subject.
I'm having fun just reading and learning. :smile:
John
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Hi John,
My approach is a little different, maybe because I've 'always' shot with english.
I see & visually & perceptionally connect the contact point of the OB to the contact point I want on the CB. This 'creates' a line with equal & opposite portions of the two(2) balls on each side of that line. I come down & set up on the CB with my cue stick on the side of the CB that I want to contact. I might make some minute adjustments if I perceive something is not quite right, a wiggle of a foot, a twist of a hip, etc. & then I shoot.
Here's my point, I'm not making a bunch of practice strokes, neither standing or once down on the ball, maybe some slight ones once down, but they are just to get settled in & to gauge the tip to the cue ball. I look back & forth along the line, between the two(2) contact points of the two(2) balls, not the stick line. The stick is more of a periphreal 'parallel' alignment. Another good thing about the TOI is that the stick is closer to the contact point line than when shooting with more 'normal' english & is therefore a bit of better aid in alignment/aiming. My last look for almost all 'normal' shots is the contact point on the OB. For some 'special' shots I may look at the tip contact point on the OB last, but rarely.
I hope this helps you or at least gives you some food for thought. Oh yeah, keep in mind, failure to consistently hit center OB is one of the biggest reasons for going to the TOI, or in my case, with english for 46 years.:wink:
Best Regards,
My approach is a little different, maybe because I've 'always' shot with english.
I see & visually & perceptionally connect the contact point of the OB to the contact point I want on the CB. This 'creates' a line with equal & opposite portions of the two(2) balls on each side of that line. I come down & set up on the CB with my cue stick on the side of the CB that I want to contact. I might make some minute adjustments if I perceive something is not quite right, a wiggle of a foot, a twist of a hip, etc. & then I shoot.
Here's my point, I'm not making a bunch of practice strokes, neither standing or once down on the ball, maybe some slight ones once down, but they are just to get settled in & to gauge the tip to the cue ball. I look back & forth along the line, between the two(2) contact points of the two(2) balls, not the stick line. The stick is more of a periphreal 'parallel' alignment. Another good thing about the TOI is that the stick is closer to the contact point line than when shooting with more 'normal' english & is therefore a bit of better aid in alignment/aiming. My last look for almost all 'normal' shots is the contact point on the OB. For some 'special' shots I may look at the tip contact point on the OB last, but rarely.
I hope this helps you or at least gives you some food for thought. Oh yeah, keep in mind, failure to consistently hit center OB is one of the biggest reasons for going to the TOI, or in my case, with english for 46 years.:wink:
Best Regards,
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Bruce,
This thought just hit me. Are you really a 'hustler' & just setting us all up for a cross country road trip.:wink:
Best Regards,
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That made me chuckle, thanks.
Not a very sound business plan. It'd be fun while it lasted, which wouldn't be very long. Like, first night