John,
I think that's called English!:ignore: No, sorry, it's called spin. I might have done it that way in my younger days but not now. High inside would work well enough for me now.
Regards,
WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
John,
I think that's called English!:ignore: No, sorry, it's called spin. I might have done it that way in my younger days but not now. High inside would work well enough for me now.
Regards,
I respectably dis agree about the age limitation, if you need any muscles to do the shot you are doing it wrong, just like Cory did, when his shot demanded speed, he lengthened his bridge and followed through until his bridge hand reached the joint, good example of follow through..
Banks
Banned
Not everybody gets old the same way.
Mr. Naji,
I was trying to imply that I use more brain 'muscle' now. I take the easier route to execute. But... when there is only one road to the destination, one has to go down that road if they want to get where they want to go.
Best regards,
Bad example of cause and effect. He got the action he got by hitting the cue ball very low and very hard. The follow through is a side effect of hitting hard; it doesn't do anything itself.
pj
chgo
three different techniques for the wrist to assist the pocket billiards stroke
There appear to be three different techniques for the wrist to assist the pocket billiards stroke. The first one is the wrists don't do much at all, the second is they cock up as you hit the cue ball and finish the stroke and the other is the wrists uncock down as the cue ball is struck and the follow through is completed.
The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball. I have been committed to this technique the last couple of days and it's amazing the results. The thing about my technique is I can pre cock my wrists very precisely and that was how I consistently produce powerful stoke shots with such accuracy. This, ironically is what I've been struggling with the most. I seemed to have lost my "power source" that effortlessly produced pin point accuracy when striking the cue ball.
Many of you will not benefit from this information (because the way you use your wrists work fine for you), and others will benefit immensely when you're still searching to improve your stroke and accuracy.
I personally found a missing part to my "personal puzzle" and I'm surprised I didn't "real eyes" how important this technique was for me. Sometimes the simplest answers complete the most complex problems {for myself}.
For some reason my "reasonable" mind says "use outside english", however a "Touch of Inside" produces best results, and my mind says "don't use the wrists", however uncocking my wrists like I'm using a hammer is most effective, and my mind says "root against my opponent" when pulling for my opponent works best. The key to life seems to be making myself do {at times} what I least "naturally" want to do. As I get "more experienced" I see that unfolding in many areas.
The Moral of the story? "Reasonable" thoughts and techniques can often be the wrong thoughts and techniques to reach the highest levels. To separate yourself you must be "Unreasonable" at times. 'The Game is the Teacher'
There appear to be three different techniques for the wrist to assist the pocket billiards stroke. The first one is the wrists don't do much at all, the second is they cock up as you hit the cue ball and finish the stroke and the other is the wrists uncock down as the cue ball is struck and the follow through is completed.
The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball. I have been committed to this technique the last couple of days and it's amazing the results. The thing about my technique is I can pre cock my wrists very precisely and that was how I consistently produce powerful stoke shots with such accuracy. This, ironically is what I've been struggling with the most. I seemed to have lost my "power source" that effortlessly produced pin point accuracy when striking the cue ball.
Many of you will not benefit from this information (because the way you use your wrists work fine for you), and others will benefit immensely when you're still searching to improve your stroke and accuracy.
I personally found a missing part to my "personal puzzle" and I'm surprised I didn't "real eyes" how important this technique was for me. Sometimes the simplest answers complete the most complex problems {for myself}.
For some reason my "reasonable" mind says "use outside english", however a "Touch of Inside" produces best results, and my mind says "don't use the wrists", however uncocking my wrists like I'm using a hammer is most effective, and my mind says "root against my opponent" when pulling for my opponent works best. The key to life seems to be making myself do {at times} what I least "naturally" want to do. As I get "more experienced" I see that unfolding in many areas.
The Moral of the story? "Reasonable" thoughts and techniques can often be the wrong thoughts and techniques to reach the highest levels. To separate yourself you must be "Unreasonable" at times. 'The Game is the Teacher'
My point , if you hold cue butt lightly the only thing you need to do is let the momentum of arm or arm + shoulder down , you must follow through to generate speed needed the longer the follow through the faster the speed of cue, and agree 100% if tip contact point hit wrong place forget it about the draw or follow.
Now if you holding butt tight, then your will introduce arm muscles of which old people might not be able to do
I don't expect CJ (or any pool player) to know the correct anatomical names of muscles or wrist movements. But I do expect any respectable pool instructor, especially one with fanboys hanging on his every word, to make basic sense when talking about how wrists move and how those movements work (or don't) in a pool stroke. That's what I see lacking here.
These arm and wrist movements are simple and can be visualized and understood by just about anybody. They're not "secrets" that have to be practiced at length before you can "get" them.
pj
chgo
P.S. I'm not talking here about "cocking" the wrist forward - that can truly prevent unwanted side-to-side wrist movement (at the expense of some speed and fine control, I think). I'm talking here about the "hammer" move (forcefully uncocking at the end of the stroke) that supposedly adds power and precision to the stroke - I don't buy that.
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The stroke works when you push through the cue ball. I've tried to do it by pulling the cue with a traditional stroke and the control is just not there. The cue ball moves differently after contact with the object ball and the amount of squirt varies too much to be as consistent.
Say what you will, pick apart his non technical posts, but from a mental aspect he has given up a lot of how the game is played. I listen to his descriptions and understand they are not cookie cutter ready for everybody's consumption. They are what he does and feels to get to the top level of the game. It goes without being said that he is not like each and every one of us. Maybe only a handfull will benefit from his teachings. But to deny there is no substance to his information because of incorrect anatomical descriptions is not moving in the right direction.
Sean, and more recently DTL, have made a terrific effort at trying to bridge that gap and actually contribute to the research. We need to move more into the kinesiological descriptions like other sports do to further our knowledge. We're long past the physics arguments and should be thinking about stroke mechanics. Instead of throwing up our hands and calling the people who are trying to understand what CJ is saying, nut huggers and gullible simpletons, why don't we actually give it a chance? CJ has been giving a ton of different examples that make no sense to some, but strike a chord with others. With an open mind a connection may be made with all of us.
I've tried all the suggestions and may use some, none, or all of them. They are subtle and seem to be simplistic when you hear them. Rehashed, reused, recycled, redone, repackaged, reheated...old news. :boring2: But when I put out an effort to see what he was talking about instead of looking down from up high, I found interesting things starting to happen. Things not able to be seen without the practical application of his techniques. And it didn't cost me a dime.
If it doesn't work for you because you're too smart and know how to swim without jumping into the water, I say, who is really misleading others in these threads? CJ, who is actively participating and communicating about a physical method to improve one's game, or the guy that sits back and tells everyone it's BS because they just know so or couldn't get it to work?
The triceps and biceps split duty on this push stroke. The shoulder complex and pecs get involved, too. This locking of the wrist engages all the muscles and connects the foream to the hand without unwanted sideway movements. I push forward rather than pull the cue. I break my wrist and allow my fingers to propel the cue forward sharply.
Now that I'm becoming familiar with this stroke, I realize there are many pros who push the cue stick, rather than pull the cue through. Dallas West pulls the cue, Efren pushes it. Earl is about 50/50 since he came back from the PI. SVB went there, too and now pushes most of his shots. I pulled, now I push. I ran a 4 pack and then a 3 pack last night on a tight 9 footer. A pro friend is trying out the same stroke and ran a 5 pack playing 8 ball. Individual results, but you decide what's right for you. I've made my decision.
Best,
Mike
Say what you will, pick apart his non technical posts, but from a mental aspect he has given up a lot of how the game is played. I listen to his descriptions and understand they are not cookie cutter ready for everybody's consumption. They are what he does and feels to get to the top level of the game. It goes without being said that he is not like each and every one of us. Maybe only a handfull will benefit from his teachings. But to deny there is no substance to his information because of incorrect anatomical descriptions is not moving in the right direction.
Sean, and more recently DTL, have made a terrific effort at trying to bridge that gap and actually contribute to the research. We need to move more into the kinesiological descriptions like other sports do to further our knowledge. We're long past the physics arguments and should be thinking about stroke mechanics. Instead of throwing up our hands and calling the people who are trying to understand what CJ is saying, nut huggers and gullible simpletons, why don't we actually give it a chance? CJ has been giving a ton of different examples that make no sense to some, but strike a chord with others. With an open mind a connection may be made with all of us.
I've tried all the suggestions and may use some, none, or all of them. They are subtle and seem to be simplistic when you hear them. Rehashed, reused, recycled, redone, repackaged, reheated...old news. :boring2: But when I put out an effort to see what he was talking about instead of looking down from up high, I found interesting things starting to happen. Things not able to be seen without the practical application of his techniques. And it didn't cost me a dime.
If it doesn't work for you because you're too smart and know how to swim without jumping into the water, I say, who is really misleading others in these threads? CJ, who is actively participating and communicating about a physical method to improve one's game, or the guy that sits back and tells everyone it's BS because they just know so or couldn't get it to work?
The triceps and biceps split duty on this push stroke. The shoulder complex and pecs get involved, too. This locking of the wrist engages all the muscles and connects the foream to the hand without unwanted sideway movements. I push forward rather than pull the cue. I break my wrist and allow my fingers to propel the cue forward sharply.
Now that I'm becoming familiar with this stroke, I realize there are many pros who push the cue stick, rather than pull the cue through. Dallas West pulls the cue, Efren pushes it. Earl is about 50/50 since he came back from the PI. SVB went there, too and now pushes most of his shots. I pulled, now I push. I ran a 4 pack and then a 3 pack last night on a tight 9 footer. A pro friend is trying out the same stroke and ran a 5 pack playing 8 ball. Individual results, but you decide what's right for you. I've made my decision.
Best,
Mike
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Nice post Mike, the paragragh in bold is what I am experiencing.
Like I have said before to keep it simple is that the thumb and index finger are the steering wheel, the other 2 or 3 fingers are the engine that propels the stick forward.
John
The important thing is you've removed the wrist motion "outside the line"
Yes, everyone holds thing differently. The important thing is you've removed the wrist motion "outside the line" so it makes a slot that allows the cue to extend in a straight line.
Extending the cue down the "Line of the Shot" gives you the feeling of "can't do it wrong". And the "side effect" is you will hit the cue ball straight EVERY time. The foundation of the game is hitting the cue ball straight, so that should be your first "order of business".
The more advanced techniques will be learned quickly as long as you are fundamentally sound in hitting the cue ball straight....EVERY TIME.
Yes, everyone holds thing differently. The important thing is you've removed the wrist motion "outside the line" so it makes a slot that allows the cue to extend in a straight line.
Extending the cue down the "Line of the Shot" gives you the feeling of "can't do it wrong". And the "side effect" is you will hit the cue ball straight EVERY time. The foundation of the game is hitting the cue ball straight, so that should be your first "order of business".
The more advanced techniques will be learned quickly as long as you are fundamentally sound in hitting the cue ball straight....EVERY TIME.
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How quickly we forget the basic idea is to shoot straight. We learn all the advanced strokes, spins and different ways to make the cue ball move around the table and lose track of the basics. Simply put and a word to the wise.
Best,
Mike
ill be the person you can bash:grin:
or the person who says the king has no clothes
cj was a great palyer
like most players they really dont know what they do
his idiosynchracies(sp) worked for him
now he wants to retrospectfully explain why
we all can agree i think that his explanations dont "jive" all the time with conventional wisdom
alot of people in conventional wisdom cant be all wrong
i dont beleive cj is the one trying to tell us the world is round and we are all wromg
what he says may work for him and may help some others
but "regular" folks should stick to "conventional " wisdom
jmho
icbw
im ready for whatever is coming my way:grin:
or the person who says the king has no clothes
cj was a great palyer
like most players they really dont know what they do
his idiosynchracies(sp) worked for him
now he wants to retrospectfully explain why
we all can agree i think that his explanations dont "jive" all the time with conventional wisdom
alot of people in conventional wisdom cant be all wrong
i dont beleive cj is the one trying to tell us the world is round and we are all wromg
what he says may work for him and may help some others
but "regular" folks should stick to "conventional " wisdom
jmho
icbw
im ready for whatever is coming my way:grin:
Yeah I know CJ I was just trying to keep it simple. Since using your grip and stance advise my cue is delivered straight. I have been using it for about 3 or 4 weeks, just waiting for it to become automatic or maybe letting it become automatic is better wording. I need to get out of the way and let it happen.
Some folks are having a hard time with the hammer stroke.
I cant speak for others and never would but your advise has helped alot.
Thanks for sharing.
John
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