WTF! 27oz break cue!

[TheNewSharkster]

Here is the APA Ruling-


33. EQUIPMENT
In general, any piece of equipment designed specifically for pocket billiards,
with the exception of jump cues and laser devices, is acceptable in APA
League play. Special equipment, such as bridges and cue extenders, are legal.
Jump shots are legal, when executed properly (see JUMP SHOTS described
in Definitions), but such shots must be attempted using your regular game
cue. Those cues especially designed for jump shots MAY NOT be used in
competition. Players are not allowed to break their cues down to attempt
jump shots.
*Any piece of equipment not covered by this rule and in question will be ruled
upon by APA. Cues with moveable parts will generally NOT be allowed.

 

[Flex]

Here is the APA Ruling-


33. EQUIPMENT
In general, any piece of equipment designed specifically for pocket billiards,
with the exception of jump cues and laser devices, is acceptable in APA
League play. Special equipment, such as bridges and cue extenders, are legal.
Jump shots are legal, when executed properly (see JUMP SHOTS described
in Definitions), but such shots must be attempted using your regular game
cue. Those cues especially designed for jump shots MAY NOT be used in
competition. Players are not allowed to break their cues down to attempt
jump shots.
*Any piece of equipment not covered by this rule and in question will be ruled
upon by APA. Cues with moveable parts will generally NOT be allowed.

There clearly are no weight restrictions listed in this rule... so, 27 ounces, or 35 ounces or whatever should be fine, so long as they'll let you have a break cue.

Flex

 

[TheNewSharkster]

There clearly are no weight restrictions listed in this rule... so, 27 ounces, or 35 ounces or whatever should be fine, so long as they'll let you have a break cue.

Flex

Funny thing about the equipment rules is it says Jump shots are legal but you can't use a jump stick.

 

[Flex]

Funny thing about the equipment rules is it says Jump shots are legal but you can't use a jump stick.

Yes, that's right. As for jumping with a "regular" cue, if I were to compete in the APA, given that rule, I'd spend some time playing with a very light cue with a phenolic tip.

Just the other day I ordered a 15 ounce sneaky pete to use for breaking; I'll be putting on a White Diamond tip and see how it works...

It might just be satisfactory for certain kinds of jumps.

I don't care for the APA, and wouldn't want to join it. Too much sandbagging and mickey mouse rules like the one disallowing jump cues, also defensive shots are a no-no. Not for me.


Flex

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Yes, that's right. As for jumping with a "regular" cue, if I were to compete in the APA, given that rule, I'd spend some time playing with a very light cue with a phenolic tip.

Just the other day I ordered a 15 ounce sneaky pete to use for breaking; I'll be putting on a White Diamond tip and see how it works...

It might just be satisfactory for certain kinds of jumps.

I don't care for the APA, and wouldn't want to join it. Too much sandbagging and mickey mouse rules like the one disallowing jump cues, also defensive shots are a no-no. Not for me.


Flex

Yup, I actually got fed up with APA and took several years off. The problem is I enjoy having a non traveling league and the people in it. So now I am back but I still get frustrated with some of the crappy handicaps and rules (slop counts? WTF). At least there is still the opertunity to compete at the national level.

I don't know what you mean by "defensive shots are no-no". They are fairly common even with some of the lower ranked players and totally legal. The only thing that sucks about defense in APA is if you drop the ball you need to keep shooting.

 

[Scott Lee]

You're incorrect here. Long, accurate drives are about club head speed and perfect timing...just like pool. Tiger Woods can drive farther than he used to, because he changed/upgraded his swing & timing...not because he has gained significantly more muscle. The ability to move the cuestick in a straight line, using cue weight and timing, is what produces a repeatable stroke...and that's a necessary ingredient for a good break.

Last weekend at the SBE many folks were trying out the new Stealth 13 oz. break cue. Lighter cue = faster swings. We had several people breaking at 23-25 mph, using this cue (and crushing the rack). The fastest I saw was 27, but they were not as accurate (swing was too wild). BTW, this cue was developed for APA players, because you can break efficiently with it, AND jump with a full-sized cue (APA rules).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Actually it is a combination of both. Why do you think golfer do a lot of weight lifting? Yes, some golfers can hit 300 yards when they are 13, and most of the power they generate is based on a proper swing but to go any longer it will take more muscle.

 

[Flex]

Yup, I actually got fed up with APA and took several years off. The problem is I enjoy having a non traveling league and the people in it. So now I am back but I still get frustrated with some of the crappy handicaps and rules (slop counts? WTF). At least there is still the opertunity to compete at the national level.

I don't know what you mean by "defensive shots are no-no". They are fairly common even with some of the lower ranked players and totally legal. The only thing that sucks about defense in APA is if you drop the ball you need to keep shooting.

It's not that they're illegal; it's that they will be used against you in the ratings.

Some time ago, I was playing a fellow some 8 ball, and shot a pretty decent defensive shot that involved shooting the cue ball with enough force follow into an object ball that the object ball went 3 rails and landed on the short rail, while the cue ball ended up on the other short rail. He then said "you're not supposed to be able to shoot that shot; that's an advanced shot. If someone sees you doing that in a game, they may raise your handicap (or something along that line).

Well, hello, mister, but I came to play pool, not shoot a 1% shot that will sellout the game...

That was the beginning of my understanding what a crock that sort of thinking (don't show your speed in the APA, etc) is.

Let those who like the APA go for it. As for me, I much prefer doing my best, always.

Flex

 

[TheNewSharkster]

You're incorrect here. Long, accurate drives are about club head speed and perfect timing...just like pool. Tiger Woods can drive farther than he used to, because he changed/upgraded his swing & timing...not because he has gained significantly more muscle. The ability to move the cuestick in a straight line, using cue weight and timing, is what produces a repeatable stroke...and that's a necessary ingredient for a good break.

Last weekend at the SBE many folks were trying out the new Stealth 13 oz. break cue. Lighter cue = faster swings. We had several people breaking at 23-25 mph, using this cue (and crushing the rack). The fastest I saw was 27, but they were not as accurate (swing was too wild). BTW, this cue was developed for APA players, because you can break efficiently with it, AND jump with a full-sized cue (APA rules).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thats interesting they have that light of a break cue. I would like to try it out.

Now I am no physics major but wouldn't the strength of the person swinging a cue stick translate into amount of speed generated. Furthermore wouldn't a stronger person be able to transfer more energy to the cue stick hitting the cue? In other words it should be a little easier to generate speed (not accuracy) the stronger you are.

I honestly believe it is both strength and stroke. Having more muscle should generate more power and club speed (or stick speed in this case).

Again, I am not expert on this. Just trying to have a good conversation

 

[TheNewSharkster]

It's not that they're illegal; it's that they will be used against you in the ratings.

Some time ago, I was playing a fellow some 8 ball, and shot a pretty decent defensive shot that involved shooting the cue ball with enough force follow into an object ball that the object ball went 3 rails and landed on the short rail, while the cue ball ended up on the other short rail. He then said "you're not supposed to be able to shoot that shot; that's an advanced shot. If someone sees you doing that in a game, they may raise your handicap (or something along that line).

Well, hello, mister, but I came to play pool, not shoot a 1% shot that will sellout the game...

That was the beginning of my understanding what a crock that sort of thinking (don't show your speed in the APA, etc) is.

Let those who like the APA go for it. As for me, I much prefer doing my best, always.

Flex

Thats pretty lame someone would give you a hard time about a well played safety shot. I am not a advocate of APA but in the league I play in I believe you would be given props for playing that shot.

As far as your handicap going up based on a safety shot, on the scoresheet you are supposed to mark every safety played. As I understand it when all the innings are tallied they will subtract one inning for every safety played. For example, if you play a safety and have a 3 inning game when the computer calculates your rank it would look at the game as being 2 innings. So the guy who said that wasn't completely off the mark. The thing is you could play a really bad safety shot but it still would be marked as a safety so it shouldn't matter how advanced it is.

 

[Flex]

Thats pretty lame someone would give you a hard time about a well played safety shot. I am not a advocate of APA but in the league I play in I believe you would be given props for playing that shot.

As far as your handicap going up based on a safety shot, on the scoresheet you are supposed to mark every safety played. As I understand it when all the innings are tallied they will subtract one inning for every safety played. For example, if you play a safety and have a 3 inning game when the computer calculates your rank it would look at the game as being 2 innings. So the guy who said that wasn't completely off the mark. The thing is you could play a really bad safety shot but it still would be marked as a safety so it shouldn't matter how advanced it is.

I know one guy who intentionally runs up the innings when he's playing, just to keep his handicap low. Give me a break...

Flex

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I know one guy who intentionally runs up the innings when he's playing, just to keep his handicap low. Give me a break...

Flex

Yup, all sandbaggers should die.

 

[DelaWho???]

I know one guy who intentionally runs up the innings when he's playing, just to keep his handicap low. Give me a break...

Flex

i'll agree with you here whole heartedly. I ignore them, and as a team captain, I tell my player to play their best win or lose, and I'll worry about the handicaps. I don't want someone on my team who feels they need to game the system to win. If a guy is trying to run up innings against me, I try all that much harder to run out on his ass and make it a 1 inning game. I don't care what my handicap is so I can play without concern of it moving up or down.

They say that 69% of men are SL4 (which is supposed to be average) and there is a wide variation of skill in that handicap. I might benefit from a slop shot once or twice a match, but in general I hit what I am shooting at. I'll also tell you when I slopped one in, I'd rather be good and consistent than lucky.

It's the only league around, and I like to compete so it'll do for now

Banger

 

[Fatboy]

SVB does it right he breaks with his playing cue, i do to 90% of the time, the only time I dont is when I have a new tip on, I like to get the feel of the tip before I start hammering it, once I get used to the tip I start breaking with it and then I'll have it reshaped and put away the break cue.

 

[RRfireblade]

You're incorrect here. Long, accurate drives are about club head speed and perfect timing...just like pool. Tiger Woods can drive farther than he used to, because he changed/upgraded his swing & timing...not because he has gained significantly more muscle. The ability to move the cuestick in a straight line, using cue weight and timing, is what produces a repeatable stroke...and that's a necessary ingredient for a good break.

Strength is a HUGE factor in club head speed. It may not be apparent body builder type muscles but strength in the correct muscles such as the lower body and torso. The long drivers of the world are 'usually' exceptionally strong in these areas and/or have exceptional leverage (height/size).


FWIW , Tiger is a beast in person , 6' 1" and he's probably 190-195 now and absolutely ripped. At least he was last week when I walked with him at Bay Hill.

A strong break , IMO , is less impacted by pure muscle strenth and more by the type of muscle ie Type II aka fast twitch , being such a shorter motion than a golf swing.

Timing and form corrolate more with accuracy , precision and consistancy which of course , completes the package.

 

[BRKNRUN]

It is all about the happy medium...Not too heavy...Not too light.

Look no further than bowling for the example of the happy medium...You can chuck a 10lb bowling ball down the lane and get no pin action...but use a 16lbs at a slower speed than you can chuck the 10lbs ball and get all kinds of pin action....On the other end of the spectrum...try and use a 21lb ball and not only will your arm be dead by the end of the first game, but your controle will suffer and you won't be able to generate enough speed to get the same action as you would with a 16lbs ball.

That all being said...I prefer my break cue to be .5oz lighter than my playing cue....Only for the reason that after I break, when I pick up my playing cue...I can feel that just a bit more weight and it (for me anyway) seems to help with getting that fluid feeling in the stoke and letting the weight of the cue create the momentum....so to speak...

For whatever reason...If I go from a heavy cue to a lighter cue....I lose the feeling of the weight of the cue on my grip hand.

 

[Flex]

i'll agree with you here whole heartedly. I ignore them, and as a team captain, I tell my player to play their best win or lose, and I'll worry about the handicaps. I don't want someone on my team who feels they need to game the system to win. If a guy is trying to run up innings against me, I try all that much harder to run out on his ass and make it a 1 inning game. I don't care what my handicap is so I can play without concern of it moving up or down.

They say that 69% of men are SL4 (which is supposed to be average) and there is a wide variation of skill in that handicap. I might benefit from a slop shot once or twice a match, but in general I hit what I am shooting at. I'll also tell you when I slopped one in, I'd rather be good and consistent than lucky.

It's the only league around, and I like to compete so it'll do for now

Banger

I'm glad to hear you encourage your players to play their best. I've heard from two players that their captain wanted them to lose... because if they didn't, their handicap would probably go up one, and it would disqualify their team, as their total team score would be over the limit.

I suppose the best way to ensure that one can always play their very best is to become a 7, and then try to win every game...

Flex

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I'm glad to hear you encourage your players to play their best. I've heard from two players that their captain wanted them to lose... because if they didn't, their handicap would probably go up one, and it would disqualify their team, as their total team score would be over the limit.

I suppose the best way to ensure that one can always play their very best is to become a 7, and then try to win every game...

Flex

That actually brings up a interesting point. Lets say a group of ppl decide to create a APA team and end up playing together for years. After awhile the handicap of the players goes up so much that they cannot play together anymore. Rather than splitting up the team the captain has the players lose on purpose or rack up a lot of innings so they reduce the SL.

I am not saying it is right but with the structure of APA and the 23 Skill Level max they are almost inviting ppl to try and manipulate the system.

 

[smashmouth]

Newton's second law, force=mass X acceleration.

A lighter cue that can be thrust forward more quickly does not always translate to stronger force, people who ARBITRARILY claim otherwise are incorrect and need to brush up on third grade science, period, the key word here being ARBITRARY

The often used baseball analogy is incorrect, aluminum bats in fact send balls further based on wider barrels and larger surface areas, a wooden bat of equal volume would be far too heavy, corked bats never truly worked for anyone

A better analogy imo,

Does a super fast Featherweight boxer generate the same force with his punches as a slow Heavyweight?


Break power comes from one's biomechanical movements, which is based on factors such as size and strength, this is a given, what is not a given are the correct movements one should be utilizing during their break based on their body type and biomechanics, we don't know this yet because it has not been properly studied the way say a golf club movement or baseball swing has, consequently we have all sorts of claims from players and manufacturers alike claiming what works for them is best for all.


It's trial and error at this point people, any claims to the contrary are simply unproven and most likely incorrect

FWIW, the happy medium I've observed is in the 19-22 oz range

 

[Flex]

That actually brings up a interesting point. Lets say a group of ppl decide to create a APA team and end up playing together for years. After awhile the handicap of the players goes up so much that they cannot play together anymore. Rather than splitting up the team the captain has the players lose on purpose or rack up a lot of innings so they reduce the SL.

I am not saying it is right but with the structure of APA and the 23 Skill Level max they are almost inviting ppl to try and manipulate the system.

My point exactly.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

My opinion is that APA actually wants teams to split as a way of bringing in new ppl. I mean how much of a difference would it make if the max was 24 or 25?